A backward question for taijiquan practitioners

[Taomeow]

I know Yang people do it --- my teacher jokes that it's because they only have one form and eventually get bored repeating it, so they reverse it to have something new to do with it. While Chensters have so many (laojia yi lu, laojia er lu, xinjia yi lu, xinjia er lu...) that it will take us decades to run out of new things Chen to learn. However, he did get us to reverse the form (laojia yi lu) in class yesterday, to get the feel for what it's like. It was very educational... I wonder if anyone here has done it and has anything to share about the methods used?

Edited December 28, 2007 by Taomeow

[onebir]

I know Yang people do it --- my teacher jokes that it's because they only have one form and eventually get bored repeating it, so they reverse it to have something new to do with it.

 

Is backwards running the sequence of moves backwards - & somehow stringing them together - or doing the form backwards as if someone filmed it & reversed the film?

 

(I think some traditional Yang styles have at least 2 emptyhanded forms, incidentally, the 'normal' long form, and a 'fast form'.)

[mYTHmAKER]

A worthwile practice. I taught myself the reverse of Wu style 108.

I did a little at a time - it can be challenging.

It is freeing for mind and coordination, breaks fixed patterns.

It helps you go deeper into the form and pay attention to the usual side-

deeper realizations.

Haven't done it in a while. Maybe I'll bring back the practice.

[seadog]

Ihad to laugh when you said yang style people do it backwards because they get bored.Well that is precisely why I started to do it.My teacher didn't like it,but I found it was good for my left side and helped to open up the movement of my left shoulder and arm not to mention clear out some cob webs in my head.

[Oolong Rabbit]

Haha I asked if they ever taught the form on the opposite side once and everyone in the class looked at me like I had 3 heads (we were all having a hard enough time on the normal side). My instructor said she has known people to do it, but that there really was no need as the set is "designed" to balance out both sides of the body. Still, from a martial point of view I think there would be definite benefits. If I remember correctly, BKF advised doing it on the opposite side once one becomes adept in one of his books.

[Taiji Bum]

We did backwards like instead of stepping out with the left foot first, you step with the right. I is the same sequence but some things like a left foot forward "play the lute" becomes right foot forward. All the moves you do only one side are now done on the other side. Its not backwards like running a movie backwards.

[mYTHmAKER]

Mirror image is an appropriate term.

Left instead of right but NOT back instead of forward.

[agharta]

Of course you'd learn to do the form mirror-image.

[onebir]

Of course you'd learn to do the form mirror-image.

I agree - I've tried doing the Beijing 24 Simplified Yang form - which I've heard described as "balanced" - in mirror-image and there only bits that feel good are the moves I've previously practiced as single moves to both sides.

 

Seems entirely natural to want to be able to do any given move well on both sides. & want to be able to smoothly link together moves from a form in short sequences that aren't in the form, treating the form as a catalog of movements rather than a practice routine set in stone.

 

Using a single form, that doesn't include too many separate movements, in this way, stresses quality over quantity of techniques. For an extreme example of this approach, there's yiquan, which (as taught by the Yao bros) in place of a form has about 12 shili (aka testing force) single move exercises & five punches. Many people develop very usable skills mainly from practicing a set of material that's limited compared to many traditional tai ji or other internal styles.

 

(Thanks for the clarification on backwards. I was quite confused about how that could be useful - or even possible!)

[thaddeus]

Chen Zhenglei advocates doing this....

[doc benway]

After studying for about a year, I started doing the mirror image of the form on my own without any recommendation to do so by my teacher. It took a while but I got the hang of it. When I mentioned it to my teacher, he looked at me like I was stupid and said "Of course you should practice everything on both sides! I shouldn't have to tell you that!" He's kind of "old school" when it comes to certain things like that...

 

IMO, practicing each and every technique from the form on both sides with a partner in the form of application drills is more important than doing the form on both sides. Nevertheless, practicing the form on both sides is a very good mental, in addition to physical, exercise.

 

Interesting side note - I've run into a group of Chen stylists who are superb at push hands - on one side only! When they have to push standing with the opposite foot forward in restricted step competition, they fall apart. When moving, if you catch them on their weak side, it's all over. I questioned them about it and they told me that their shifu has them train push hands on one side only for a very long time before allowing them (if ever) to switch. I found it a very interesting approach, although one I probably would not favor.

[Mal]

When I mentioned it to my teacher, he looked at me like I was stupid

 

hehe Yes I am use to that look I have a go mirror style now and then. Sifu never encorages us to do that, which I have always found a bit strange as the Yang long form that I do is not as symetrical as newer forms like the Beijing 24.

 

The one Sifu likes is practicing the form blindfolded. That's fun to try

[mYTHmAKER]

hehe Yes I am use to that look I have a go mirror style now and then. Sifu never encorages us to do that, which I have always found a bit strange as the Yang long form that I do is not as symetrical as newer forms like the Beijing 24.

 

The one Sifu likes is practicing the form blindfolded. That's fun to try

 

Sometimes I practice while closing my eyes.

[doc benway]

 

 

The one Sifu likes is practicing the form blindfolded. That's fun to try

That's a great exercise. Even doing walking drills blindfolded is challenging. Definitely worth the time and effort now and then.

[Celtic Dragon]

I have also practiced with my eyes closed. I find it shuts out distractions and you are more aware of the moves.

[Taiji Bum]

I wasn't too big on mirror image but I told my people about it and encouraged it. When I taught I had the beginner people who just learned the 24 Form and were feeling a bit too proud, do the form with their eyes closed. There is no better beginner lesson of how little you know about balance, the form or your level of ability than by doing it with your eyes closed, stumbling through the form and ending up finishing the form 20 feet from where you started. Funny for the teacher too.

[Mal]

I was going to put in "make sure you have a spotter and/or the area is free of trip hazards"

 

I can get "lost" doing the spins blindfolded and it puts my directions out. My practice space looks big but only in the usualy directions so I often run into trees etc.

 

It's good fun.

[minkus]

I do chen and although i cant do any of the forms completely in reverse yet i try to practice every seperate move or stance in mirror image. As suggested by our teacher .. make that mind flexible

[JoseFreitas]

Mirror image and backwards are two different things, both useful. Mirror image is simple and should be mandatory if you're trying to get any kind of martial training. After all, Karate people do it in their kihon, Xingyi guys do their Five Fists and Animal forms both sides, Taiji people need to do their moves on both sides too. There are two ways to do it: complete form in mirror image (more difficult) and single technique in mirror image where it's just a part of drilling single techniques. Most teachers who show single technique drilling are then teaching mirror image too, it's just a question of stringing the different techniques together and figuring out the bits you don't train that way.

 

Backwards is much more challenging, and not something you'll find in other martial arts, mostly because it's more of a Taiji thing, in the sense that Taiji has more of its martial usefulness in the transitions of the moves, rather than more concentrated in the end postures (and very few teachers actually do it). It would be starting at Closing Form, and running the form as a movie in reverse until you finish the form with Opening posture. REALLY difficult. My suggestion is film yourself doing the form normally and then run the movie backwards and approach it as if you were learning the form from scratch. You'll find it very interesting and challenging. And fun. One day I showed up at class and did it for my teacher to see. He laughed and said he had learned it that way long time ago, and his teacher used to know at least five forms that way.

 

To answer the question: I can do a few forms in mirror image, but can only do the Yang Short form in backwards order, and not that well, except for a few passages. My normal form has improved a lot.

[Taomeow]

Thanks for all the valuable input, taijibums.

 

I have a sense that with practice taiji becomes like your handwriting -- only you "write" with your whole body (and more, eventually ) -- a unique idiosyncratic pattern of motion that is, however, recognizable as a particular "language", with a limited set of "letters" to use yet an unlimited number of "words" you can "write" -- any which way you please long as what you "write" still makes sense. I don't think it's mere coincidence that traditional taoist schooling focused so much on calligraphy! It can be used as a martial skill in miniature...

 

At one point I wanted to learn to write with my left (nondominant) hand as well as I can write with my right one, and after some experimenting one day I discovered that my left hand already has it -- its own writing style, not the helpless, awkward childish handwriting that you get if you "learn it" but an entirely confident, rapid and relaxed style of its own. And totally unlike that of my right hand! Somehow my bodymind translated the right-hand skill for the left hand, and the left hand got it as a "transmission" -- not step by step, not element by element, but all at once in its entirety. Moreover, turned out it can use the skill better than the right hand -- it has no trouble writing in mirror letters without me having to think about it, left to right or right to left doesn't matter, in circles and spirals as well as in a straight line, and so on. I have a distinct feeling that such a "transmission of skill" from one side of the body to the other must be possible in taiji -- in which case one would be able to do a mirror form OR a backward (end to beginning) form effortlessly, without having to learn the individual moves. My level of skill is nowhere near there yet, alas. But I can tell it's possible... was wondering if anyone ever "got it" this way?

[joeblast]

that's an interesting concept! I've been trying to do it with a left handed set of golf clubs 23 years playing right handed...I just have a little trouble narrowing down the hitting area left handed!!

[Celtic Dragon]

[Oolong Rabbit]