Opening words of Guanyinzi

[sufidao]

I found the very verbal understanding of the opening words of the Guanyinzi very difficult:

 

非有道不可言，不可言即道；非有道不可思，不可思即道。天物怒流，人事錯錯。若若乎回也，戛戛乎鬭也。勿勿乎似而非也。而爭之，而介之；而哯之，而嘖之；而去之，而要之。言之如吹影，思之如鏤塵，聖智造迷，鬼神不識。惟不可為，不可致，不可測，不可分。故曰天、曰命、曰神、曰玄；合曰道。

 

The challenging part, for me, specially begins from "若若乎回也...". Can anyone help me with a translation of it?

Thanks

[Taoist Texts]

天物怒流，人事错错然。若若乎回也，戛戛乎鬭也。

勿勿乎似而非也。而争之，而介之；而哯之，而啧之；而去之，而要之。

言之如吹影，思之如镂尘，圣智造迷，鬼神不识。惟不可为，不可致，不可测，不可分。

故曰天、曰命、曰神、曰玄；合曰道。”

Between the Heavenly creatures there is anger flowing, in the human doings strife on strife reigns.

It is thick and repeats itself, it goes on and on in struggle.

Hurriedly is everything as if true but false. They are in fight yet in mediation; they spew out each other yet contain each other; they are chased out yet required.

The words are as if blowing away a shadow, the thoughts are as if engraving on dust, even the wise ones are confused, even the ghosts and spirits can not understand.

Yet there is something that is unfeasible, unreachable, immeasurable, indivisible.

It is called the Heaven, the fate, the spirit, the darkness. Jointly it is called Dao.

[Marblehead]

Well, I'm glad that last line had some optimism to balance out all the prior pessimism.

 

 

[Taoist Texts]

thats what separates the ghosts from the spirits

[sufidao]

3 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

天物怒流，人事错错然。若若乎回也，戛戛乎鬭也。

勿勿乎似而非也。而争之，而介之；而哯之，而啧之；而去之，而要之。

言之如吹影，思之如镂尘，圣智造迷，鬼神不识。惟不可为，不可致，不可测，不可分。

故曰天、曰命、曰神、曰玄；合曰道。”

Between the Heavenly creatures there is anger flowing, in the human doings strife on strife reigns.

It is thick and repeats itself, it goes on and on in struggle.

Hurriedly is everything as if true but false. They are in fight yet in mediation; they spew out each other yet contain each other; they are chased out yet required.

The words are as if blowing away a shadow, the thoughts are as if engraving on dust, even the wise ones are confused, even the ghosts and spirits can not understand.

Yet there is something that is unfeasible, unreachable, immeasurable, indivisible.

It is called the Heaven, the fate, the spirit, the darkness. Jointly it is called Dao.

Thank you very much for this translation. It solved most of the problems I had. However, I'm still wondering why 若若 is translated as "thick", or 啧 as "containing".

As for 言之如... I think it cannot be so generalized. It's about Dao again and it has an object because of 之. "Speaking of it is like ...", "Thinking of it is like...". Therefore, it is Dao that cannot be understood even by ghosts and gods.
 

Thanks again

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, sufidao said:

Thank you very much for this translation. It solved most of the problems I had. However, I'm still wondering why 若若 is translated as "thick",  

[ruò ruò]  

若若

若若，指众多的样子；长而下垂的样子。语出《列子·力命》：“今昏昏昧昧，纷纷若若，随所为，随所不为。”

 

 

Therefore, it is Dao that cannot be understood even by ghosts and gods.

How can that be if the last line says

 

故曰天、曰命、曰神、曰玄；合曰道

 

"gods are dao"?

 

 

[sufidao]

 

30 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

 

Therefore, it is Dao that cannot be understood even by ghosts and gods.

How can that be if the last line says

 

故曰天、曰命、曰神、曰玄；合曰道

 

"gods are dao"?

 

 

 

 

In my opinion, here, in the context of 鬼神, "gods" for 神 must be differentiated from " the Spirit" or "God" for 神 as a designation of Dao in "故曰天、曰命、曰神、曰玄；合曰道". 

[sufidao]

55 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

[ruò ruò]  

若若

 若，指众多的样子；长而下垂的样子。语出《列子·力命》：“今昏昏昧昧，纷纷若若，随所为，随所不为。”

 

 

So, 若若 refers to dangling or a state of being hanged. 

How about 啧? I couldn't find any proper meaning in the dictionaries I know.

[Taoist Texts]

5 minutes ago, sufidao said:

How about 啧? I couldn't find any proper meaning in the dictionaries I know.

啧

（嘖）

zé 　 ㄗㄜˊ

　1. 争辩，人多嘴杂：～有烦言。

　2. 古同“赜”，深奥。

http://www.zdic.net/z/16/js/5567.htm