[DDJ Meaning] Chapter 15

[dawei]

Legge

 

15 
The skilful masters (of the Tao) in old times, with a subtle 
and exquisite penetration, comprehended its mysteries, and were deep 
(also) so as to elude men's knowledge. As they were thus beyond men's 
knowledge, I will make an effort to describe of what sort they 
appeared to be.

Shrinking looked they like those who wade through a stream in 
winter; irresolute like those who are afraid of all around them; grave 
like a guest (in awe of his host); evanescent like ice that is melting 
away; unpretentious like wood that has not been fashioned into 
anything; vacant like a valley, and dull like muddy water.

Who can (make) the muddy water (clear)? Let it be still, and it 
will gradually become clear. Who can secure the condition of rest? 
Let movement go on, and the condition of rest will gradually arise.

They who preserve this method of the Tao do not wish to be full (of 
themselves). It is through their not being full of themselves that 
they can afford to seem worn and not appear new and complete. 

Lau

 

15 
Of old he who was well versed in the way 
Was minutely subtle, mysteriously comprehending, 
And too profound to be known. 
It is because he could not be known 
That he can only be given a makeshift description:

Tentative, as if fording a river in winter, 
Hesitant, as if in fear of his neighbors; 
Formal like a guest; 
Falling apart like the thawing ice; 
Thick like the uncarved block; 
Vacant like a valley; 
Murky like muddy water.

Who can be muddy and yet, settling, slowly become limpid? 
Who can be at rest and yet, stirring, slowly come to life? 
He who holds fast to this way 
Desires not to be full. 
It is because he is not full 
That he can be worn and yet newly made. 

 

Feng/English

 

15
The ancient masters were subtle, mysterious, profound, responsive. 
The depth of their knowledge is unfathomable. 
Because it is unfathomable, 
All we can do is describe their appearance. 
Watchful, like men crossing a winter stream. 
Alert, like men aware of danger. 
Courteous, like visiting guests. 
Yielding like ice about to melt. 
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood. 
Hollow, like caves. 
Opaque, like muddy pools.

Who can wait quietly while the mud settles? 
Who can remain still until the moment of action? 
Observers of the Tao do not seek fulfillment. 
Not seeking fulfillment, they are not swayed by desire for change.

 

Jonathan Star

 

15
The masters of this ancient path are mysterious and profound
Their inner states baffle all inquiry
Their depths go beyond all knowing
Thus, despite every effort, we can only tell of their outer signs ?
Deliberate, as if treading over the stones of a winter brook
Watchful, as if meeting danger on all sides
Reverent, as if receiving an honoured guest
Selfless, like a melting block of ice
Pure, like an uncarved block of wood
Accepting, like an open valley
Through the course of Nature muddy water becomes clear
Through the unfolding of life man reaches perfection
Through sustained activity that supreme rest is naturally found
Those who have Tao want nothing else
Though seemingly empty they are ever full
Though seemingly old they are beyond the reach of birth and death

Flowing Hands Transmission

 

15 
The Ancient Master’s were subtle, mysterious, profound and alert.  
The depth of their knowledge was unfathomable. 
Likened to the Dao, they were at one. 
Being at one, all we can do is observe their appearance. 
Watchful, like men fishing in a stream.  
Alert, like men aware of the tiger.  
Courteous, like visiting guests.  
Yielding, like a blade of grass. 
Simple, like uncarved blocks of wood.  
Empty, like vessels. Opaque, like muddy pools. 
Lying still and waiting quietly, who can wait for the mud to settle?  
Who can wait for the mystery to be revealed? 
Do not seek fulfilment, but feel the Dao in your heart. 
By not seeking fulfilment, nothing is changed. 
The Ten Thousand Things rise and fall without interference.  

 

Ni eludication

 

15
The ancient ones who knew how to live with the subtle essence of the universe were gentle and flexible, profound and indistinguishable.
They were too deep to be known, thus we can only describe their appearance.
They did not rush into anything,
as if fording an icy stream in early winter.
They were retiring and hesitant, not assertive,
as if they were shy of people.
They were reverent in demeanor to everyone,
as if meeting honored guests.
They did not insist on imposing their views on others or interfering in worldly affairs,
as if they were passing travelers.
They adapted themselves to a circumstance like melting ice.
Simple and genuine, they were like virgin timber.
Empty and receptive, they were like a huge cave.
Comprehensive and unprejudiced,
they were equally kind to all things;
like the water of a stream flowing down a mountain, they benefitted all things.
Who else could move constantly from the gross and heavy to the light and pure?
Who else could evolve steadily from the inert and stagnant to everlasting life?
Those who hold fast to the subtle essence of the universe do not desire to extend themselves in climax.
Because there is no climax to one's extension and expansion, life is continually renewing itself.

 

 

Added:

 

Hinton:

 

15
Ancient masters of Way
all subtle mystery and dark-enigma vision:
they were deep beyond knowing,
so deep beyond knowing
we can only describe their appearance:
perfectly cautious, as if crossing winter streams,
and perfectly watchful, as if neighbors threatened;
perfectly reserved, as if guests,
perfectly expansive, as if ice melting away,
and perfectly simple, as if uncarved wood;
perfectly empty, as if open valleys,
and perfectly shadowy, as if murky water.
Who's murky enough to settle slowly into pure clarity,
and who still enough to awaken slowly into life?
If you nurture this Way, you never crave fullness.
Never crave fullness
and you'll wear away into completion.
 

Lin:

 

15
The Tao masters of antiquity
Subtle wonders through mystery
Depths that cannot be discerned
Because one cannot discern them
Therefore one is forced to describe the appearance
Hesitant, like crossing a wintry river
Cautious, like fearing four neighbors
Solemn, like a guest
Loose, like ice about to melt
Genuine, like plain wood
Open, like a valley
Opaque, like muddy water
Who can be muddled yet desist
In stillness gradually become clear?
Who can be serene yet persist
In motion gradually come alive?
One who holds this Tao does not wish to be overfilled
Because one is not overfilled
Therefore one can preserve and not create anew

 

We can learn much from the ancient masters. Their understanding of the Tao was so advanced that it may seem too subtle and profound for us. Rather than to force ourselves to understand them, we can learn by observing and emulating their behavior.
They lived life in a cautious way, not given to frivolous or reckless acts. They resolved issues by carefully considering all sides, and would never jump to conclusions. They handled responsibilities with serious regard, and would never do anything in a perfunctory way.
This does not mean the masters were uptight. Quite the contrary. They were always relaxed and unattached as they went about their activities. This took nothing away from their serious concern for others and their careful handling of life's challenges. These ancient masters could be relaxed without being lax, and thus achieve excellence effortlessly. They could be unattached without being uncaring, and thus focus on the process instead of the end product.
Another defining characteristic of the masters is the simplicity they practiced in every aspect of life. In their words, actions, and surroundings, simple and uncluttered plainness is the rule rather than the exception. By keeping everything simple, they gained peace of mind as well as the joie de vivre.
The ancient sages were also known for their openness of mind and heart. They gladly considered new ideas and would never dismiss anything out of hand. They treated everyone, even difficult people, with infinite patience and would never prejudge them.
Despite their spiritual and mental refinements, these masters never put themselves on display. They had no interest in showing off their brilliance. Instead, they were humble and fully of self-effacing humor.
People who did not know the sages very well would never see through the outward appearance to perceive their high levels of intelligence and capabilities. It was only in the course of time that people gradually saw the true picture, like muddy water slowly becoming clear.
The composure and serenity of these masters could be easily mistaken for passivity or apathy. This was because most people could not understand how anyone could embody both tranquility and dynamism simultaneously.
The ancient sages did nothing to clarify whatever misconceptions people around them might have. This was because they were never full of themselves. They never assumed they knew it all. Their definite preference was to cultivate quietly to preserve a sense of calmness in everything they did, without drawing attention to themselves, or creating a disturbance.

 

[Marblehead]

Great advice for how to travel through the world and life.

[Stosh]

I kind of like flowing hands version on this one best. 

[Brian]

10 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I kind of like flowing hands version on this one best. 

I do, too.

[Marblehead]

11 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I kind of like flowing hands version on this one best. 

Yes, especially the last five lines.

 

[dawei]

As a translation reminder.. most are trying to translate and be faithful to the meaning of the characters... some are more academics and some sinologists, while some are trying to feel the text.   Within the latter group, there can be spiritualists, practitioners and those who are more like an embodiment path.     

 

I think we started with an idea of choosing five translators and I had some reservations about what we picked as they would be easy to pick apart but that was not what I thought we would want in the end, but finding that meaning and expression of the chapter.   So I have deviated at times to include a few others.

 

I've decided I'm going to add in FH and Ni for the remainder as they each come from a deeper path perspective.  I'd like to include Liao as a respected practitioner but I have to type out his translations and don't have the time. 

 

I very much like Derek Lin and his notes and have appreciated past inclusion.

 

For this chapter, I'll add to the original post, David Hinton who is a faithful translator of chinese poetry and philosophy, usually trying to remain accuracy and terse.   I'll add in Derek Lin's too.

 

[Jeff]

Some comments for chapter 15...

 

The old masters knew what they were deeply connected to the Dao.

The depth of there knowledge and connection was beyond what is noticeable by others.

Because of this, all we can do is watch and pay attention their actions.

Watch with total focus and be completely alert.

Watch without getting caught up with your own attachments and prejudices.

Simply be open (sort of like full body listening).

Letting the activity (mud) of the mind settle quietly.

Realizing the Tao is not a goal to reach, not a desire to fulfill, it is simply completely residing.

[Mig]

On 5/30/2017 at 11:33 AM, Jeff said:

Some comments for chapter 15...

 

The old masters knew what they were deeply connected to the Dao.

The depth of there knowledge and connection was beyond what is noticeable by others.

Because of this, all we can do is watch and pay attention their actions.

Watch with total focus and be completely alert.

Watch without getting caught up with your own attachments and prejudices.

Simply be open (sort of like full body listening).

Letting the activity (mud) of the mind settle quietly.

Realizing the Tao is not a goal to reach, not a desire to fulfill, it is simply completely residing.

Is this the dao of the universe, the dao of humans in society or the dao of human behavior?

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Mig said:

Is this the dao of the universe, the dao of humans in society or the dao of human behavior?

 

The Dao is all. The universe could be described as the one that emerged from the Dao. A human or human behavior is part of 10,000 things which are also born of the Dao.

[dawei]

8 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

The Dao is all. The universe could be described as the one that emerged from the Dao. A human or human behavior is part of 10,000 things which are also born of the Dao.

 

I still have a hard time with 'one that emerged from the Dao'...   Dao is not a 'thing', so there is no emerging from it... but I get the the wont to use a picture to show a point.

 

Tao didn't give birth to One. Tao is a verb

 

THE GREAT ONE is not Dao

[Marblehead]

I just wasn't in the mood to fuss about it.

 

[Jeff]

48 minutes ago, dawei said:

 

I still have a hard time with 'one that emerged from the Dao'...   Dao is not a 'thing', so there is no emerging from it... but I get the the wont to use a picture to show a point.

 

Tao didn't give birth to One. Tao is a verb

 

THE GREAT ONE is not Dao

 

The Dao is also not really a verb either, as any such "telling" is inherently limiting and hence not the Dao. But since we are on a forum, one tends to attempt to use word descriptors. As the Tao Te Ching tells us...

 

CHAPTER 1  

The Dao that can be told is not the eternal Dao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal name.

The nameless, is the Mother of Heaven and Earth.

The named is the manifestations of the Ten Thousand Things.

Ever desireless, one can feel (heart) the mystery.

Ever desiring, one can see its manifestations.

These two are born from the same source, but differ in form; one appears as imperceptible, infinity upon infinity.

Here lies the path of all mystery. 

[Jeff]

To make it even more confusing, I would describe the 0ne as actually the motion of the Dao. Or you could say that the One should be a verb...

[dawei]

I agree with the idea that One seems to be an example of the motion that can be produced by the idea of Dao.  And this is simply perceived according to the Way things behave to our sense of our senses.  

[Mig]

I keep seeing quotes and many from Mitchell's and wonder if his translation conveys the meaning from the original in one of last lines of this chapter:

“Do you have the patience to wait
Till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
Till the right action arises by itself?”

Does this make sense from the original and compared to all the translations aforementioned?

[Marblehead]

I think that line 2 should read:

 

Till the mud settles and the water is clear?

 

But then, I do understand why "your" was used rather than "the".

 

 

[Mig]

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I think that line 2 should read:

 

Till the mud settles and the water is clear?

 

But then, I do understand why "your" was used rather than "the".

 

 

Does those lines are closed to the original meaning or some other translations? I am trying to figure if the message is conveyed or if it is far from the original text or any translations that has been posted here. Thanks

[Stosh]

59 minutes ago, Mig said:

Does those lines are closed to the original meaning or some other translations? I am trying to figure if the message is conveyed or if it is far from the original text or any translations that has been posted here. Thanks

To me this version has a bit of a different intent as compared to the larger group of interpretations, but since I can't read ancient Classical Chinese, few do , I surely couldn't say it was wrong. It just isn't all that similar to the others presented as a group. 

It does look similar to Feng though., to me.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

I agree with Stosh.  The concept is still the same whether "the" or "your" is used, that is, clear your mind so that you will be properly guided according to the evolving circumstances.  (The right action might be us being inspired to take some action, hopefully the best of all possible courses of action (or non-action).

 

[Marblehead]

12 hours ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

 The "your" is good. 

I have no disagreement with what you have said regarding this.  Yes, when we apply metaphor there is no problem at all as long as the reader understands the metaphor.

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Marblehead

[dawei]

16 hours ago, Mig said:

I keep seeing quotes and many from Mitchell's and wonder if his translation conveys the meaning from the original in one of last lines of this chapter:

“Do you have the patience to wait
Till your mud settles and the water is clear?
Can you remain unmoving
Till the right action arises by itself?”

Does this make sense from the original and compared to all the translations aforementioned?

 

It is an interesting inquiry but I think a distinction without a difference.

 

If we keep the entire chapter together, the opening is about the "ancient masters" ... 

 

Now, re-read it with this idea carried down through the entire chapter...

[Stosh]

2 hours ago, dawei said:

 

It is an interesting inquiry but I think a distinction without a difference.

 

If we keep the entire chapter together, the opening is about the "ancient masters" ... 

 

Now, re-read it with this idea carried down through the entire chapter...

Reading Legge from that perspective has the old masters Seeming muddy minded not clear , but presumes that if one becomes nonjudgemental , the irrationality would resolve as not being as crazy as it might seem at first. Otherwise, the old masters are described accurately as muddy minded and unsettled...which wouldnt be encouraging anyone to settle down... which brings us back to the right action arising From a muddled mind, doesnt it? It seems to Work out,  that the right mental state is not clarity but obscurity. It that your contention? The opposite of Mitchell?

[dawei]

Here is Mitchell, in case others want to see it:

 

15 
The ancient Masters were profound and subtle. 
Their wisdom was unfathomable. 
There is no way to describe it; 
all we can describe is their appearance. They were careful 
as someone crossing an iced-over stream. 
Alert as a warrior in enemy territory. 
Courteous as a guest. 
Fluid as melting ice. 
Shapable as a block of wood. 
Receptive as a valley. 
Clear as a glass of water. Do you have the patience to wait 
till your mud settles and the water is clear? 
Can you remain unmoving 
till the right action arises by itself? The Master doesn't seek fulfillment. 
Not seeking, not expecting, 
she is present, and can welcome all things. 

[dawei]

7 hours ago, Stosh said:

Reading Legge from that perspective has the old masters Seeming muddy minded not clear , but presumes that if one becomes nonjudgemental , the irrationality would resolve as not being as crazy as it might seem at first. Otherwise, the old masters are described accurately as muddy minded and unsettled...which wouldnt be encouraging anyone to settle down... which brings us back to the right action arising From a muddled mind, doesnt it? It seems to Work out,  that the right mental state is not clarity but obscurity. It that your contention? The opposite of Mitchell?

I've long liked Lok Sang Ho

 

The masters of the Dao in ancient times had mystical, versatile, and unfathomable understanding.

As it is unfathomable, Only a proximate description is possible.

They are prepared at all times, as if taking on a river journey in winter.

They are alert and watchful, as if they were wary of the surroundings.

They are respectful, as if they were the guests of someone.

They are accommodating, as if they were ice about to melt.

They are unpretentious, as if they were the embodiment of simplicity.

They are open-minded, as if they were a hollow valley.

They are murky, as if they were a muddy stream,

They are unsettled, as if they were an open sea;

They never stopped, as if they were the winds of the earth.

Is there anyone who can be like a murky stream cleaning up when given a rest?

Is there anyone who can be like calm air gathering motion and becoming alive again?

The man who shuns full gratification of their desires, is the man who has this ability.

He can rejuvenate.

 

and Ta-Kao:

 

In old times the perfect man of Tao was subtle, penetrating and so profound that he can hardly be understood.
Because he cannot be understood, I shall endeavour to picture him:

He is cautious, like one who crosses a stream in winter;

He is hesitating, like one who fears his neighbours;

He is modest, like one who is a guest;
He is yielding, like ice that is going to melt;

He is simple, like wood that is not yet wrought;

He is vacant, like valleys that are hollow;

He is dim, like water that is turbid.
Who is able to purify the dark till it becomes slowly light?

Who is able to calm the turbid till it slowly clears?

Who is able to quicken the stagnant till it slowly makes progress?
He who follows these principles does not desire fullness.

Because he is not full, therefore when he becomes decayed he can renew.

 

 

I think their line of thought is mine. 

[Marblehead]

Well, I guess it's time for me to present Henricks' translation.

 

 

1.  The one who was skilled at practicing the Way in antiquity,
2.  Was subtle and profound, mysterious and penetratingly wise. 
3.  His depth cannot be known. 
4.  It is only because he cannot be known
5.  That therefore were I forced to describe him I'd say:

 

6.  Hesitant was he!  Like someone crossing a river in winter.
7.  Undecided was he!  As though in fear of his neighbors on all four sides.
8.  Solemn and polite was he!  Like a guest.
9.  Scattered and dispersed was he!  Like an ice as it melts
10.  Genuine, unformed was he! Like uncarved wood.
11.  Merged, undifferentiated was he!  Like muddy water.
12.  Broad and expansive was he!  Like a valley.

 

13.  If you take muddy water and still it, it gradually becomes clear. 
14.  If you bring something to rest in order to move it, it gradually comes alive. 
15.  The one who preserved this Way does not desire to be full;
16.  Therefore he can wear out with no need to be renewed.

 

It was important to me when reading it that there is a break between line five and line six, that is, the first five lines are generalized comments then lines 6 through 12 define some of the attributes of "The one who was skilled ..."

 

The break between twelve and thirteen indicated a pause in thought.  Then line thirteen begins a new line of thought and isn't really speaking to the previous lines.

 

Basic physics. 

If you leave muddy water alone the dirt will gradually settle and the water becomes clear

If you stop an object that is in motion you are then able to put it into motion again, most likely in a different path.

And desiring to not be full always leaves room for further growth. (No need for renewal.)

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Marblehead