Taoist and Buddhist formula of cultivation

[Taoist Texts]

Of course I won't. Alternatively, it is you who is seeing things that are not there. ) At any event, this discussion i not about me seeing anything. I kindly asked to provide a definition, instead of copying and pasting and being done with it, you are being evasive. Which is fine.

 

As to Liu - he does not give any definitions for EH. In fact, he refutes it.) Which was my first point.

 

无心不是着空无，如有着空入假途。

 

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Come to think of it, it is comical when ppl pontificate in soundbites they can't explain. When asked to, first it's an angry outburst, then crickets. 

 

Well that too, what struck me as comedy was their 'formula' to arrive at enlightenment is ridiculous, some parts are backwards and the other parts are unnecessary.  Plus they are misinterpreting what some of the process they describe really means.  Typical Buddhist stuff.

 

Of course some Taoist practices are comedy routines too, maybe a lot of those came from Buddhism.

Edited July 8, 2017 by Starjumper

[exorcist_1699]

On 2017/7/6 at 11:13 AM, Walker said:

 

 

高.

 

 Thanks a lot.

[exorcist_1699]

Talking about the  emptied mind  and its relation with qi to such an extent and some people still can't get it , then  who should be blamed?

 

Chinese  Taoists are always accused of acting like   misers  who don't want to share their wealth with foreigners , maybe from this case,  you can find that such claim  hardly be true . 

Edited July 9, 2017 by exorcist_1699

[Taoist Texts]

2 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

who should be blamed?

Those who keep talking about the 'empty mind' but never say what it is exactly)

Edited July 9, 2017 by Taoist Texts

[Walker]

On ‎7‎/‎8‎/‎2017 at 4:33 PM, Taoist Texts said:

As to Liu - he does not give any definitions for EH. In fact, he refutes it.) Which was my first point.

 

无心不是着空无，如有着空入假途。

 

 

No, he doesn't. You misread this passage.

 

In the first sentence, "空无/kongwu" is being presented to describe an extinguished void state, also called 顽空/wankong, which he is admonishing readers not to conflate with the real meaning of empty mind, which is described thoroughly and repeatedly throughout the book I just directed you to.

 

In the second sentence he is echoing the spirit of both the Laozi as well as the Heart Sutra (texts which are both indispensable to Complete Reality Daoism, of which Liu was an adherent, a fact that will remain an obstacle to understanding Dragon Gate teachings for people with aversions towards what they perceive to be Buddhism) saying that being attached to emptiness (着空/zhaokong/zhuokong) leads one onto a false path (假途/jiatu). Key to understanding these texts is being clear that an empty mind is not the same thing as being attached to emptiness.

 

21 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Well that too, what struck me as comedy was their 'formula' to arrive at enlightenment is ridiculous, some parts are backwards

 

If it's a real Daoist practice then 1. of course it's got its backwards parts, and 2. of course it is likely to elicit laughter.

 

4 hours ago, exorcist_1699 said:

Talking about the  emptied mind  and its relation with qi to such an extend and some people still can't get it , then  who should be blamed?

 

無咎。夏蟲不可以語冰。

[Jox]

2 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Those who keep talking about the 'empty mind' but never say what it is exactly)

 

Maybe it can not be said ... with the words ... just saying ... 

[Taoist Texts]

30 minutes ago, Walker said:

No, he doesn't. You misread this passage. In the first sentence, "空无/kongwu" is being presented to describe an extinguished void state, also called 顽空/wankong, which he is admonishing readers not to conflate with the real meaning of empty mind, which is described thoroughly and repeatedly throughout the book I just directed you to...... Key to understanding these texts is being clear that an empty mind is not the same thing as being attached to emptiness.

Thank you but you still not answering the question, which is probably my fault.) I will ask again. What is an empty mind?

11 minutes ago, Jox said:

Maybe it can not be said ... with the words ... just saying ... 

Entirely possible. But then what use is talking about it?

[Wu Ming Jen]

On 7/6/2017 at 11:31 PM, Taoist Texts said:

It means "to produce". " Using nothing  to contain  produce something, is like using a vessel because of its emptiness " 

This is important for those who like mixed drinks. Emptiness of tao is also the producer of all things.

 

We are born with jing, chi and shen out of emptiness treat them as the priceless treasures they are.

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, Jox said:

Maybe it can not be said ... with the words ... just saying ... 

 

Sure, it is rather common for people to make up words that are based on nothing in reality and then engage in frantic mental jerking off about it as if it actually exists or means something, when in fact it only exists in their imagination and they imagine it means whatever is convenient for them to believe at the moment, with each person having a different view.  Quite common in spiritual/religious circles.  It makes discussions useless.

 

There also appears to be a bit of a language/translation problem here.

 

Another thing I've found is that Buddhists frequently invade Taoist forums with their comedy routine with the same attitude that Christian fundamentalist evangelists have.  If you allow it they may take over the Taoist forums with their pontificating.  I suggest that Mr. Exorcist take this circus over to the general discussion section where it belongs.

Edited July 9, 2017 by Starjumper

[Walker]

15 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

Thank you but you still not answering the question, which is probably my fault.) I will ask again. What is an empty mind?

 

From the book I mentioned, Liu Yiming's 《悟真直指》:

 

真性本体，如地之不动不摇，同之异之。虽境遇事物万殊，而总以平等之心应之，如千灯之照，无非光照之，灯不一而光则一。这个性无所增，无所减，无所取，无所舍，火焚水漂，俱皆不能妨碍，亦如地之山重也能载的，水冲也能受的，万物伤损，俱皆容的。地如是，性即如是。闻见知觉，一无所有，强而名之，惟空而已。空非寂灭之谓，乃因物付物，随方就圆，以无心应之也。

 

An empty mind is 性/xing.

[Taoist Texts]

1 hour ago, Walker said:

An empty mind is 性/xing.

Not quite) Here Liu means not just of any old xing but 佛性非同异，千灯共一光。佛性非同异，千灯共一光。Buddha's nature. (Buddhatā). Which is of course very different from what was bandied about in this topic.

[Walker]

22 minutes ago, Taoist Texts said:

Not quite) Here Liu means not just of any old xing but 佛性非同异，千灯共一光。佛性非同异，千灯共一光。Buddha's nature. (Buddhatā). Which is of course very different from what was bandied about in this topic.

 

That you're making the mistake you're making here is the reason I suggest you read the whole of Liu's book on the 悟真篇 cover-to-cover.

[Taoist Texts]

16 hours ago, Starjumper said:

make up words...it means whatever is convenient for them to believe at the moment, with each person having a different view.  Quite common in spiritual/religious circles.  It makes discussions useless.

 

Exactly. Like this 'empty mind' buzzword. By that Exorcist obviously meant something from the very beginning of cultivation, while Walker explained that it is the very end result of  long and arduous practice - achieving the buddha-nature. Totally different, with a very tenuous connection between the two.)

[Taoist Texts]

27 minutes ago, Walker said:

That you're making the mistake you're making here

Hmm, you did notice that i just quoted Liu, nothing else? This is 佛性 buddha nature is it not? Is it the same thing Exorcist talks about (in the same breath with qi-balls hehe)?

29 minutes ago, Walker said:

is the reason I suggest you read the whole of Liu's book on the 悟真篇 cover-to-cover.

Thanks but I know Liu chapter and verse, dont you worry Walker). I have read all of his 1000 page legacy, (including even his ophthalmology manual). and translated probably half  of it.

[Walker]

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 0:15 PM, Taoist Texts said:

Not quite) Here Liu means not just of any old xing but 佛性非同异，千灯共一光。佛性非同异，千灯共一光。Buddha's nature. (Buddhatā). Which is of course very different from what was bandied about in this topic.

 

On ‎7‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 1:10 PM, Taoist Texts said:

Exorcist obviously meant something from the very beginning of cultivation, while Walker explained that it is the very end result of  long and arduous practice - achieving the buddha-nature. Totally different, with a very tenuous connection between the two.)

 

That is not what I "explained." You project your imagination both onto internet discussions as well as ancient writings. You have failed to grasp fundamental aspects of the philosophy that you dismayingly claim to have mastered and be capable of teaching.

 

Now. It is the same xing. Before cultivation, during cultivation, after cultivation, only one xing. They call it 佛性/foxing/Buddha nature, they call it 真性/zhenxing/true nature. Same thing. If you really knew Liu Yiming "chapter and verse," you could not make this mistake. You would know that in the exact same book that we're discussing, just a few pages after the quote I presented you with, there is the following passage, which deserves to be translated for those who would be led astray by your gross mischaracterization of Quanzhen teachings:

 

我性佛性，万国九州，诸方人类之性，无有两样，处圣不增，处凡不减，如一轮明月，千潭普现。此性也可小可大，可高可低，可方可圆，可浅可深，可长可短。不落大小高低方圆长短深浅之迹。但百姓日用而不知之耳。

"My nature [is] Buddha nature. It is the nature of [all] humanity in all directions in the myriad nations of the nine continents. There are no differences. Being a sage does not add [to it]; being a common person does not subtract [from it]. It is like a bright moon, [reflected] in each of a thousand pools. This nature can be small and it can be great; it can be high or it can be low; it can be square or it can be round; it can be shallow or it can be deep; it can be long or it can be short. Still, all people use it every day without knowing it."

 

Had you the good sense and humility to actually find a teacher instead of prematurely ejaculating your conclusions into the public realm, you would have been told that this xing common and fundamental to all humanity is revealed by practice, because it is original and eternal; it is not the "end result of long arduous practice." It is not different for sages and common people. It is what is.

 

Knowing full well the rules of the board and that I am being plenty impolite, I here publicly protest that Taoist Texts is a delusional contrarian fuckwit whose mistakes are too fundamental to be written off as "just differences in opinion." It is truly too bad that on more than one occasion Exorcist has attempted to share highly valuable insights here, only to have his threads derailed by a "me too me too I speak Chinese too look at me" shitbird who wants to nitpick at phantoms that have nothing to do with what Exorcist is even talking about.

 

Anyway, there will be no convincing the master who read a whoolllllllllleeee 1,000 pages, so, goodbye.