London Bridge

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Apech said:

Right so as I understand it the narrative being proposed is - man goes into a pub and stabs an innocent woman 10 -15 times with a butchers knife - we stand back in horror and say 'we never should have invaded Iraq, or Afghanistan or armed the mujhahaddin' (however you spell that).  or created the state of Israel - take your pick or make up your own historical version of dubious 'reasons'.

 

Because most Muslims are normal people we have to deny that there is an ideology which hates the  West and wants to destroy it - so we won't say that in case someone gets offended????

 

Bollocks.  Sorry - complete bullshit.

 

Or:  its all part of a global Zionist conspiracy to erode our way of life blah, blah - or 'its those evil Jews'

 

Also bollocks.

 

 

Yeah, that's why I have a hard time stereotyping a people, regardless of nationality.  There are many wonderful Arabs living in the USA.  They are Americans and proud of it.  We can say the same thing about England.

 

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, that's why I have a hard time stereotyping a people, regardless of nationality.  There are many wonderful Arabs living in the USA.  They are Americans and proud of it.  We can say the same thing about England.

 

 

 

I think this is why it is wrong to focus so much on immigration as the issue.  Many of the terrorists are second or third generation UK nationals - born and raised in the UK.  the older generation would never have committed acts of terror - but the younger generation have been targeted by Wahhabi (Salafist) hate preachers and radicalised. 

 

 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

I think this is why it is wrong to focus so much on immigration as the issue.  Many of the terrorists are second or third generation UK nationals - born and raised in the UK.  the older generation would never have committed acts of terror - but the younger generation have been targeted by Wahhabi (Salafist) hate preachers and radicalised. 

 

 

Exactly.  And this "political correctness" bullshit is what is allowing this to happen.  It is happening in the USA at this very moment.  We are breeding conditions for serious problems.  All the hatred, all the poor losers.  Even the media.  All the lies.  Even American "skinhead" bullshit against the Jews is sick.  They need to find out who their real enemy is.  (European Globalism)

 

[Apech]

Quote

 

Questions have been asked about how much police and the intelligence services knew about the three men who carried out the attack on London Bridge and Borough Market before they carried out the deadly assault.

 

In the wake of Saturday’s attack, which killed seven people and left 21 in a critical condition, reports have emerged that one of the suspects was reported to police and may have previously been confronted by officers.

 

Erica Gasparri claimed she had reported to police her concerns about the individual in question’s extremist religious views two years ago after she feared he was radicalising children in a local park.

 

 

A former friend of the same man, whom neighbours have described as a married father of two young children who regularly attended two local mosques, also said he had contacted police in Barking, east London, about his views after he discussed Isis-inspired terror attacks.

 

He told BBC’s Asian Network his friend used to watch clips of the American hate preacher Ahmad Musa Jibril.

 

“I phoned the anti-terror hotline,” the unnamed man said. “I spoke to the gentleman. I told him about our conversation and why I think he was radicalised.”

 

Despite his warning, he said his friend was not arrested and allowed to keep his passport. He said: “I did my bit, I know a lot of other people did their bit but the authorities did not do their bit.”

 

The same attacker was also reported to have appeared in a documentary on Channel 4 last year about British jihadis. He was caught on camera being involved in an altercation with police after a black flag, which has become associated with Isis was unfurled in Regent’s Park in London.

 

In the Jihadis Next Door, a group of Muslim men, including the suspected attacker, pray in front of the flag. The group react angrily when police question them about the flag outside the park. The voiceover says the men were detained for an hour but released without charge after officers failed to find the flag. The programme also featured Siddhartha Dhar, who changed his named to Abu Rumaysah after converting to Islam and was later believed to have gone to Syria, extremist preacher Abu Haleema and his friend Mohammed Shamsuddin. Haleema had contact with a teenage jihadi who wanted to carry out a beheading on Anzac Day in Australia, while Shamsuddin was an associate of Islamic cleric Anjem Choudary and joined a radical group after meeting hate preacher Omar Bakri. Shamsuddin leads the prayers in the park in front of the black flag. The suspected attacker appears alongside Rumaysah at a demonstration outside Paddington police station.

 

Additionally, notes the Mail said were carried by a detective leaving a flat raided on Sunday in connection with Saturday’s attack suggested one of the individuals who is a subject of the investigation was questioned by officers. 

 

The note captured on camera said: “He had been interrogated last year for his Islamic views, his house was searched, passport was taken + he had to sign on.”

 

It is not clear whether the notes referred to one of the three men involved in Saturday’s attacks or one of the individuals believed to be linked to them who were arrested on Sunday.

 

 

From the Guardian today.  Imagine the cries of racisim and Islamophobia which would have been heard if the police had locked these people up for praying in front of a flag etc.  yet it would have been the right thing to do and would have saved lives.

[Brian]

13 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yes, I am aware of that and it is the main reason England (and the US) supported the creation of the state of Israel after WWII.  IN general, the Arabs (Moslems) supported Hitler and the Israelis supported the Allies.

 

It's still the same war with different clothing and weapons.

 

Shame on Europe for destroying the Templars.

 

 

Ummm... No.

 

The State of Israel was already in the works for nearly half a century prior to WWII and the formal establishment of it was delayed by WWII.  The State of Israel was not a result or side-effect of WWII.  There were no "Israelis" to support the Allies, although there were lots of Jews living in Jerusalem!

 

The point you keep avoiding is that it is fundamental to the teachings of Islam and the life of Mohammed as a role model to war against the infidel, to suborn the entire planet under Islamic rule, and to wipe Jews off the surface of the Earth.  These are bedrock principles and have not changed in principle or in practice since the 7^th century.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Brian said:

Ummm... No.

 

The State of Israel was already in the works for nearly half a century prior to WWII and the formal establishment of it was delayed by WWII.  The State of Israel was not a result or side-effect of WWII.  There were no "Israelis" to support the Allies, although there were lots of Jews living in Jerusalem!

True.  The migration of Jews back to their "homeland" started in the late 1800.  Many Jews saw what Europe was coming to with its anti-Semitic philosophy.  Even Nietzsche saw it!

 

But I still content that the UN establishment of Israel was a result of WWII.

 

1 minute ago, Brian said:

 

The point you keep avoiding is that it is fundamental to the teachings of Islam and the life of Mohammed as a role model to war against the infidel, to suborn the entire planet under Islamic rule, and to wipe Jews off the surface of the Earth.  These are bedrock principles and have not changed in principle or in practice since the 7^th century.

I avoid a lot of things I prefer to not talk about.  Nothing new.

 

So perhaps the Moslems should re-write the Koran like the Christians did with the Bible?

 

[MIchael80]

26 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

True.  The migration of Jews back to their "homeland" started in the late 1800.  Many Jews saw what Europe was coming to with its anti-Semitic philosophy.  Even Nietzsche saw it!

 

But I still content that the UN establishment of Israel was a result of WWII.

 

I avoid a lot of things I prefer to not talk about.  Nothing new.

 

So perhaps the Moslems should re-write the Koran like the Christians did with the Bible?

 

I would say that Islam is in desperate Need of re-writing/Reformation. (as was christianity)

But, as i wrote, the Reformers (which are only very few) have a really hard time.

the earlier part of the Koran was the peaceful one, and the later was the aggressive one, but according to Islam, later is better, so they have a real Problem here.

the bible is different in that the old Testament is also very cruel, but the new one is very peaceful.

When we see how Islam has crippled the middle east in every aspect of Society and we see that Happening in every Country which turns to Islam (right now we see that Indonesia becomes more and more radical) the only way is a Reformation, but as Long as most muslims do not Support that it will be very hard.

[Brian]

This is probably worth reading:

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine

It gives a pretty good history, including links to relevant details, and takes it back as far as the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

 

Of particular interest might be Trans-Jordan as it is significant when talking about current-day "proposed solutions."

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

I would say that Islam is in desperate Need of re-writing/Reformation. (as was christianity)

But, as i wrote, the Reformers (which are only very few) have a really hard time.

the earlier part of the Koran was the peaceful one, and the later was the aggressive one, but according to Islam, later is better, so they have a real Problem here.

the bible is different in that the old Testament is also very cruel, but the new one is very peaceful.

When we see how Islam has crippled the middle east in every aspect of Society and we see that Happening in every Country which turns to Islam (right now we see that Indonesia becomes more and more radical) the only way is a Reformation, but as Long as most muslims do not Support that it will be very hard.

We are in agreement here.  

 

The Arabic people were at one time the most advanced and creative of all peoples.  Religion took them backward.

 

 

[Chang]

14 minutes ago, MIchael80 said:

I would say that Islam is in desperate Need of re-writing/Reformation. (as was christianity)

But, as i wrote, the Reformers (which are only very few) have a really hard time.

the earlier part of the Koran was the peaceful one, and the later was the aggressive one, but according to Islam, later is better, so they have a real Problem here.

the bible is different in that the old Testament is also very cruel, but the new one is very peaceful.

When we see how Islam has crippled the middle east in every aspect of Society and we see that Happening in every Country which turns to Islam (right now we see that Indonesia becomes more and more radical) the only way is a Reformation, but as Long as most muslims do not Support that it will be very hard.

 

There is no hunger for the reformation of Islam and any Muslim suggesting such a thing would find themselves in danger of a very swift and violent end.

 

Radical islam is very much in the ascent and this nowhere more than in the western world. It is a sad fact that when the Muslim population in an alien country is low then they will keep their heads down and go without notice. As that population increases so their demands will grow, demands which if unmet will be supported by growing aggression and violence.

 

As the Muslim population of the guest country grows so the level of aggression increases. Whilst it is true that not all Muslims will resort to violence (many are passing details of extremists to the security forces) most will give at the least tacit support to the Islamist cause. European Governments who support the taking in of Muslim refugees are committing cultural suicide and are defending their action by hiding behind the shameful mask of humanitarianism. In a nutshell they are supporting an alien cause and culture whilst reducing the native population to victimhood.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Chang

[Marblehead]

11 minutes ago, Brian said:

This is probably worth reading:

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine

It gives a pretty good history, including links to relevant details, and takes it back as far as the collapse of the Ottoman Empire in WWI.

 

Of particular interest might be Trans-Jordan as it is significant when talking about current-day "proposed solutions."

And it still hasn't been fixed properly.

[Brian]

It is important to note that the Manchester bomber was a hafiz, a devout student of Islamic studies who has completely memorized the Quran as part of formal instruction by an Imam.

 

So was the guy in San Bernardino, BTW.

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Brian said:

It is important to note that the Manchester bomber was a hafiz, a devout student of Islamic studies who has completely memorized the Quran as part of formal instruction by an Imam.

 

So was the guy in San Bernardino, BTW.

I can't argue with truths.  I can and do argue about our understandings of the truths.

 

To pinpoint the extremists and say "this is what Islam is all about" is, IMO, unfair.

 

[Brian]

Just now, Marblehead said:

I can't argue with truths.  I can and do argue about our understandings of the truths.

 

To pinpoint the extremists and say "this is what Islam is all about" is, IMO, unfair.

 

Those who devoutly and intently study a particular subject or body of work and who then make statements -- and take actions -- about "what it is all about" deserve to be taken seriously, regardless of the subject matter.

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Brian said:

Those who devoutly and intently study a particular subject or body of work and who then make statements -- and take actions -- about "what it is all about" deserve to be taken seriously, regardless of the subject matter.

I will agree with this as it is a valid generalized statement.

 

Remove those who preach the killing of others.  Here in the USA Kathy Griffin is a perfect example.  And along with her are the media organizations that are supporting what she did.  If we can't make peace with our enemies then they need be destroyed.

 

[Marblehead]

Just to add:

 

But we need to properly identify who are enemies are.  Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

 

[Chang]

2 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Just to add:

 

But we need to properly identify who are enemies are.  Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.

 

 

It is a very sad fact that the 5th column forces at work in the west are legion.

[Marblehead]

Another "Just to add:"

 

Diversity does not mean forcing the views of a minority group upon the majority.

 

 

[Chang]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Another "Just to add:"

 

Diversity does not mean forcing the views of a minority group upon the majority.

 

 

 

Unfortunately in Western society the Left Wing Liberal Elite manipulate the majority so that they do not upset the views of the minority. It is called social justice and political correctness.

 

[Jetsun]

The Government are blaming the internet. The police and opposition blaming police cuts. Neither of which are really true. When everyone immediately tries to politicise the attacks for their own agenda they will never address the real problems and causes. 

[Apech]

One of the terrorists appeared in this TV documentary:

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

10 hours ago, Chang said:

I feel obliged to read your posts as it reminds me that not only do we need to fear the Islamist fanatics but also their western apologists.

 

 

You could not be more mistaken about me. I do not make apologies for anybody whose chooses violence as their way of life. I am saying that it is naïve to believe that the Western countries being targetted have themselves contributed nothing to the state of affairs. We do attract what we experience - this holds true on both an individual and collective level.

 

10 hours ago, Chang said:

At no point have I blamed "ethnic groups en bloc for undesired developments"

We are discussing Islam, a religion whose adherents wish to convert unbelievers or eradicate them. By taking in Muslim "refugees" by the million we are opening our doors to an alien culture which does not wish us well.

 

Again, you are generalizing beyond measure. IME, most Muslim refugees enjoying the benefits of living in a Western country are sympathetic towards our culture.

 

10 hours ago, Chang said:

I am sure that your grandfather was a good and decent man in helping French and Poles flee the Nazi menace. We should remember however that he was operating from the safety of neutral Switzerland. My father and his brothers had to fix bayonets and go to war to defeat the fascists whilst their country was being blitzed by the Germans.

 

You also appear oblivious to the obvious fact that the French and Poles were not potential enemies of Switzerland. This is not the case with the Muslims you seem so keen to defend.

 

As always your arguments are fatuous.

 

Your frequently contemptuous tone tells me much about your mind set. Which is barring you from a more objective perspective.

 

10 hours ago, Chang said:

We are in the line of fire. Your ranting that it is our own fault is of little use and can be likened to a man who having fallen in the river allows himself to drown whilst beating his breast at his foolishness for having fallen in in the first place.

 

No. What I do is sharing my thoughts on how we might stop falling into the river over and over again.

 

10 hours ago, Chang said:

In conclusion you must not think that blameless Switzerland will remain free from Muslim terror simply because you have refrained from invading Muslim countries. To Islam you are simply another cherry to be plucked.

 

We are doing okay.

[Michael Sternbach]

5 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

I think this is why it is wrong to focus so much on immigration as the issue.  Many of the terrorists are second or third generation UK nationals - born and raised in the UK.  the older generation would never have committed acts of terror - but the younger generation have been targeted by Wahhabi (Salafist) hate preachers and radicalised. 

 

 

 

I agree with you that focussing so much on immigrants is mistaken. It is propagandistic, in fact. Most immigrants are in need and did not come to us to make troubles.

 

Talking about the second or third generation, yes, some have been radicalised. Generalized anti-Muslim views will only aggravate the situation. Inter-cultural dialogue is needed to neutralize the soil on which Extremism can grow.

[Apech]

4 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

I agree with you that focussing so much on immigrants is mistaken. It is propagandistic, in fact. Most immigrants are in need and did not come to us to make troubles.

 

Talking about the second or third generation, yes, some have been radicalised. Generalized anti-Muslim views will only aggravate the situation. Inter-cultural dialogue is needed to neutralize the soil on which Extremism can grow.

 

 

Of course some have been radicalised no one has suggested its all Muslims.  There has been plenty of inter-cultural dialogue in the UK.  Extremism has grown among people who often live on benefits and have grown up in the UK.  Watch the documentary I posted above and you'll see.

[Michael Sternbach]

As far as the afore-mentioned Islamic reformers are concerned:

 

Reformers are by definition few in number and meet a lot of opposition. The efforts of those courageous individuals are to be commended.

 

Being a cultural optimist, I believe that it will be inevitable for Islam to go through reforms in the long run. And this will to a large extent be the result of peaceful encounters with other cultures.