transcendent reaches all the way through

[3bob]

there is a lot of talk that looks down on form..yet I'd say the transcendent reaches all the way through form to us - proving such talk false or a misunderstanding.

Edited May 16, 2017 by 3bob

[3bob]

...and who is this "us" that the transcendent reaches all the way through form to, - I'd say to Itself revealing Itself.

Edited May 17, 2017 by 3bob

[allinone]

"us"? self is formed, a created thing what is not first in line of production.

[3bob]

is there a problem with realized Self in form? 

[Daeluin]

I've recently become aware of the three realms of illusion, form and formless... so is this thread talking about the illusory form in this human realm, or is it talking about the form realm, that uses what humans call emptiness as form in the form realm?

 

Also, it seems that the human illusory body is uniquely potenteized to cultivate the form and formlessness, using the anchoring of this illusory body to unify the "soul group" of souls that exist on these higher planes into one entity that can travel all three realms... apparently this is the type of "ascension" known as "descension", where the higher souls and oversoul are integrated into the body.

 

Another interesting facet of this illusory realm is the tales of humans stumbling into the other realms accidentally, in times when these other realms were more accessible when wandering through deep forests and misty, mysterious parts of earth. My personal opinion is that, just like this process of "descension", as the biodiversity of species on earth increases, and the refinement of how they all harmonize with each other increases, we develop these highly sophisticated - yet incredibly delicate - ecosystems. Within this harmony, within the refined energies between these individual species, is the operation of the planet itself working with the process of "descension", becoming an anchor to these other realms. Conversely, destroying these delicate balances pushes these realms further away, just as humans push spirit away by being unrefined and ever distracted.

 

Continuing the exploration, I think this relates to beliefs of a "flat earth".... more specifically, that as all these realms are anchored more closely together, we have more mysterious phenomena in operation, that bends the laws of physics as we know them. Rather than thinking of it literally as a flat earth, I think it is more easily thought of as space that is non-linear, where there is quite a bit of density existing and being held between these illusory atomic particles, such that when when one moves between these particles, what seems like a single human pace may be like crossing leagues of distance.

 

We can talk about what happens when a human transcendent reaches all the way through - but what happens when a planetary transcendent reaches all the way through?

[Jonesboy]

Form and formless are one and the same.

 

The body is energy as are all "things".

 

So I would agree with 3bob that transcendence reaches all things. How could it not?

Edited May 17, 2017 by Jonesboy

[dwai]

16 hours ago, 3bob said:

there is a lot of talk that looks down on form..yet I'd say the transcendent reaches all the way through form to us - proving such talk false or a misunderstanding.

The "transcendent" is always there, so there is no question of transcendence or reaching us through form, imho.

What is "missing" while in form (for almost all of us) is the knowledge of what we truly are. This is forgotten (for whatever reason) after being caught up in "samsara". 

 

While pure advaitins will hold steadfast to the statement that only Brahman is real and the world is artificial, it is only from the perspective of the non-dual. No one denies that the material universe does not have a relative sense of realness to it. 

 

Sometimes teachers take what seems like extreme rejection of the "form", but that is usually, as a teaching tool. If we take something out of context, we risk misunderstanding what is being conveyed. 

 

Hari Om Tat Sat!

[3bob]

2 hours ago, dwai said:

The "transcendent" is always there, so there is no question of transcendence or reaching us through form, imho.

What is "missing" while in form (for almost all of us) is the knowledge of what we truly are. This is forgotten (for whatever reason) after being caught up in "samsara". 

 

While pure advaitins will hold steadfast to the statement that only Brahman is real and the world is artificial, it is only from the perspective of the non-dual. No one denies that the material universe does not have a relative sense of realness to it. 

 

Sometimes teachers take what seems like extreme rejection of the "form", but that is usually, as a teaching tool. If we take something out of context, we risk misunderstanding what is being conveyed. 

 

Hari Om Tat Sat!

 

"The "transcendent" is always there" - umm, which was alluded to in post 3.  btw, a non-dual perspective is an oxymoron but I get your drift about Advaitins although I don't agree with that teaching  - and neither do many well recognized Guru lineages of thousands of years of succession. 

(which teach that Shakti is just as real as the Transcendent it is one with)

Om also

(edited)

Edited May 17, 2017 by 3bob

[3bob]

1 hour ago, Daeluin said:

I've recently become aware of the three realms of illusion, form and formless... so is this thread talking about the illusory form in this human realm, or is it talking about the form realm, that uses what humans call emptiness as form in the form realm?

 

Also, it seems that the human illusory body is uniquely potenteized to cultivate the form and formlessness, using the anchoring of this illusory body to unify the "soul group" of souls that exist on these higher planes into one entity that can travel all three realms... apparently this is the type of "ascension" known as "descension", where the higher souls and oversoul are integrated into the body.

 

Another interesting facet of this illusory realm is the tales of humans stumbling into the other realms accidentally, in times when these other realms were more accessible when wandering through deep forests and misty, mysterious parts of earth. My personal opinion is that, just like this process of "descension", as the biodiversity of species on earth increases, and the refinement of how they all harmonize with each other increases, we develop these highly sophisticated - yet incredibly delicate - ecosystems. Within this harmony, within the refined energies between these individual species, is the operation of the planet itself working with the process of "descension", becoming an anchor to these other realms. Conversely, destroying these delicate balances pushes these realms further away, just as humans push spirit away by being unrefined and ever distracted.

 

Continuing the exploration, I think this relates to beliefs of a "flat earth".... more specifically, that as all these realms are anchored more closely together, we have more mysterious phenomena in operation, that bends the laws of physics as we know them. Rather than thinking of it literally as a flat earth, I think it is more easily thought of as space that is non-linear, where there is quite a bit of density existing and being held between these illusory atomic particles, such that when when one moves between these particles, what seems like a single human pace may be like crossing leagues of distance.

 

We can talk about what happens when a human transcendent reaches all the way through - but what happens when a planetary transcendent reaches all the way through?

 

Not sure of all you say or mean, but the earth is becoming a heaven, her song reaches all the way through.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, 3bob said:

 

"The "transcendent" is always there" - umm, which was alluded to in post 3.  btw, a non-dual perspective is an oxymoron but I get your drift about Advaitins although I don't agree with it and neither do many well recognized Guru lineages of thousands of years of succession.  Om also

The "rejection" of the form is a necessary precondition in the Advaita Vedanta/Jnana Yoga path. If one doesn't negate all those things that one considers to be the self (Body, mind, thoughts and emotions, intellect - basically going through the 5 sheaths or panchakoshas, and thereby the "form" and it's various manifestations), one cannot easily find that which one truly is.  When one realizes that anything that the senses + mind apparatus perceives and conceives of, is essentially just modifications of consciousness, one can begin to do "self-inquiry". 

 

Yes there are many Guru lineages and various interpretations of Vedanta, even some which predate vedanta, such as Sankhya. But they don't complete the realization of either Brahman or Atman, unless they follow a path similar to Jnana Yoga. 

 

Even in Tantric systems, there are references to the direct method (Advaita style self-inquiry) and indirect methods (using mantras, yantras, ashtanga yoga) to help a seeker get to the "truth".  Not everyone can follow the direct method, as it requires pre-conditional qualities/qualifications that most don't have. That's why the indirect methods help prepare the seeker to eventually get to the Direct Method. 

[3bob]

I'd say that which springs from the Self is not negated by the Self...thus that which springs from Self is not false only a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of it may be false and needs whatever negating.

[dwai]

1 minute ago, 3bob said:

I'd say that which springs from the Self is not negated by the Self...thus that which springs from Self is not false only a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of it may be false and needs whatever negating.

Yes. But as a "method", the negation needs to happen, to get to the realization of the Self first. Otherwise, one is usually left staring at the finger instead of the moon. 

[3bob]

so it may seem, then again the Self reaches all the way through so to speak, thus who or what is really negating sure footedly equal to the power of the Self to reveal the Self?

Edited May 17, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

7 minutes ago, 3bob said:

so it may seem, then again the Self reaches all the way through so to speak, thus who or what is really negating sure footedly equal to the power of the Self to reveal the Self?

Indeed...that is an irony

[3bob]

agreed, a problematic irony - yet such is shattered by an unconditional and overwhelming grace!

 

Edited May 17, 2017 by 3bob

[dwai]

16 minutes ago, 3bob said:

agreed, a problematic irony - yet such is shattered by an unconditional and overwhelming grace!

 

Hari Om Tat Sat _/|\_