[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 13

[dawei]

Legge

 

13 
Favour and disgrace would seem equally to be feared; honour and 
great calamity, to be regarded as personal conditions (of the same 
kind).

What is meant by speaking thus of favour and disgrace? Disgrace is 
being in a low position (after the enjoyment of favour). The getting 
that (favour) leads to the apprehension (of losing it), and the losing 
it leads to the fear of (still greater calamity):--this is what is 
meant by saying that favour and disgrace would seem equally to be 
feared.

And what is meant by saying that honour and great calamity are to be 
(similarly) regarded as personal conditions? What makes me liable to 
great calamity is my having the body (which I call myself); if I had 
not the body, what great calamity could come to me?

Therefore he who would administer the kingdom, honouring it as he 
honours his own person, may be employed to govern it, and he who would 
administer it with the love which he bears to his own person may be 
entrusted with it. 

Lau

 

13 
Favor and disgrace are things that startle; 
High rank is, like one's body, a source of great trouble.

What is meant by saying favor and disgrace are things that startle? 
Favor when it is bestowed on a subject serves to startle as much as when it is withdrawn. 
This is what is meant by saying that favor and disgrace are things that startle. 
What is meant by saying that high rank is, like one's body, a source of great trouble? 
The reason I have great trouble is that I have a body. 
When I no longer have a body, what trouble have I?

Hence he who values his body more than dominion over the empire can be entrusted with the empire. 
He who loves his body more than dominion over the empire can be given the custody of the empire. 

Feng/English

 

13
Accept disgrace willingly. 
Accept misfortune as the human condition.

What do you mean by "Accept disgrace willingly"? 
Accept being unimportant. 
Do not be concerned with loss or gain. 
This is called "accepting disgrace willingly."

What do you mean by "Accept misfortune as the human condition"? 
Misfortune comes from having a body. 
Without a body, how could there be misfortune?

Surrender yourself humbly; then you can be trusted to care for all things. 
Love the world as your own self; then you can truly care for all things.

 

Bill Porter (Red Pine)

13.
Favor and disgrace come with a warning 
honor and disaster come with a body
why do favor and disgrace come with a warning 
favor turns into disfavor
gaining it comes with a warning
losing it comes with a warning
thus do favor and disgrace come with a warning 
and why do honor and disaster come with a body 
the reason we have disaster
is because we have a body
if we didn't have a body
we wouldn't have disaster
thus those who honor their body more than the world 
can be entrusted with the world
those who cherish their body more than the world 
can be encharged with the world
 

Jonathan Star

13
Be wary of both honour and disgrace?
Endless affliction is bound to the body?
What does it mean, Be wary of both honour and disgrace?
Honour is founded on disgrace and disgrace is rooted in honour
Both should be avoided
Both bind a man to this world
That's why it says, Be wary of both honour and disgrace?
What does it mean, Endless affliction is bound to the body?
Man's true self is eternal, yet he thinks, I am this body, I will soon die?
This false sense of self is the cause of all his sorrow
When a person does not identify himself with the body tell me, what troubles could touch him?
One who sees himself as everything is fit to be guardian of the world
One who loves himself as everyone is fit to be teacher of the world.

Flowing Hands transmission

 

13  
Accept disgrace willingly. 
Accept misfortune as the human condition. 
What do I mean by "accept disgrace willingly?" 
Accept being unimportant. 
Do not be concerned with wealth, titles, loss or gain. 
If you are not concerned with these, you can always "accept disgrace willingly". 
What do I mean by "accept misfortune as the human condition?" 
Without a body, how could there be misfortune! 
For misfortune arises from having a body 
Surrender yourself humbly, then you can be trusted to care for all things. 
Love the world as your own self, then you can truly be trusted to care for all things. 
 
 
Ni elucidation

 

13

Favor and disgrace are both causes of shock.
When one is favored, one is shocked.
When one is disgraced, one is also shocked.
That is because people forget the unadorned plainness of universal life.
If they knew this clearly, then what is meant by saying that favor and disgrace are both causes of shock?
Favor is no higher than disgrace.
What is meant by saying that the greatest trouble is the strong sense of individual self that people carry in all circumstances?
People are beset with great trouble because they define their lives so narrowly.
If they forsake their narrow sense of self and live wholly, then what can they call trouble?
Therefore, only one who dedicates himself to the wholeness of the world is fit to tend the world.
Only one who relinquishes the self can be entrusted with responsibility for the life of the world.
 

[Marblehead]

I have always seen this as a warning against excessive ego - self-valuing.

 

[dawei]

I see this as a kind of ZZ 'this or that'; that there is neither in both.

 

If you drop the idea of favor and disgrace, then they are both meaningless till we give them [emotional, attached] meaning.

 

FH saying to 'accept [xyz] willingly' and Ni saying 'That is because people forget ...'

 

In our forgetting, we replace attach to 'this' or 'that';  We stop accepting 'this' is 'that' and is all much ado about nothing.

 

Elsewhere, we did a thread on FH's five important aspects of the DDJ and 'self' was one of them.

 

I'd like to hear his comment on his last line:

 

"Love the world as your own self, then you can truly be trusted to care for all things. "

[Jeff]

Here is my view on this one...

 

Do not get caught up with and attached to how others see you.

Simply living your life, you will naturally start to attach to things.

Surrender to the loving flow of it, rather than trying to fight and hold on to it.

Eventually loving the whole world and not just individual things that you attach to.

Edited May 30, 2017 by Jeff

[Brian]

47 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Here is my view on this one...

 

Do not get caught up with and attached to how others see you.

Simply living your life, you will naturally start to attach to things.

Surrender to the loving flow of it, rather than trying to fight and hold on to it.

Eventually loving the whole world and not just individual things that you attack to.

For clarity, I think that's a typo in the last line -- I think Jeff meant to write "attach" rather than "attack" (although there's meat on that bone, too...)

[Jeff]

42 minutes ago, Brian said:

For clarity, I think that's a typo in the last line -- I think Jeff meant to write "attach" rather than "attack" (although there's meat on that bone, too...)

 

Yes, thanks.  Word correct can sometimes be a pain...

[Marblehead]

18 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Yes, thanks.  Word correct can sometimes be a pain...

I experience that all the time.

 

[flowing hands]

As you can see my transmission is almost the same as Feng's. I copied this with minor alterations as Lei Erh said to me this was exactly how the verse should read in English. So there's no point in changing that which is translated right and has been given the right meaning!

 

The last line is aimed at all of us. We are to some extent 'selfish' and self interested, so in caring for the world and other living things we should treat them as we would like to be cared for and treated ourselves.

Edited June 4, 2017 by flowing hands
typo

[rene]

9 hours ago, flowing hands said:

As you can see my transmission is almost the same as Feng's. I copied this with minor alterations as Lei Erh said to me this was exactly how the verse should read in English. So there's no point in changing that which is translated right and has been given the right meaning!

 

flowing hands, hello

 

Yes, this is why Feng's translation is so special, imo. Others may be more accurate in translating this character or that - but, for me, it has always been what comes through the words chosen; and that which comes through is what reveals Li Ehr's intent. There are two compilations that facilitate this for me: Feng's, and yours.

 

warm greetings

[Rara]

I think Legge has this. If the translation is accurate enough, but what a great description.

 

Basically going from one fear (striving) to the next one (loss. And further loss when one has lost)

 

Business, or making ends meet and trying to keep up with society are my easiest analogies.

 

Then later, the body itself is a burden. Without it, we are more free. With it, look after it. To show great care with the body shows true priority, and that person should govern.

 

Damn. The UK and US are fucked.

Edited April 30, 2020 by Rara

[Sketch]

 

• Verse Thirteen

To show favor to the disgraced

Will scare the daylights out of them.

It is very expensive to worry about your body; 

About survival, about becoming poor,or even homeless.

 

So what do the disgraced have to be afraid of?

To show favor is to lower someone, to show that they are your subordinate.

Being singled out for

 favor is as scary as disgrace.

This shows that being favored and being humiliated 

Follow the same rules.

Why would someone tell big, expensive problems

To a subordinate?

 

The ancient city of Yunwu is in ruins.

It has vanished into clouds and mist, 

The name is 

Remembered as a quality of Tea still grown in the region;

Served at that moment that it is hot and steaming.

 

They had big, expensive problems.

 

The putative author of this account

claims to have been there, 

Not identifying himself as acting as a “the person you should emulate ” in any way 

At the time. 

 

I suppose he was younger, and still foolish.

 

In order to achieve the same level that our putative author 

Occupied at that time,

One would have to solve 

An unspecified but finite

Number of fairly expensive problems.

 

Things pass by, into the past ,

under the  sky;

If you are easy going 

You may depend upon the sky

To remain overhead; for events to follow their natural course,

For water to flow downhill and so on.

 

Love the body which does the work.

It’s all of the power you have

under the sky.

 

 云雾 yun wu

Yun, Clouds Wu, Mist

Shifting nothing

Clouds and mist

The “Cloud Tea” of Le Mountain

無 wu “it is not”

The thing that is not there.

Why should I tell some subordinate about 

my big deal money problems?

In my younger days,

Before I was as wise as I am now,

I was there at Yun Wu

When the kettle came to boil;

I was lucky to get out with my skin.

They still grow  tea there,

But under different management.

 

[Sketch]

One of my favorites, and one I'm sure I'm enthusiastically mistranslating because of the delicious narrative I'm percieving.