Taoist and Buddhist formula of cultivation

[exorcist_1699]

From Taoist point of view,  there is a Buddhist formula of cultivation :  Abstinence(' 戒')   => Samatha ('定')  => Enlightenment  ('慧' )  which  nearly equals to Taoist formula  of   Jing => Qi => Shen . Without serious abstinence in every aspect of our life , stoppage  of the leakage of jing  and accumulation of qi is impossible ,and  without jing and qi's  accumulation  ,  Samatha,  a persistent settlement and consolidation of an emptied mind,  not just for seconds , but  for minutes  , even hours , can hardly be  maintained  . And without a lasting  Samatha ,  there is no way to attain Enlightenment . In fact , Samatha is like playing on the edge of  an  upcoming  black hole , the longer you are capable of staying there , the bigger the possibility you can see it happens..

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[[email protected]]

I dare if abstinence is equal to jing cultivation. Jing cultivation has concrete methods. Jing is the substance that maintains our vitality, and what is meant under the first term?

In Taoism there is a strong consequent system if transition jing-qi-shen based on a scope of methods and practices.

[EmeraldHead]

Mindfulness meditation > Concentration meditation > Insight meditation ?

[exorcist_1699]

On 5/22/2017 at 9:02 AM, Arramu said:

Mindfulness meditation > Concentration meditation > Insight meditation ?

 

Mindfulness and concentration are mindsets of daily life  and scientific reasoning which most people mistaken them as the spiritual ways that should be followed in their cultivation . In fact, besides the initial stage of some focus on the dantian or on the breathing to settle the mind, it is by using detachment and negation of the existing one  , the  pseudo mind ,  that  is the way we should apply  . And , that is why we  keep talking about  the use of an  " emptied mind ", a non- fluctuated , consolidated one to deal with qi . 

 

Of course, a fluctuated mind is related to lung breathing , a post-heavenly way  we live  ; may be it is also why in emergence , people  are asked to hold their  breathing so that their mind can think clearer ....anyway , it implies that  there is  a unique  breathing , very different from the ordinary  one,  that  help consolidating our mind ;  it is  naive to think that the  trivial mind we get  can settle itself by suppressing the ups and downs of those ideas,  through our own efforts to  become a great One itself  ; conversely , the harder we suppress it , the more it stands against us  . A mind  become great  because it knows how to make use of qi , especially the pre-heavenly one .

 

Using the pre-heavenly  to counteract the post-heavenly   , using nothingness to contain beings .. is always  Taoist strategy , as " Can Tong Qi"   <<周易參同契>> says :

 

"以無制有, 器用者空"  ( " Using nothingness  to contain beings  as using utensils because of its emptiness " ) 

Edited May 23, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[EmeraldHead]

I don't have experience with what you're talking about. But:

 

15 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Mindfulness and concentration are mindsets of daily life

Concentration can be used to raise your mentation: increasing the size of the mind, the clarity of the mental screen and basically developing your brain. It increases the chi flow to the flow, quite strongly, not subtly.

Concentration is used to enter into samadhi/the jhanas.

 

I was reffering to this kind of meditation. I think it's, in a nutshell the meditation that buddhism (partly) and raja yoga practice/teach. Not mindsets of daily life, is it.

 

Now do you know how to explain what you were reffering to as emptiness/nothingness in comparison to what I just mentioned above?

[exorcist_1699]

On 2017/5/23 at 3:05 PM, Arramu said:

I don't have experience with what you're talking about. But:

 

Concentration can be used to raise your mentation: increasing the size of the mind, the clarity of the mental screen and basically developing your brain. It increases the chi flow to the flow, quite strongly, not subtly.

Concentration is used to enter into samadhi/the jhanas.

 

 

 

Concentration doesn't let people  enter Samadhi , a persistent ,consolidated emptied mind that  hardly can people  experience in their  daily life .  If concentration can do , then it  means if we prefer and focus , we can eliminate  all those up and down of our mind by our own will , which  unfortunately is not case . On the contrary , It is  our mind's   detachment  or  negating   the current  stream of  consciousness  , yet  expect no achievement  ... ,such a mindset that helps . 

 

 

Taoist way further supplements this process by adding jing and qi  for an emptied  mind can be grown and nourished through them much easier.

Edited May 24, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[EmeraldHead]

3 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

those up and down of our mind by our own will

you should try trataka for 90 days for concrete results of that, 1hour a day.

Edited May 24, 2017 by Arramu

[qicat]

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Chinese-Energetic-Medicine/dp/0991569016/ref=pd_cp_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0991569016&pd_rd_r=PVGYPNDK0393AVRMTNT3&pd_rd_w=8BJex&pd_rd_wg=RTaVt&psc=1&refRID=PVGYPNDK0393AVRMTNT3

Chapter 17 Dao Yin Breathing methods. Contains Shaolin  ( Buddhist) and Taoist versions along with explanations of healing properties and danger associated with it ( i.e. contradictions is some symptoms exist). If you are not asking just from "empty talk" purpose, I suggest you try both methods and see for yourself... Best way to learn IMHO...( and find what is suitable for YOU). 

 

meow.

 

p.s. Don't get old books version (2005). It was added in 2015 version. 

[[email protected]]

There are two points.
First, trying and comparing two systems requires doing them in parallel for a long time until any effect appears.
Second, this effect might be rather mind-dependent (remember about placebos effect).
Unfortunately this is a weak point of just comparing two systems or practices to see what will be.

Rgrds, Ilya

[EmeraldHead]

17 hours ago, qicat said:

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Chinese-Energetic-Medicine/dp/0991569016/ref=pd_cp_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0991569016&pd_rd_r=PVGYPNDK0393AVRMTNT3&pd_rd_w=8BJex&pd_rd_wg=RTaVt&psc=1&refRID=PVGYPNDK0393AVRMTNT3

Chapter 17 Dao Yin Breathing methods. Contains Shaolin  ( Buddhist) and Taoist versions along with explanations of healing properties and danger associated with it ( i.e. contradictions is some symptoms exist). If you are not asking just from "empty talk" purpose, I suggest you try both methods and see for yourself... Best way to learn IMHO...( and find what is suitable for YOU). 

 

meow.

 

p.s. Don't get old books version (2005). It was added in 2015 version. 

Thank you for the suggestion. The titles do not seem to be bad at all: https://www.qigongmedicine.com/medical-qigong-books/. Have you got like a pdf version for it, or know where to get one?

[qicat]

3 hours ago, Arramu said:

Thank you for the suggestion. The titles do not seem to be bad at all: https://www.qigongmedicine.com/medical-qigong-books/. Have you got like a pdf version for it, or know where to get one?

 I bought a book for $50 on amazon. Worth it. PDFs if you find any is an old version and some stuff is not included there. Plus, I always respect authors' rights to be paid for their work. 

[shazlor]

[exorcist_1699]

On 2017/5/25 at 7:32 PM, [email protected] said:

There are two points.
First, trying and comparing two systems requires doing them in parallel for a long time until any effect appears.

..........

 

Not necessarily, because  there is a common ground for both systems :  A consolidated  emptied mind ;

 

In fact,  some higher Taoist way prefers people  to  attain  an emptied mind   ,rather than to  visualize a qi-ball  between their hands , first so as  to initialize qi .  The advantages of following this path are :

 

1)  People then understand how the  Buddhist way works , and its difference from the Taoist ; 

 

2)A detached ,emptied  mind likely helps you avoid many potential troubles that are going to  arise because  people always think that they can overdo their mind ( focus harder , for example ) to  get more and stronger qi , which  unfortunately  is not true; 

 

3) An emptied mind is a thorough solution to jing leakage , especially the nocturnal ones , other

ways are  unlikely ; 

 

4)Placed  right in the middle  of  people's  road towards immortality ,  emptied mind is  a hurdle  sooner or later they have to pass  , why not  deal with it earlier ?

 

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

On 5/23/2017 at 10:44 AM, exorcist_1699 said:

Using the pre-heavenly  to counteract the post-heavenly   , using nothingness to contain beings .. is always  Taoist strategy , as " Can Tong Qi"   <<周易參同契>> says : "以無制有, 器用者空"  ( " Using nothingness  to contain beings  as using utensils because of its emptiness " ) 

U read 制 wrongly here, in this usage it is not counteract or contain.)

[exorcist_1699]

22 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

U read 制 wrongly here, in this usage it is not counteract or contain.)

 

Thanks your comment  although I don't agree with it.

[voidisyinyang]

Hypothetically if it does not mean "counteract or contain" then what does it mean "hypothetically"?

 

I just corresponded with Pregadio about the very text as I disagreed with his intepretation - using the wrong analysis of the Tai Chi diagram to explain the text. I have details on my blog http://ecoechoinvasives.blogspot.com and also the "differences between taoism and buddhism" thread.

 

Quote

it is not counteract or contain

 

This could be very interesting. If it is "not" this then what is it. I have my own ideas but I don't want to spam this thread.

 

thank you.

[exorcist_1699]

Many people know that Taoism emphasizes the importance of both Xing ( our spiritual nature, some kind of hidden meta-Mind) , and Meng ( life composed of jing and qi ) ,however  which one we should cultivate first  can be a big problem  ：

 

- Meng first, Xing later (  " 先命後性" ) :  This approach can be summarized in one Taoist famous formula :  jing =>qi =>shen  . It is a conventional and popular way  yet  not necessarily the only  one we can choose  . Some of its  benefits are   :  it lets people start easier , and also enables  them to proceed  in a step by step way ; however , there are  some problems in this approach, for example, the more jing people  accumulate at their lower abdomen, the less likely  they can contain it  , so  in the end hardly can they accumulate enough jing and qi to have a quality jump to shen.

 

or

 

-  Xing first , Meng later ("先性後命") :  Note that this Xing-first approach  is not borrowed from Buddhism , but  something originally rooted in  Taoism before Buddhism coming into China ( The  sit-and-forget method  mentioned in Zhuangzi is one of the proofs for  such  claim )  . This approach is also said to be  first-difficult-later-easy (" 先難後易")   , but it gets the benefits of what  I mentioned above  : You try consolidating  a mindless Mind first before projecting  it onto  qi ...in that case , what you get more likely be something closer to  the  high-quality pre-heavenly one rather than something low-end and post-heavenly .

Edited July 5, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Walker]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2017 at 2:44 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

 

Mindfulness and concentration are mindsets of daily life  and scientific reasoning which most people mistaken them as the spiritual ways that should be followed in their cultivation . In fact, besides the initial stage of some focus on the dantian or on the breathing to settle the mind, it is by using detachment and negation of the existing one  , the  pseudo mind ,  that  is the way we should apply  . And , that is why we  keep talking about  the use of an  " emptied mind ", a non- fluctuated , consolidated one to deal with qi . 

 

Of course, a fluctuated mind is related to lung breathing , a post-heavenly way  we live  ; may be it is also why in emergence , people  are asked to hold their  breathing so that their mind can think clearer ....anyway , it implies that  there is  a unique  breathing , very different from the ordinary  one,  that  help consolidating our mind ;  it is  naive to think that the  trivial mind we get  can settle itself by suppressing the ups and downs of those ideas,  through our own efforts to  become a great One itself  ; conversely , the harder we suppress it , the more it stands against us  . A mind  become great  because it knows how to make use of qi , especially the pre-heavenly one .

 

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 8:17 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

Concentration doesn't let people  enter Samadhi , a persistent ,consolidated emptied mind that  hardly can people  experience in their  daily life .  If concentration can do , then it  means if we prefer and focus , we can eliminate  all those up and down of our mind by our own will , which  unfortunately is not case . On the contrary , It is  our mind's   detachment  or  negating   the current  stream of  consciousness  , yet  expect no achievement  ... ,such a mindset that helps . 

 

高.

[Taoist Texts]

On 6/30/2017 at 6:57 PM, exorcist_1699 said:

 emptied mind is  a hurdle  sooner or later they have to pass  , why not  deal with it earlier ?

Because it is not a hurdle, its a dead-end trap. One prominent sign of a trap is that it has no definition. 

Q. What exactly is an empty mind?

A. Err...umm...well, its a mind that's empty, ok?

 

Sure, why not.)

[Walker]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Because it is not a hurdle, its a dead-end trap. One prominent sign of a trap is that it has no definition. 

Q. What exactly is an empty mind?

A. Err...umm...well, its a mind that's empty, ok?

 

Sure, why not.)

 

Back you come to make a fool of yourself. What Exorcist is talking about is defined and detailed in exacting, penetrating detail in text after text after text after text after text after text. That you have failed to grasp this just proves the point many Daoists and Buddhist love to make: the world is covered by beggars who've become so accustomed to extending their palms that they never think to fish for the gold nuggets in their pockets. 呜呼哀哉.

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, Walker said:

What Exorcist is talking about is defined and detailed in exacting, penetrating detail in text after text after text after text after text after text.

Oh, I am sorry. Foolish of me not to know it. Spare a link for a poor old beggar, will ya mister?

[Starjumper]

On 5/21/2017 at 6:34 AM, exorcist_1699 said:

From Taoist point of view,  there is a Buddhist formula of cultivation :  Abstinence(' 戒')   => Samatha ('定')  => Enlightenment  ('慧' )  which  nearly equals to Taoist formula  of   Jing => Qi => Shen . Without serious abstinence in every aspect of our life , stoppage  of the leakage of jing  and accumulation of qi is impossible ,and  without jing and qi's  accumulation  ,  Samatha,  a persistent settlement and consolidation of an emptied mind,  not just for seconds , but  for minutes  , even hours , can hardly be  maintained  . And without a lasting  Samatha ,  there is no way to attain Enlightenment . In fact , Samatha is like playing on the edge of  an  upcoming  black hole , the longer you are capable of staying there , the bigger the possibility you can see it happens.

 

Is this a Buddhist comedy routine you are trying to pin on Taoism?  

[Taoist Texts]

On 7/2/2017 at 6:38 PM, voidisyinyang said:

Hypothetically if it does not mean "counteract or contain" then what does it mean "hypothetically"?

This could be very interesting. If it is "not" this then what is it. I have my own ideas but I don't want to spam this thread. 

thank you.

It means "to produce". " Using nothing  to contain  produce something, is like using a vessel because of its emptiness " 

[Taoist Texts]

On 7/7/2017 at 2:38 AM, Starjumper said:

 

Is this a Buddhist comedy   

Come to think of it, it is comical when ppl pontificate in soundbites they can't explain. When asked to, first it's an angry outburst, then crickets. 

[Walker]

On 7/6/2017 at 7:50 PM, Taoist Texts said:

Oh, I am sorry. Foolish of me not to know it. Spare a link for a poor old beggar, will ya mister?

 

Start with Liu Yiming's commentary on the 悟真篇. If you can't see an empty mind being defined there, you won't see it anywhere.