So you're telling me the Islamic State still exists???

[Aetherous]

Our complacency is what caused this.

By "our" I refer to every person who downplays the problem of Islamist terrorism, who are inevitably part of our collective societies. Anyone who uses the word "Islamophobia", who seeks for integration of Islam into civilized societies with Coexist bumper stickers, who compares Islamic terrorism to the Crusades, who calls it a religion of peace, etc...is flat out responsible for the murder of this little girl.

I also refer to the rest of us, who are half sensible, who see the problem of Islamism...but who are yet too impotent to do anything that solves the problem. That includes listening to the former group of people, and even allowing them to have a platform to stand on and speak. If we were actually the responsible guides of society that we must be, then we wouldn't let the former group of people have any power, ever.

Just my view...when you let a murderer into your house, don't be surprised when they kill your family and houseguests. The former group of people has let the murderer in, while the rest of us have sat back and (perhaps complained, but simply) watched.

How do we solve the problem of Islamism? At what point, after this keeps happening time and time again, will we learn?

[Marblehead]

I'm glad you started this in "Off Grid".

 

I do agree with what you said in the post.  It is likely that we will disagree regarding the causes and resolutions to this problem though.

 

Terrorism of innocents should never be tolerated.

 

[Brian]

Wait...

 

I thought they were the JV team?

[johndoe2012]

Not sure.

 

From what I know *not talking* about it ie downplay the problem of Islam is a big part of this.

At this point I would simply call for a ban on Muslim immigration in Europe. And I wouldn't care if I broke any international laws.

 

The problem then are native Muslims who travel to Syria to get weapons training and lessons in psychopathy and then come back and start killing Europeans.

 

 

[Aetherous]

31 minutes ago, Brian said:

Wait...

 

I thought they were the JV team?

 

I don't understand

[Taoist Texts]

Obama responded: "The analogy we use around here sometimes, and I think is accurate, is if a jayvee team puts on Lakers uniforms that doesn’t make them Kobe Bryant." (For the nonsports fan, JV stands for junior varsity, and it usually means a high school or college's secondary team.)

[Brian]

13 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

I don't understand

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/09/03/spinning-obamas-reference-to-isis-as-a-jv-team/?utm_term=.ee0e19981840

[Aetherous]

5 minutes ago, Brian said:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2014/09/03/spinning-obamas-reference-to-isis-as-a-jv-team/?utm_term=.ee0e19981840

 

So glad that problem is gone now.

[johndoe2012]

Part of this problem which cannot be ignored was the invasion of Iraq by the US. 

 

Killing 500.000 Iraqis and laying the ground for ISIS. 

 

The military industrial complex in the US should also take their part of the blame for this sickness in the world. 

[dust]

I make no defense of Islam. Strict Islam is a problem; 'liberal' Islam is a gateway to the strict stuff. No defending it.

 

As far as your argument, though...

 

What do you do about paedophilia? Human trafficking? Rape? Murder? When it's committed by anyone, Muslim or otherwise?

 

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/findings/

World: 48,500,000 estimated enslaved

https://www.globalslaveryindex.org/region/europe/

Europe: 1,243,400 estimated enslaved; most from Europe, Nigeria, China, Brazil

 

What are you doing about slavery? About the trafficking of children, women, men? People forced into lives of sex or abuse or hard labour?

 

When the dark web haunt of a group of tens of thousands of paedophiles is found and shut down, and you're horrified at the extent of the problem, what do you do about it? What do you expect to be done about it?

 

I don't expect you to be able to find a solution, about these things or about Islamism. All of these things are unacceptable, and they are all incredibly difficult to fight (and we do have security forces working on all these fights). All must be battled against with constant vigilance. If any one of us can do our part in that battle, we should.

 

So why are you particularly angry about terrorism? Why single out one particular case? Why aren't you berating us all for allowing trafficking and paedophilia to continue? Why are you so vocal about those cases involving Islam, but appear to ignore the fact that the majority of human traffickers in the world, for example, are not Muslim?

 

 

I, for one, find the slavery/trafficking/paedophilia/abuse stuff, in general, much worse than the issue of Islamism. And yet for some, it's only something to really shout about when Hillary Clinton is accused of being involved in it, or when Muslims are doing it... why is that?

[Aetherous]

9 minutes ago, dust said:

Why aren't you berating us all for allowing trafficking and paedophilia to continue?

 

Actually, I've been fairly involved in my private life in that matter. The subject was basically banned from discussion on the forum this past year, so I don't speak of it here.

Also, this is a thread about a particular subject...why deviate from it? Make a separate thread.

 

12 minutes ago, dust said:

When the dark web haunt of a group of tens of thousands of paedophiles is found and shut down, and you're horrified at the extent of the problem, what do you do about it? What do you expect to be done about it?

1

 

Well, spread awareness, give tips to organizations that work at dismantling it if you see anything, donate to organizations that actually do something about it.

Doing such things doesn't feel like enough. I expect the complete removal of perpetrators of child abuse and terrorism from the face of the earth.

But please, stick to the subject matter at hand.

[Aetherous]

15 minutes ago, dust said:

So why are you particularly angry about terrorism?

 

Because our former President consciously allowed it to take root, perhaps even funded it, and we've watched it spread into other countries. Having served in Iraq, I was there to make sure that precise thing didn't happen. I'm angry because they murder innocent people, and some people let them out of self righteous virtue signaling.

It's something so easy to put a stop to...just annihilate them. We have the means and manpower. And yet, years have passed, and more lives have been taken. People are still ignorant and try to dissuade us from naming the cause: Islamism.

How can someone not be angry about this?

[Kar3n]

Education and awareness are the best weapons against human trafficking. Having no fear of getting involved on a community level in protecting, defending and educating those most susceptible is a must!

 

While human trafficking is a great topic, this thread is about the bombing in Manchester and the senseless death of a child.

[Aetherous]

33 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

Part of this problem which cannot be ignored was the invasion of Iraq by the US. 

 

Killing 500.000 Iraqis and laying the ground for ISIS. 

 

The military industrial complex in the US should also take their part of the blame for this sickness in the world. 

1

 

You really believe that created the ideology of the IS? They're just wanting revenge against the West?

Did Islamic terrorism not happen before the invasion of Iraq?

[Jetsun]

The majority of people killed and hurt in this are likely to be children, and ISIS are publicly calling the victims "Crusaders". I know there have been plenty of terrorist incidents recently but this is a new low for me, I can almost understand extremists attacking political figures and hitting places of significance, but to bomb a bunch of children going to a concert.... that is a different level of psychopathy 

[Brian]

1 minute ago, Aetherous said:

 

You really believe that created the ideology of the IS? They're just wanting revenge against the West?

Did Islamic terrorism not happen before the invasion of Iraq?

Yeah, I have repeatedly walked back through history on this forum and demonstrated that no century since Mohammed and no decade in modern times (when news of such things is better available) has been free from violence by the mujahideen. When the US became independent of Britain, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams asked the ambassador from the Ottoman Empire why they were attacking US-flagged ships. The answer was that they are infidels and the Quran requires it.

[Apech]

I used to live and work in Manchester for many years and am familiar with all the locations, the bombing and arrests, so this latest horror has affected me strongly.

 

I think the thing that scares people is that here is an ideology which somehow allows otherwise intelligent and peaceable young men and women to think its the thing to do to strap explosives to themselves and blow up innocent children and adults.  I have no problem with Muslims and if they are born into that culture they probably have little choice.  But they must be asking themselves about how it is being taught and interpreted.  I'm a little sick of all this standing with Manchester, or Paris or where-ever and the virtue signalling and  rhetoric of politicians and would like to hear some kind of ideas about a solution being voiced.

 

 

[Brian]

 

More seriously, contrasting the First and Second Barbary Wars is time well-established.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_Wars

[johndoe2012]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

 

You really believe that created the ideology of the IS? They're just wanting revenge against the West?

Did Islamic terrorism not happen before the invasion of Iraq?

 

Well it is a historical fact.

 

US invaded, fired the whole Iraqi army which created immense hatred against the Americans and no income for many iraqis. Al-Qaeda used this to recruit Iraqis and eventually ISIS was created out of the whole mess.

 

Yes Islamic terrorism happened before but you cannot deny American involvement.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jul/06/intelligence-files-support-claims-iraq-invasion-helped-spawn-isis

[johndoe2012]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Yeah, I have repeatedly walked back through history on this forum and demonstrated that no century since Mohammed and no decade in modern times (when news of such things is better available) has been free from violence by the mujahideen. When the US became independent of Britain, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams asked the ambassador from the Ottoman Empire why they were attacking US-flagged ships. The answer was that they are infidels and the Quran requires it.

 

So it is pure coincidence that the violence erupted after the US-led Iraqi invasion? 

[Brian]

Another contributing factor to the creation of ISIS specifically (as a subset of the mujahideen in general) is the little operation the US State Department was running in Libya -- the one where we were arming the "moderate rebels" to go into Syria to overthrow Assad. We were being very careful, though; we would ask "you aren't a terrorist, are you?" and anyone who said "Yes!" would have to go to the back of the line before getting their RPG launcher or mortar...

[Brian]

1 minute ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

So it is pure coincidence that the violence erupted after the US-led Iraqi invasion? 

Which violence?  The 1983 bombing of the US Embassy in Beirut?  You'll have to be more specific.

[Brian]

4 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

 

So it is pure coincidence that the violence erupted after the US-led Iraqi invasion? 

I'm not much of a "coincidence" kinda guy, johndoe.

[liminal_luke]

Since when is it such a crime to take a nuanced view?  Religious texts are one thing, what people actually believe is another.  In any religion, there will always be fundmentalists and people who "pick and choose" from a smorgasboard of beliefs and practices according to what makes sense to them.  Putting up a Christmas tree because it`s a fun family tradition is not a gateway behavior to preaching the gospels on a street corner with a megaphone -- thank God.

 

Regardless of what it may say in the Koran, the vast majority of Moslems are not violent. Pretending otherwise will not lead to peace.

Edited May 23, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

From the Guardian:

Quote

 

The man who murdered 22 people and injured 59 others has been named as Salman Ramadan Abedi, a Mancunian of Libyan descent.

 

Police confirmed the 22-year-old’s identity after officials in the United States passed it to news reporters, apparently against the wishes of the British police and security services.

 

Live Manchester Arena bombing: thousands gather for vigil in city centre – live news

Police say attacker died after detonating ‘improvised explosive device’ in foyer of concert hall

 Read more

Abedi was known to the security services but was not part of any active investigation or regarded as a high risk. He was viewed as a peripheral figure in much the same way as the Westminister attacker, Khalid Masood.

 

The police and security services are trying to establish whether he worked alone or was part of a wider network that helped him with the bomb. Although Islamic State has claimed responsibility, the police have found no evidence to support this. 

 

Even before Abedi was named, several members of south Manchester’s Libyan community wondered whether the suicide bomber was one of their own: perhaps one of the young men who had fought in Libya during the 2011 revolution, some of whom came home traumatised and angry.

 

But none appear to have suspected that British-born Abedi – a slightly withdrawn, devout young man, always respectful to his elders – would become a mass murderer.

 

“Salman? I’m astonished by this,” one member of Manchester’s Libyan community told the Guardian. “He was such a quiet boy, always very respectful towards me. His brother Ismail is outgoing, but Salman was very quiet. He is such an unlikely person to have done this.”

 

Salman and his brother Ismail worshipped at Didsbury mosque, where their father, who is known as Abu Ismail within the community, is a well-known figure. “He used to do the five and call the adhan. He has an absolutely beautiful voice. And his boys learned the Qur’an by heart.

 

“Abu Ismail will be terribly distraught. He was always very confrontational with jihadi ideology, and this Isis thing isn’t even jihad, it’s criminality. The family will be devastated.”

 

Abu Ismail Abedi, who worked as an odd-job man in Manchester, is thought to be in Tripoli. His wife, Samia, is thought to be in Manchester. The couple are believed to have another son, Hashem, and a daughter, Jomana.

 

“Abu Ismail comes and goes between here and there,” the family friend said. “I can’t believe he [Salman Abedi] would have been radicalised in Tripoli. All those types have been driven out of the city. It must have happened here.

 

“But what was he doing, murdering all those people. There must have been somebody influencing him. It’s terrible. He was off his head.”