Crossing the great river

[Starjumper]

What is the meaning of the advice that says it is favorable to cross a great river? 

Edited May 25, 2017 by Starjumper

[Marblehead]

It is valid only if you want to get to the other side.

 

[Marblehead]

However, I think there is something in the "Art Of War" about that.  Can't recall what or where at the moment.

 

[cold]

So it doesn't have anything to do with why the chicken crossed the road?

[Marblehead]

22 minutes ago, cold said:

So it doesn't have anything to do with why the chicken crossed the road?

No.  If you are a chicken you should not be attempting to cross a great river.  Just stay on your side.

 

[Daeluin]

Crossing the river denotes a big undertaking.

This could really be anything.

 

There are four timeless hexagrams, which are in operation in every moment.

Heaven over Heaven ䷀

Earth over Earth ䷁

Water over Water ䷜

Fire over Fire ䷝

 

Heaven and Earth, represent the original Yin and Yang of the universe; the parents of all things.

 

The cantong qi says:

 

"Qian ☰ and Kun ☷ are the door and the gate of change,"

the father and the mother of all hexagrams.

Kan ☵ and Li ☲ are the inner and the outer walls,

they spin the hub and align the axle.

Female and male, these four trigrams

function as a bellows and its nozzles.

 

Fire and Water represent the nozzles giving momentum to the energy of Heaven and Earth.

 

Fire ☲ represents light, the conscious mind, ego, and the general principle of combustion. Yet when it is stable, it represents clear illumination, absolute clarity, and true emptiness.

 

Water ☵ represents heavy, the subconscious, darkness, reproductive forces, the body, desires and the general principle of densification. It is when something is heavy that it easily becomes pulled low. However this Water principle also contains the one true yang of heaven. This Yang is constantly getting pulled into things, much like the nature of human desire. Thus this eternal principle operates such as if one is able to remain centered, one is able preserve one's one true yang of heaven in the midst of forces that will draw it away. One operates in the midst of danger, yet is always able to stay centered and safe. It is like carrying a cup of water without allowing it to be spilled as one hikes up a mountain. 

 

Doubled hexagrams can represent internal and external, or body and mind.

Double fire ䷝ can be interpreted as clarity of body and mind, Double water ䷜ can be interpreted as stability of body and mind.

 

It is when we have Fire over Water ䷿ or Water over Fire ䷾ that we can see how these principles relate to crossing the river, or undertaking something great.

 

Water has a proclivity to sinking that must be guarded against to preserve stability.

Fire has a proclivity to rise up that must be guarded against to preserve clarity.

 

When water is beneath fire ䷿, the two separate, and one must work very hard to hold the water up and bring the fire down. Doing work to keep two things from going in different directions at the same time one is unsettled and it is not an appropriate time for a big undertaking. After puberty, this is a natural human state, where the reproductive essences are easily consumed and the mind easily wanders.

 

When fire is beneath water ䷾, the two meet each other in the middle, and are easier to keep integrated. When fire is brought below water, its heat warms the water and steam (qi) is created, sublimating the water and preventing it from leaking away as easily. When the receptive capacity of water is used as a foundation to draw in and support the mercurial and fleeting nature of fire, fire does not as easily burn things up. It is when these two meet and intermingle, that over time the state of Fire and Water, these nozzles of creation, are turned back, we take control of our own momentum and return to the state of Heaven and Earth prior to there being momentums to guard against.

 

It is when in the state of Fire under Water ䷾, that, as things are merging together, that one is more settled within and able to navigate a large undertaking.

 

Crossing a large river, without bridges or modern technology, is a very dangerous affair. One may easily be washed away, especially if one is trying to carry a lot across. In a boat even, one wrong turn or not paying attention to one errant wave, means the boat sinking. In modern days roads and highways are likened to rivers - to cross a highway full of traffic, one must be very careful or one will get run over. If one is unsettled in mind and body, it may not be wise to put oneself in such precarious positions, and so one is not advised to attempt the crossing. If one is in a more settled state, it may be a good opportunity to undertake such a crossing.

 

It is in this way that the I-Ching advises when we might be able to find success in undertaking something that involves many correct steps. This could be something like interviewing for a new job, starting a family, traveling to a different country, an important business negotiation, and so on. These are not things one wishes to undertake in an unsettled state of mind and body.

 

[thelerner]

I love bridges and flowing water. 

 

We cross the great rivers because we're brave.  To see or learn something new. 

 

Trees are great meditators, they seem to sit quietly all day.  Yet below there roots grow, expanding into new territory, each year there branches expand a little further.  To live is to grow, explore, share. 

[Starjumper]

On 5/25/2017 at 9:45 AM, Daeluin said:

Crossing a large river, without bridges or modern technology, is a very dangerous affair. One may easily be washed away, especially if one is trying to carry a lot across. In a boat even, one wrong turn or not paying attention to one errant wave, means the boat sinking. In modern days roads and highways are likened to rivers - to cross a highway full of traffic, one must be very careful or one will get run over. If one is unsettled in mind and body, it may not be wise to put oneself in such precarious positions, and so one is not advised to attempt the crossing. If one is in a more settled state, it may be a good opportunity to undertake such a crossing.

 

It is in this way that the I-Ching advises when we might be able to find success in undertaking something that involves many correct steps. This could be something like interviewing for a new job, starting a family, traveling to a different country, an important business negotiation, and so on. These are not things one wishes to undertake in an unsettled state of mind and body.

 

Thank you for the excellent explanation.  The question I asked the oracle was ...  Since a socialist president was again elected here quite a few people are saying that it's going to become like Venezuela, so the question that I asked the oracle was in relation to whether I should sell out and move to a country further South or to stick it out here.  Either way it will be a large undertaking but my feeling is I don't really want to start over again in a new country.

[Daeluin]

I tend to view governments, their presidents and ministers, as the fire, and the land as the water. The land and the king are one.

 

Following the same principle, there is a tendency for the "king" to become disconnected from the "land," especially when the king is above the land, operating with an "upward" proclivity, while the land remains below the king, operating with a "downward" proclivity (in humility, not defending itself).

 

Thus it seems to follow principle that many governments, especially as they attempt to catch up to "modern governments", continuously disconnect from the land and are often almost completely oblivious both to their relationship to this destruction and how this destruction affects the health of their kingdom.

 

A great state is like a river basin

    that receives everything flowing into it.

It is the place where all things come to rest

    where all the world is welcomed

 

The low is greater than the high

The still is greater than the restless

    The low country wins over its neighbor

    The still female wins over the male

 

The Sage wants to uplift the people

The people want to follow the Sage

    only by being low does this come to be

The Sage bows to the people

The people bow to the Sage

And when they lift up their heads

    only greatness remains

 

dao de jing 61, tl Jonathan Star

 

Nice divination. Best of luck upon your journey, brother.

[Limahong]

Hi Steve,

 

A great thread and its title is just as great.

 

I like the postings thus far and the inescapable wondering by Marblehead (colours of marble and moonbow).

 

A few of the threads are pretty learned – especially those on I Ching. I tried embarking on a short I Ching course many years back at a local university. I got registered for its second intake which was subsequently cancelled.  Why?

 

The first intake was infested by fortune-tellers from a neighbouring country. I supported the cancellation because of the likely havoc these fortune-tellers might create. Most of them had already the gift of the gap; and if we were to enhance that gap by bridging their knowledge gaps, what further mayhem would they create?

 

I Ching had escaped my attention henceforth till now. Is it time now for me to rekindle my I Ching interest again? Why? I get to meet the right teachers now to study hexagrams?

 

I don’t understand one bit of these from daeliun:

There are four timeless hexagrams, which are in operation in every moment.

Heaven over Heaven ䷀

Earth over Earth ䷁

Water over Water ䷜

Fire over Fire ䷝

 

But I like daeliun’s metaphorical association of "crossing a great river" thus:

"This could be something like interviewing for a new job, starting a family, traveling to a different country, an important business negotiation, and so on. These are not things one wishes to undertake in an unsettled state of mind and body".

 

Perhaps daeliun’s associations are each considered within a manageable time frame. Maybe your - “I should sell out and move to a country further South or to stick it out here” – is also tendered temporally.

 

In another posting I will shared how my own “crossing a great river” turned out to be a precarious “journey on a great river”. It stretched over > ten years.

 

- LimA

Edited June 11, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.

[Stosh]

It is one of several judgements , it is not an absolute,  that to go through trials and overcome adversity is always favorable. 

for ex , permutation of hexagram six says It does Not further one to cross the great river.

If you got the one that says you should , then that is the advice offered,

but the 'great river' could be to weather the dictators rule , or it could mean to flee. 

So I figure this is actually relegated back to being Your decision based on how You regard the situation. 

( personally I dont know that the general panic sentiment is the wisest , people often make a big deal about events far over their heads,

,, it Could be good time to buy more land as prices drop, dunno.  )  

[Limahong]

On 6/11/2017 at 5:24 PM, Limahong said:

In another posting I will shared how my own “crossing a great river” turned out to be a precarious “journey on a great river”. It stretched over > ten years.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Thank you for your 'thanks' that we are reconnected  and I am reminded that I have an outstanding posting to fulfill. An apology for my lapses.

 

How have you been? I have thought of your  mountain once in a while. Trust everything is fine.

 

My “journey on a great river" pertained to a lengthy academic project I undertook as a researcher in the land of my ex-colony master.

 

Will recollect my thoughts and put the pieces together. Will revert within short.

 

Nice that we are on the same page again.

 

- Anand

[Mig]

On 6/10/2017 at 4:09 PM, Starjumper said:

 

Thank you for the excellent explanation.  The question I asked the oracle was ...  Since a socialist president was again elected here quite a few people are saying that it's going to become like Venezuela, so the question that I asked the oracle was in relation to whether I should sell out and move to a country further South or to stick it out here.  Either way it will be a large undertaking but my feeling is I don't really want to start over again in a new country.

Interesting comment. Both countries are different and Correa was not Chavez so I don't understand why you believe people saying what the media says. Hang in there enjoy the peace of dao and keep cultivating along the teachings of ancestral tribes in that area

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Mig said:

Interesting comment. Both countries are different and Correa was not Chavez so I don't understand why you believe people saying what the media says. Hang in there enjoy the peace of dao and keep cultivating along the teachings of ancestral tribes in that area

 

Actually the media wasn't saying it because the media was under the control of Correa, it was other people who have been here long enough to see the trend and were worrying it would get worse.  Correa robbed huge amounts of money from the country and nationwide corruption flourished under him.  Then he ran to Belgium with the money.

 

It turns out that the new president, Lenin, who is of the same party, isn't so bad.  He is trying to patch things up, all the provincial leaders like him, and he has a very high approval rating.  People here appear to be more savvy about governments than a lot in the US.  The president is checking the condition of things out around the country and it has been discovered that the infrastructure was being neglected, for example the oil refineries are about to fall apart and will take a lot of money to fix.

 

So anyway, things aren't looking so bad and I didn't want to move and start over again anyway.

Edited August 25, 2017 by Starjumper

[Mig]

Corruption has always existed especially in those countries. I doubt anything similar may happen. Don't worry and be happy.

[Limahong]

On 6/11/2017 at 5:24 PM, Limahong said:

In another posting I will shared how my own “crossing a great river” turned out to be a precarious “journey on a great river”. It stretched over > ten years.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Many apologies for the extended non-delivery of intention.

 

My recall of “crossing a great river” is in everyday words. Nothing to do with I Ching. Not sure if it can be interpreted a la I Ching. If so, it will be interesting.

 

I undertook a big research to translate my experiences of 20 years in an organisation into the academic domain. The research topic was very close to my heart. But I had to package it in such a way that it was an original contribution to the body of knowledge.

 

I had to traverse uncharted water but I was not fazed by it as the motivation to complete the task flowed in my blood. It started as “crossing a great river”; but for a greater part of it I was completely lost and directionless on the river. I had research supervisors but their help was at best limited.

 

What started as a metaphorical river (external to me) became an inward journey in search of my mind. Yet I had to align my mind with the external dimensions in terms of - right/wrong, acceptable/unacceptable, politics ... (all these looked at from the supposedly 'leading frontier' of the West).

 

Whilst on the journey. the clock was ticking against me and my financial standing was faltering. And I had to face the everyday 'up and down' of living. At many points in time/space then the river was flowing but my boat was cluelessly not moving. My life was at a standstill.

 

The hardest part came when I lost the most important person in my life from life. My life went into a tailspin and I went into depression with six months left to complete my academic pursuits. I could not spell some common words and I could not even remember the names of some of my friends.

 

Despite these, the original passion/fire still burnt within me and from what I understand now - 'divine intervention' stepped in. I meditated and prayed ... and things turned around.

 

To cut to the chase - I reached the intended destination of my journey with a month left. My academic work was endorsed by a professor in the West who was also researching something similar.

 

Looking back, I count these as being instrumental in bringing me back to the mainstream of life - (i) love/support of family/friends (ii) walks in sunshine/rain & (iii) renewed faith in the Divine.

 

I put the Divine as (iii) because it was only at the end did I realised that I was put on a test. I still believe so today.

 

With this realisation, my life is forever changed.

 

- Anand