Punishment from Heaven

[exorcist_1699]

In the area of Science, you are requested to explain truth as clearly as possible, even by mathematical equation , so that no ambiguity or misunderstanding will arise.

 

In the area of Tao, too clearly and publicly explaining it is said to be bringing you punishment from Heaven, so , it better be whispered .

[Procurator]

In the area of Tao, too clearly and publicly explaining it is said to be bringing you punishment from Heaven, so , it better be whispered .

finally something sane has been said.

Edited December 29, 2007 by Procurator

[Bum Grasshopper]

In the area of Science, you are requested to explain truth as clearly as possible, even by mathematical equation , so that no ambiguity or misunderstanding will arise.

 

In the area of Tao, too clearly and publicly explaining it is said to be bringing you punishment from Heaven, so , it better be whispered .

 

 

My understanding is that the Tao is not King like and doesn't dole out "punishment". The Tao sees good and bad, kind and evil as two side of the same coin.

 

What is it that we are being punished for and who is the Judge doling out the punishment?

Edited December 28, 2007 by Bum Grasshopper

[Taiji Bum]

In the Zohar telling mystical secrets brings down punishment too. I never understood why. In fact, not to sound crazy or anything, but before I started talking about my mystical experiences a few years ago I heard an audible voice say, "Seek the hidden things of God is silence." Immediatly I had the intuition that someone from heaven had warned me to keep my mystical experiences quiet.

 

At first a was cowed but after a bit I remembered this is the 21st Century and we know about psychology and archtypes and it was more likely my own mind talking to me than somebody from heaven. But that leaves the question, "Why does the mind prefer secrecy?"

[minkus]

Heaven and earth are ruthless,

 

Trampling the myriad creatures like straw dogs.

 

The wise are ruthless,

 

Considering the people as straw dogs.

 

 

Is something i yust stole from the ttc, so i think Grasshopper is right when he says heaven doesnt judge good or bad .. certainly not in this way.

 

Still i can understand certain aspects of the tao when spoken to loud (when reveiled) can have devastating effect when used unwisely. Maybe its more of a warning to keep yourself away from harm ?

[joeblast]

I think its all a matter of not giving people false things to chase after. If you are having cool experiences, I want them too! I think in a proper context (i.e. here) with like minded people that know what they are discussing...

 

 

 

(not that anyone knows anything with complete and utter certainty...)

[freeform]

Anthromorphosizing the Tao will only lead you to a Western shaped, male God character.

 

we project too much of our humanness onto Tao and so we come up with concepts such as 'punishment from heaven'.

 

There is no punishment without reward and certainly no reward without punishment. Two sides of a coin. We tend to prefer rewards, right? we look at the shiny reward side of the coin and with a smug grin drop it into the piggybank of our consciousness... We believe we have now successfuly grasped the reward without the punishment... but ofcourse the coin was dropped into our piggy bank and the coin inveriably has two sides... so the punishment is in there (however blind we are to it) - and it does punish us from within... it's just unconscious so we tend to think the punishment comes from outside events. Funny thing is - the same punishment will carry on punishing (in the same way, with different packaging) untill we become conscious of it! (karma?)

 

We can still play with coins and piggybanks, but if we want to play in the spiritual way, we have to always be conscious of the punishment and reward of every perception - and that's being aware of both sides at the same time - never leaning towards one side or the other (attachment), but accepting the coin whole (rejecting nothing) - this is when punishment and reward both nourish us beyond any way we can even begin to imagine.

 

Re. speaking about our mysterious experiences - an experience registers in the whole of our being - from the head (finite, individual) to the belly (infinite, everything). Most mystical perceptions are first triggered in the mysterious belly - as they come up the back (in most ppl) the experience is more and more individualised - at the level of the heart the unfathomable idea becomes a feeling and as this mystical perception rises further, it is further filtered from emotional to sensory information (visual and auditory) - in the head level we can translate the sensory perception into words. As the idea turns into words, it then cycles back down the front, dying. It turns back into sensory perception, then feeling/emotion, then back down into the formless everythingness where it came from.

 

(this is how (in my experience) mysterious thoughts work - track a few energetically - it's fascinating)

 

so what happens is that something huge, ungraspable, enormous and mysterious goes through a cycle of individuation and is simplified to an enormous level to become words. Most of us have a very weak connection with the belly - and certainly the front channel is almost completely closed for most, and besides we have a tendency for individuation and head-centredness. So by speaking of, writing about, even thinking logically about mysterious truths, we create more blockages, more misunderstanding, more 'asleepness'... (unless ofcourse we've really opened the front channel and the thoughts are allowed to die properly - the central channel also has something to do with it, certainly when we stop all thinking the central channel is engaged and then things become interesting)

Edited December 28, 2007 by freeform

[Yoda]

Thoughts not being allowed to run their course...

 

Maybe that top down restlessness is what the "punishment from heaven" is referring to.

[thelerner]

I agree w/ Freeform, about the Tao not being anthropomorphized then turned into a 'look here' it agrees with me perfectly . The Tao is mysterious, not to be explained, but danced with.

 

I think its closer that when the unaware/common man/busy person is shown the Tao, they see foolishness.

 

 

Michael

[Procurator]

. But that leaves the question, "Why does the mind prefer secrecy?"

That is a very thoughtfull question. Except it is not true generally - the mind doesnt care about secrecy. Most of the people that hear voices (mystical or scyso) are quite eager to share their experiencies.

 

 

Anthromorphosizing the Tao

we project too much of our humanness onto Tao and

yeah so we dont project, we just talk about bellies and channels and thoughts..no projection at all here.

Edited December 29, 2007 by Procurator

[freeform]

yeah so we dont project, we just talk about bellies and channels and thoughts..no projection at all here.

 

actually no, you're mistaken - all this talk is certainly a projection (sarcasm back at you )

 

yes it's anthropomorphizing, but in a conscious way. like I say - the thought rises from the formless up to become a fixed form - such as a word... we use the word and then let it desolve back into the formless. This way you dont tend to hold on to a thought, but you dont ignore it either, you can begin to delight in the dance that happens.

 

when this process is not flowing and we're not conscious of it, we start to believe that 'fixed thoughts = reality' - reality becomes a very narrow, repetitive, automatic experience lead by the mind.

 

so we can use fixed thoughts, we can project humanness onto tao, we can think of god as a big, naked white man with a beard in the sky, judging and controlling people's fate. But for most people that thought sticks in the head and becomes 'the truth' - whether they're conscious of this happening or not.

 

I'm suggesting that it's possible for the thought to rise and become 'the truth' and just as quickly we let it wilt away back into the formless, untill a we begin again with a new 'truth'. It's kind of like breathing...

 

this is the microcosmic orbit from a different perspective.

[exorcist_1699]

The point is : Tao is not just a system of philosophy; if it is ,then it better explains and defines its concepts and categories as clearly as possible so that discussion or argument is possible . Nor is it just something spiritual as other religions .

 

Capable of really intervening and reversing the process of physical life of humans is the reason why after reaching certain point, Tao becomes unspoken....and, seldom can you find a guy who is close to or has reached that point , dare to risk testing it true or not

Edited December 30, 2007 by exorcist_1699

[三江源]

 

 

so what happens is that something huge, ungraspable, enormous and mysterious goes through a cycle of individuation and is simplified to an enormous level to become words.

 

...speaking of, writing about, even thinking logically about mysterious truths, we create more blockages, more misunderstanding, more 'asleepness'...

 

 

 

Freeform you are always so generous with your explanations, and so acurate with your articulations. I do appreciate it.

 

When you hold the lamp up against the face of Eros, he flies away. There are many mythical parallels, counselling caution and respect with regard to those areas of life which happen outside the mundane.

 

Funnily enough, I was thinking about the possibility of closed threads on this board, so that there might be discussion by invitation only of certain experiences.

[Cameron]

Conceptualizing what the Tao thinks of you is asking alot from beginners.

 

I prefer to say follow what your teacher asks of you. If your teacher tells you not to mention some things publically don't. If your teacher says it's cool to mention some things publically I don't see the problem.

 

That's with the assumption you have an awakened teacher to begin with of course.

[三江源]

Thankfully the answer comes with instiinct and experience. Many of us have an instinct not to take the lid off the pot when things are cooking.

 

 

Many of us at some time or another experience the loss of numinosity/energy when it drains away from exposure too soon or inapropriately.

 

For those that are chiefly extrovert, and very active verbalisers, they may need to 'be told' to contain their experience, in order for their boundaries to strengthen.

[doc benway]

Speaking of profound things and challenging people's belief systems (even passively or unintentionally) is one of the most certain ways of creating conflict. Understanding Dao requires one to let go of all belief systems and is therefore a potentially sensitive subject for discussion. It is better left to personal experience rather than discussion or explanation. That's my interpretation of the sentiment.

Edited December 30, 2007 by xuesheng

[Procurator]

Capable of really intervening and reversing the process of physical life of humans is the reason why after reaching certain point, Tao becomes unspoken....and, seldom can you find a guy who is close to or has reached that point , dare to risk testing it true or not [/size]

to accumulate the Gong of saving the living beings you have to speak - but in a very specific manner.