So you're telling me the Islamic State still exists???

[windwalker]

condolences to the families of lost ones.

Edited May 23, 2017 by windwalker

[Brian]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Since when is it such a crime to take a nuanced view?  Religious texts are one thing, what people actually believe is another.  In any religion, there will always be fundmentalists and people who "pick and choose" from a smorgasboard of beliefs and practices according to what makes sense to them.  Putting up a Christmas tree because it`s a fun family tradition is not a gateway behavior to preaching the gospels on a street corner with a megaphone -- thank God.

 

Regardless of what it may say in the Koran, the vast majority of Moslems are not violent. Pretending otherwise will not lead to peace.

How many people who put up a Christmas tree because it's a fun family tradition have also memorized the Bible?  This was not a person who just happened to be affiliated with Islam.  Curiously, people with a casual relationship with Islam are not the ones strapping on bombs.  Personally, I don't know anyone who thinks all Muslims are violent but I have noticed that an inordinate number of those committing violent acts in the West are not the Islamic equivalents of the C & E Christian (that's "Christmas & Easter" -- those people who would say "Oh, yes, I'm Christian" but couldn't recite more than three verses of the Bible, don't believe most of the little they've learned about it and only go to church on those two days).

[dust]

3 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

Actually, I've been fairly involved in my private life in that matter.
 

 

I am sorry to hear that.

 

It wasn't my intention to bring up an issue that has affected you in any direct manner.

 

 

3 hours ago, Aetherous said:

Well, spread awareness, give tips to organizations that work at dismantling it if you see anything, donate to organizations that actually do something about it.

Doing such things doesn't feel like enough. I expect the complete removal of perpetrators of child abuse and terrorism from the face of the earth.

 

Well I agree, mostly (I think the word "expect" is a little far-fetched.. you can't believe it possible to completely remove violence and perversion from the face of the Earth..?)

 

 

3 hours ago, Aetherous said:

But please, stick to the subject matter at hand.

 

I am. We can talk about any horrifying crime, this isn't some non-sequitur crusade against human trafficking. I just picked the things I picked because they are particularly horrifying to me.

 

The thing I was aiming to get at is that there are many horrifying things going on, and that whenever a terrorist attack happens, we hear calls for Islam to be banned, and immigration to stop... and I get it, but where are the calls for having a licence to use the internet? For all men to be checked for child porn? For drone forces patrolling the streets, peeking through windows to make sure nobody's being violent?

 

Additionally,

 

1. Disallowing any group of people to stand up and speak is exactly the kind of nonsense you should be fighting against if you disagree with a religion like Islam; we need as much opinion as possible in the open, from all sides, not hidden away, not forcibly removing power from those with whom we disagree (remove their power democratically, peacefully, by being clever and having truth on your side)

 

2. To continue your house metaphor: you've got all sorts of people in your house, and you're raising people in your house who are undoubtedly going to commit atrocious crimes.. is the Muslim the only one to worry about? Why so selective with this metaphor?

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

  Curiously, people with a casual relationship with Islam are not the ones strapping on bombs. 

 

Of course not.

 

And yet people with a casual relationship with Islam. innocent people, will get hurt if we go in and just "bomb them all"  -- the "simple" solution suggested by some here.  I`m not saying there`s not a place for a little targeted assassination; we`ve got the right --obligation even -- to protect ourselves and sometimes violence, however much we might hate it, is unavoidable.  We should also take reasonable steps to protect our borders from those who would do us harm. (Unlike some particularly courgeous Bums I`ve been reading about lately, when I leave my house I lock the door.)

 

Terrorists want to terrify us -- and they`ve largely succeeded.  Many people are very afraid, and it seems to be getting worse. I don`t pretend to know the nitty gritty about what should be done about the problem of Islamic violence, but I do know this: nobody makes good decisions when they`re scared.  As a country, we need to take a deep breath and find our center.  Because only when we are in touch with our centers (our central channel in Taoist terms) do we have a chance of taking action which will actually bring peace.  

 

Aetherous said ..."It's something so easy to put a stop to...just annihilate them."  This makes me nervous.  When I`ve taken this approach in my personal life it hasn`t led to harmony, and I don`t recommend it now.   

Edited May 23, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Brian]

32 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Of course not.

 

And yet people with a casual relationship with Islam. innocent people, will get hurt if we go in and just "bomb them all"  -- the "simple" solution suggested by some here.  I`m not saying there`s not a place for a little targeted assassination; we`ve got the right --obligation even -- to protect ourselves and sometimes violence, however much we might hate it, is unavoidable.  We should also take reasonable steps to protect our borders from those who would do us harm. (Unlike some particularly courgeous Bums I`ve been reading about lately, when I leave my house I lock the door.)

 

Terrorists want to terrify us -- and they`ve largely succeeded.  Many people are very afraid, and it seems to be getting worse. I don`t pretend to know the nitty gritty about what should be done about the problem of Islamic violence, but I do know this: nobody makes good decisions when they`re scared.  As a country, we need to take a deep breath and find our center.  Because only when we are in touch with our centers (our central channel in Taoist terms) do we have a chance of taking action which will actually bring peace.  

 

Aetherous said ..."It's something so easy to put a stop to...just annihilate them."  This makes me nervous.  When I`ve taken this approach in my personal life it hasn`t led to harmony, and I don`t recommend it now.   

I am in complete agreement, Luke.

[Brian]

39 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Of course not.

 

And yet people with a casual relationship with Islam. innocent people, will get hurt if we go in and just "bomb them all"  -- the "simple" solution suggested by some here.  I`m not saying there`s not a place for a little targeted assassination; we`ve got the right --obligation even -- to protect ourselves and sometimes violence, however much we might hate it, is unavoidable.  We should also take reasonable steps to protect our borders from those who would do us harm. (Unlike some particularly courgeous Bums I`ve been reading about lately, when I leave my house I lock the door.)

 

Terrorists want to terrify us -- and they`ve largely succeeded.  Many people are very afraid, and it seems to be getting worse. I don`t pretend to know the nitty gritty about what should be done about the problem of Islamic violence, but I do know this: nobody makes good decisions when they`re scared.  As a country, we need to take a deep breath and find our center.  Because only when we are in touch with our centers (our central channel in Taoist terms) do we have a chance of taking action which will actually bring peace.  

 

Aetherous said ..."It's something so easy to put a stop to...just annihilate them."  This makes me nervous.  When I`ve taken this approach in my personal life it hasn`t led to harmony, and I don`t recommend it now.   

I think, also, that there is value in understanding those who declare themselves to be your enemy, and in taking them anyone at their word when they express intent to do harm.  This isn't a fear-based response or a "kill them all and let God sort them out" solution.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Brian

[Gerard]

This is how you solve the problem in the Middle East (bad karma to those Western countries involved):

 

1. Britain is now the second biggest arms dealer in the world (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/britain-is-now-the-second-biggest-arms-dealer-in-the-world-a7225351.html)

 

2. The $18bn arms race helping to fuel the Middle East conflict (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/23/the-18bn-arms-race-middle-east-russia-iran-iraq-un)

 

 

 

[windwalker]

Trump made the distinction very clear.

It's one of Good and Evil something that all can see and decide for themselves.

 

Those who are evil are losers, the solution is very simple.  They got to go.

 

How and what is done is really a matter of will.  Once a Tipping Point is reached I'm sure many will find the will to do the right thing

[Aetherous]

3 hours ago, dust said:

 

I am sorry to hear that.

 

It wasn't my intention to bring up an issue that has affected you in any direct manner.

 

 

No, I didn't mean it like that. I've just reported things that I've seen, and been involved in some other ways...not a victim.

 

3 hours ago, dust said:

Well I agree, mostly (I think the word "expect" is a little far-fetched.. you can't believe it possible to completely remove violence and perversion from the face of the Earth..?)

 

 

Do I think it will ever be the case that no one on Earth is violent or perverted? No, of course not...but I expect that we remove them when we find them.

 

3 hours ago, dust said:

is the Muslim the only one to worry about?

 

 

When it comes to terrorist attacks, 99.9% yes. We're talking about a particular subject here...it's not like I think terrorism is the only problem the world faces.

[Aetherous]

3 hours ago, dust said:

Disallowing any group of people to stand up and speak is exactly the kind of nonsense you should be fighting against if you disagree with a religion like Islam; we need as much opinion as possible in the open, from all sides, not hidden away, not forcibly removing power from those with whom we disagree (remove their power democratically, peacefully, by being clever and having truth on your side

 

You might not like it, but if I were the leader of a country right now, talk that tried to make Islamists seem anything less than murderous would be outlawed, and people would be thrown in prison for speaking like that. That's just me...sorry not sorry!

Free speech is a nice idea, sounds wonderful...but I think our free speech has gotten us into this mess. Our overly valued variety of opinions has murdered kids now, by proxy. I could care less about the opinions of those who disagree with me on this topic...I'd shut them down if I could in any way. Sorry for thinking this way. I'm glad I can freely speak of it. Democracy is only valuable when citizens are only of above average intelligence...if not, they vote themselves into a hole.

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

Do I think it will ever be the case that no one on Earth is violent or perverted? No, of course not...but I expect that we remove them when we find them.

 

Remove them permanently.

 

[Aetherous]

3 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

innocent people, will get hurt if we go in and just "bomb them all"  -- the "simple" solution suggested by some here

 

To be clear, I don't suggest a solution of collateral damage in any way. I don't think all Muslims should be rounded up and killed. I do think they need to be closely watched, perhaps banned from entering civilized countries, and prevented from being capable of terrorist attacks if they already live in these countries. But hey, I'm a counter-terrorist extremist.

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

 

You might not like it, but if I were the leader of a country right now, talk that tried to make Islamists seem anything less than murderous would be outlawed, and people would be thrown in prison for speaking like that. That's just me...sorry not sorry!
 

 

I`m on record here as saying that most people who identify as Moslem are not violent.  Some of them are casually Islamic, in the same way that someone might be a C&E Christian.  I also believe there are devout Moslems who believe in peace and struggle to come to terms with the violent passages in their religious texts.  

 

Do you know about the passage in the Old Testament/Torah that says the people of Amelek should be wiped from the face of the earth, ie anniliated?  Here`s a sampling:  'Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'"  On the face of it, killing Amalekites is a mitzvah, or good deed, just like visiting someone in the hospital or honoring your parents.  And yet there are many peace loving religious Jews.  Some of them struggle mightily with the apparently genocidal intent of this verse.  I think some peace-loving religious Moslems also grapple in an analogous way with the violent parts of their texts.  

 

(And...I also agree with Brian that we should take people at their word when they say they want to hurt us.)

 

So anyway, there you have it.  I believe the vast majority of Moslems are far from murderous.  Do you really think I should be imprisoned for saying so?  How much time would you give me?  

 

 

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

 

To be clear, I don't suggest a solution of collateral damage in any way. I don't think all Muslims should be rounded up and killed. .

 

Glad to hear it.

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Remove them permanently.

 

What will happen and is being talked about is that those who go there to join with them will not be allowed to comeback to where ever they came from.

 

This is a big worry with a lot of the foreign losers coming  back after they figure out that maybe  having others that can shoot back at them is not all its made out to be.

 

The other thing that will put a quick stop to this is making the families responsible with possible reparation of the family to countries  of origin for recent refugees or immigrants .  For local born citizen losers,,the family is held responsible for repayment of loses and damage...

 

Hold  accountable those in charge..one ofthe main cause of much of the current problems. 

They are failing in their basic responsibilities of the state or counties they serve. 

 

What is nice, is they are talking about eliminating them, not containing or reforming them or appeasement. 

 

about time, unfortunately maybe a little late for some....

 

Quote

Japan Rail in fact routinely charges families of suicide victims more than US $2 million, a financially devastating sum of money for most; although it is unclear whether any families can actually pay such a high bill.

The purpose is to reinforce how the suicide victim should not have created a burden for others and to reinforce the legitimacy of the shared cultural space of the commute.  

 

In Japan if one decides to jump in fount of a train your family gets to pay for the clean up,,,,sounds sensible.   

 

 

 

 

  

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

To be clear, I don't suggest a solution of collateral damage in any way. I don't think all Muslims should be rounded up and killed. I do think they need to be closely watched, perhaps banned from entering civilized countries, and prevented from being capable of terrorist attacks if they already live in these countries. But hey, I'm a counter-terrorist extremist.

 

 

I lived in Manchester (or nearby) and worked there for over 20 years.  It has always had a Muslim community and that community is quite successful - having a large middle class and professional base. it is by no means poor.  They are not oppressed in fact you could argue they get too much state support.  Most of the community are now or include 2/3 generation people who were born in England, educated there and so on.  They have plenty of opportunity to live a prosper.

 

This bomber - which I posted about above - had Libyan parents who fled from Gaddafi - so they were refugees originally.  he was quiet, respectable and well behaved.  He was not what you might call a maniac or drugged up crazy person or a criminal.  So given that - no banning order would have prevented this - since he was English.  The security forces did not have him high on the radar so what prevention would you think should have happened?  Lock up young men in camps???  

 

I think two things need to happen 1 ) say strongly that this is connected to Islam and 2 ) do an in depth study of the causes and conditions which turn young men into killers - once we understand this we can take intelligent action to cut out the disease.

 

Also I would like your President to live up to his promises and stop sucking up to the Saudis - he's a fucking joke.

 

Thats all.

[windwalker]

Quote

Also I would like your President to live up to his promises and stop sucking up to the Saudis - he's a fucking joke.

 

Thats all.

Quite, that is all. 

So pray tell what promises would you have him live up to in only a little over 100 days in office?

Did you ask the same of our last President of 8 yrs in office. Did he live up to his promises, was he a fucking joke too. 

 

A fucking joke,,,,such language considering no one is laughing now. 

 

Import people from a war, and some how don't expect to import the war....

carry on, 

[Aetherous]

54 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

So anyway, there you have it.  I believe the vast majority of Moslems are far from murderous.  Do you really think I should be imprisoned for saying so?  How much time would you give me?  

 

 

I believe the vast majority inwardly cheer every time one of these attacks happen. Everyone roots for their home team, which in this case is Islam.

You are a decent guy with good intentions...but yes, in the theoretical world where I'm supreme ruler, you'd be imprisoned for saying what you did. 25 years sounds reasonable to me. I view that kind of thinking as one of the causes of why these things keep happening, as explained in the opening post...as a cause of the perpetuation of mass murder attacks, it should be put to a stop.

I heard something recently: Islamists are snakes in the grass, and moderate Muslims are the grass which hides the snake. I would also add that appeasers and apologists are the fertilizer, making the grass more abundant.

This is just my view, and I'm not in power, so it's kind of irrelevant. The thing about discussion boards is that they're for discussion, but sorry to say on this subject that's not really what I'm looking for. Why even make a thread in the first place? The ones who died are worth talking about...it would be shameful to have no mention of it on this forum.

[Aetherous]

18 minutes ago, windwalker said:

stop sucking up to the Saudis

 

I thought his speech was decent. He actually used the phrase "Islamic terror" in it right in front of them, and told them to drive out the terrorists from their countries numerous times. It was like a teacher scolding mischevious children...which is appropriate. 

But I agree that playing nice with the country who admitted to funding terrorism last year is pretty lame. It seems like it was all about $.

[windwalker]

7 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

I thought his speech was decent. He actually used the phrase "Islamic terror" in it right in front of them, and told them to drive out the terrorists from their countries numerous times. It was like a teacher scolding mischevious children...which is appropriate. 

But I agree that playing nice with the country who admitted to funding terrorism last year is pretty lame. It seems like it was all about $.

We've had 8yrs of one approach, a bad one, one that never worked and couldn't work.

There was 50 other Arab countries there.  What message should one give them? 

Judging by the reception the President received  the one they got was the one they've been waiting to hear....

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by windwalker

[liminal_luke]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

 

I believe the vast majority inwardly cheer every time one of these attacks happen. Everyone roots for their home team, which in this case is Islam.

You are a decent guy with good intentions...but yes, in the theoretical world where I'm supreme ruler, you'd be imprisoned for saying what you did. 25 years sounds reasonable to me. I view that kind of thinking as one of the causes of why these things keep happening, as explained in the opening post...as a cause of the perpetuation of mass murder attacks, it should be put to a stop.

I heard something recently: Islamists are snakes in the grass, and moderate Muslims are the grass which hides the snake. I would also add that appeasers and apologists are the fertilizer, making the grass more abundant.

This is just my view, and I'm not in power, so it's kind of irrelevant. The thing about discussion boards is that they're for discussion, but sorry to say on this subject that's not really what I'm looking for. Why even make a thread in the first place? The ones who died are worth talking about...it would be shameful to have no mention of it on this forum.

 

Even though you`re not in power (whew!) it does matter that you`d imprison me for 25 years for saying most Moslems are not murderous -- and not just to my mother. It matters because you`re not alone: there`s a whole slew of people who think pretty much like you.  Imagine, if you will, what it might feel like to be a kid growing up in a country where a good chunk of the population thinks that someone should be imprisoned for saying that their family is less than murderous.  You probably don`t think of yourself as hateful, but I bet a Moslem kid listening to you would feel hated.  

 

OK, here`s the clincher.  You know what happens to people who grow up thinking the world hates them?  Some proportion of them -- not all, but the ones who are, for a variety of reasons, particularly susceptible -- become terrorists.  When you make someone feel that they are less than human, they`ll sometimes act in less than human ways.  Which of course confirms your suspicions.  So what do you do -- say that they`re all murderers and continue the cycle.

 

The solution is to stop thinking of the "home team" in narrow terms.  You are familiar, I know, with the Buddhist practice of Metta.  People start out wishing kindness for themselves or their close relatives, and then expand out first wishing the larger community well, and ultimately sending good vibes to all sentient beings.  I can`t honestly claim this kind of broad heartedness at the moment, but this is what I`m shooting for.  Someday my "home team" will be the whole universe.  I won`t cheer merely for the United States or the Democrats or middle-aged white gay men.  I`ll feel connected with beings who seem profoundly different from me -- Bible beating Southern Baptists, young black rap musicians, stray catepillars crossing my path.  Everybody will be on my team.  And I will cheer for each and every one.

 

(Doesn`t mean I won`t also shoot you if you try to kill me though.)  

 

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Aetherous]

9 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

OK, here`s the clincher.  You know what happens to people who grow up thinking the world hates them?  Some proportion of them -- not all, but the ones who are, for a variety of reasons, particularly susceptible -- become terrorists.

I stopped reading there. So ridiculous.

[redcairo]

5 hours ago, Aetherous said:

Free speech is a nice idea, sounds wonderful...but I think our free speech has gotten us into this mess. ... I could care less about the opinions of those who disagree with me on this topic...I'd shut them down if I could in any way. Sorry for thinking this way. I'm glad I can freely speak of it.

 

I agree with your larger point but there is some humor in the contradiction there.

[liminal_luke]

1 hour ago, Aetherous said:

I stopped reading there. So ridiculous.

 

Call my ideas ridiculous.  Refuse to read another word I write.  Report me to the moderators and circulate a petition asking to get me banned from the forum.  Swear.  Place me on ignore.  Just don`t imprison me for 25 years -- that´s a step too far.

[redcairo]

One of the problems I encountered in adulthood was gradually realizing how profoundly misindoctrinated I'd been throughout childhood. When I left high school for example:

 

* I hated christianity with a knee-jerk, mouth-frothing frenzy. I thought the crusades were basically a money-based hoax using religion to inspire the idiots and proved that 'organized religion' especially that one was the worst in the world and 'white religious fanatics' were a big problem even here and now. I believed that probably the main reason muslims had been doing international terrorism that I'd witnessed since the 1970s (Yassir was big back then) was because we were so mean to them so of course they didn't like us.

 

Then I learned just enough of history to realized that the Crusades were not merely a whim of an arrogant king who wanted money. That there was actually a reason why both noble's sons and poor boys were willing to sell everything they owned to buy weapons or armor and go fight. That the number of places all over europe which had been attacked, invaded, and 'converted' (that usually meant mass death and slavery) by 'Islamists' was extensive and the slavery issue (of every race) extensive and that by the time it came around to 'fight back' many felt like it was a survival issue and the only chance.

 

Then I learned that islamic terrorism actually dated to basically, islam's founding close enough, and had been applied not only to just about every country on earth, every race of people, gradually from the time of its inception until the present, but that plenty of this predated the modern era (last 50 years) of the US getting involved in a major way in the middle east.  Does our involvement drive more people hating us? Certainly it does, and should. Did we cause Islamic Terrorism? No, that's basically inseparable from the larger topic of Islam given its range of countries, races, and years perpetuated.

 

And so on. I got that info from growing up in california and going to public school. I had no other sources of info. I didn't go to church (brief period as a teen, topic never came up). I didn't talk to my parents (very dysfunctional family life). I had very little interaction with friends (on room restriction for about six years though I had school. But there, don't think it ever came up).

 

So somewhere between 'media' and 'school' I had come to the idea that

a/ Muslims were only blowing up innocent people because the USA was mean to them and

b/ the Crusades had no good cause to come about and

c/ The biggest threat was really Christianity.

 

So... how did the sources combine to bring about this belief system in a kid?  And talking with others my age over the years esp. those from where I was, other people got the same ideas as 'beliefs' without ever realizing it. So it wasn't just me; it's a larger effect.

 

And why? What motive/agenda/circumstance would WANT that impression conveyed?

 

Many of the ridiculously biased media people today, were biased just as I was growing up, and truly believe they're right by now. Now those indoctrinated are doing the indoctrination. Probably that's been the case for at least 30 years. So at this point we're doubling-down.

 

When someone believes something growing up, new experiences tie into those existing beliefs. Eventually it's a solid web and you cannot change that belief in them without seriously threatening or messing with a huge range of psychological belief systems. At best they hit cognitive dissonance and fight back rabidly. At worst they 'break' from the overall impact and begin degrading, psychologically, bad situation. Successful propaganda doesn't just provide wrong information. It creates entire generation of people who are basically damaged goods in terms of ever being able to correctly perceive reality in that area.

 

Meanwhile islamists are still raping/murdering/enslaving everybody around them, including of course, their own countries and fellows.

 

And it's a valid argument that most Muslims are not blowing up concert stadiums. But then again, there are many tigers in the world. Most of them are not killing anybody I know. But if one killed someone I know, I would be wary about tigers. If lots of them killed lots of people I at least heard of, I would think it was pretty fair to label them dangerous and make sure Tigers were not put in situations where they had that opportunity. Even though most of them have not and never will hurt any human. Potentially they might. Back when it was ok to care about protecting your country, people, family and person, this would be sufficient reason to make some clear rules.

 

The human traits of 'label it' and 'build a wall to keep it out' may seem archaic in behavior, but remember the reason humanity is here to have the argument at all, is because we survived. And we survived because we made labels, and we made rules to protect ourselves from the most "potentially" dangerous things, and we built walls to protect our cities and kingdoms from enemies.

 

RC

[windwalker]

 

 

He talks about 6 steps

now we have a step 7

 

step 7  allow the new president to get rid of the  "losers"

with a little time, step 7 will cancel out the other 6. 

  

Edited May 24, 2017 by windwalker