London Bridge

[lifeforce]

26 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

Antisemitic conspiracy theories which overestimate the intelligence and power of the so-called elite...these stories just weaken us.

In reality, there's an actual problem and a solution. Islamism, and the eradication of it from the Earth. It's in our hands, not some imaginary elite.

That's what you've (and billions of others) been led to believe by the mainstream media, which is controlled by the very people orchestrating this evil plan. Be it the media, monetary systems, food, pharmaceuticals, religions etc etc. It's all manipulated by them.

I woke up more than a decade ago from decades of conditioning.  

This is no 'anti-semetic conspiracy theory', it's fact. 

I appreciate your input.

Edited June 4, 2017 by lifeforce

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, Brian said:

When did these "efforts of various Western governments to wage war in order to 'democratize' Middle Eastern countries" begin?

 

You are correct in your analysis except for the detail of root cause.

 

Enlighten me rather than quizzing me?

[Michael Sternbach]

4 hours ago, Taoist Texts said:

And don't forget to blame the victims!

 

The victims on both sides are most of all civilians who have nothing to do with the orchestration of war.

 

Fact is, the Western countries hit by terrorism - more precisely, their governments - made themselves targets by intervening in the Middle East without necessity. It's too bad that the responsible people, while they may have studied The Art of War, don't care for the Dao De Jing.

 

"Weapons are the tools of violence;
 all decent men detest them.
 Weapons are the tools of fear;
 a decent man will avoid them 
except in the direst necessity 
and, if compelled, will use them 
only with the utmost restraint.

Peace is his highest value. 
If the peace has been shattered, 
how can he be content?"

[Chang]

4 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

The victims on both sides are most of all civilians who have nothing to do with the orchestration of war.

 

Fact is, the Western countries hit by terrorism - more precisely, their governments - made themselves targets by intervening in the Middle East without necessity. It's too bad that the responsible people, while they may have studied The Art of War, don't care for the Dao De Jing.

 

"Weapons are the tools of violence;
 all decent men detest them.
 Weapons are the tools of fear;
 a decent man will avoid them 
except in the direst necessity 
and, if compelled, will use them 
only with the utmost restraint.

Peace is his highest value. 
If the peace has been shattered, 
how can he be content?"

 

If you feel no shame for your platitudes Michael you should at the very least feel pity for those who have to read them.

 

You have long shown yourself as a Cultural Marxist and Social Justice Warrior who lays the blame for all of Europes ill's on the white male whilst waving a refugees are welcome here banner at every opportunity.

 

The problem of radical islam goes much deeper than western intervention in middle eastern affairs but you are oblivious to this obvious fact

 

Keep turning the other cheek Old Boy. You'll be alright.

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

The victims on both sides are most of all civilians who have nothing to do with the orchestration of war.

 

Fact is, the Western countries hit by terrorism - more precisely, their governments - made themselves targets by intervening in the Middle East without necessity. It's too bad that the responsible people, while they may have studied The Art of War, don't care for the Dao De Jing.

 

"Weapons are the tools of violence;
 all decent men detest them.
 Weapons are the tools of fear;
 a decent man will avoid them 
except in the direst necessity 
and, if compelled, will use them 
only with the utmost restraint.

Peace is his highest value. 
If the peace has been shattered, 
how can he be content?"

 

I think our foreign policy is a factor and there have been mistakes but I don't see how this leads to, or even relates to, innocent people being knifed in a bar or pub.  For three men to hire a van, strap mock bombs to their chests, drive the van into pedestrians and then run amok stabbing people takes some calculation and forethought.  We don't know who these people are yet - but in the case of the Manchester bomber it was someone from a family who was given refuge, educated, fed, housed and looked after in England.  Plenty of people object to the Iraq war and so on - and may well be angry about it - but tell me how you get from there to going on a murderous killing spree in the name of God?  There is only one way - that is the acceptance of a set of beliefs which make this act not only permissible but fully justified and rewarded.  And that is the ideology of Islam.

 

 

[Aetherous]

Islamists are not otherwise-peaceful people seeking vengeance for having been invaded by the military industrial complex. To believe that is to not even listen to what they say in their own words.

[johndoe2012]

2 hours ago, Aetherous said:

. 

Edited June 4, 2017 by johndoe2012
Changed my mind

[gendao]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

Victims are certainly on both sides BUT the root cause is Islamic terrorism.  So yes even the muslim communities in the west (who probably moved here to get away from unstable theocratic violent societies) are victims.  But our governments have allowed this by pussy footing around, frightened of being called racist or Islamophobic (made up word) and ending up protecting no one and allowing our values of freedom and equality to be eroded.

In modern times, I think Islamic terrorism is comparatively miniscule, asymmetric blowback against perpetual global Zionist warfare on their homelands.

 

However, historically, I think the Moors did raid Europe out of pure, textbook imperialism?

Edited June 4, 2017 by gendao

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Chang said:

 

If you feel no shame for your platitudes Michael you should at the very least feel pity for those who have to read them.

 

To my knowledge, nobody is forcing you to read my posts. I am okay with it if you don't.

 

1 hour ago, Chang said:

You have long shown yourself as a Cultural Marxist and Social Justice Warrior who lays the blame for all of Europes ill's on the white male whilst waving a refugees are welcome here banner at every opportunity.

 

Wowowow... Let's break this down a bit: Not sure about the Cultural Marxist part, as I have no problem with free market economy, to which I am contributing as much as everybody else in my country. Also not sure why you would feel a need to defend 'white males' from me? I am most certainly one of them, not into self-depriciation and, unlike you, I do not blame ethnic groups en bloc for undesired developments.

 

But I must say that Social Justice Warrior has a certain ring to it.

 

As to 'waving a refugees are welcome here banner' - you may want to blame this on my family background - being the descendant of a man who put himself in harm's way by helping French and Polish refugees settle down in Switzerland during WWII. Being on the Nazis' black list, my grandfather was lucky that he lived to receive a medal from General de Gaulle, rather than a hail of bullets from a German firing squad. - So yes, it's fair to say that his spirit of supporting refugees from dictatorial governments came down on me.

 

1 hour ago, Chang said:

The problem of radical islam goes much deeper than western intervention in middle eastern affairs but you are oblivious to this obvious fact

 

See my reply to this in one of the subsequent posts.

 

1 hour ago, Chang said:

 

Keep turning the other cheek Old Boy. You'll be alright.

 

Not turning a cheek to anybody. Just suggesting a simple way to keep it out of the line of fire in the first place.

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

I think our foreign policy is a factor and there have been mistakes but I don't see how this leads to, or even relates to, innocent people being knifed in a bar or pub.  For three men to hire a van, strap mock bombs to their chests, drive the van into pedestrians and then run amok stabbing people takes some calculation and forethought.  We don't know who these people are yet - but in the case of the Manchester bomber it was someone from a family who was given refuge, educated, fed, housed and looked after in England.  Plenty of people object to the Iraq war and so on - and may well be angry about it - but tell me how you get from there to going on a murderous killing spree in the name of God?  There is only one way - that is the acceptance of a set of beliefs which make this act not only permissible but fully justified and rewarded.  And that is the ideology of Islam.

 

 

 

While there are indeed passages in the Koran suggesting the eradication of non-believers (you find similar statements in the Bible too, see Psalm 139, 19-22, for instance), the average Muslim is neither a religious fanatic nor do they wish to be part of violent actions. Living in a country that hosts many of them, I know that what they care for is a having a pleasant and safe life for their families and themselves, just like everybody else.

 

What you are referring to is a minority of self-declared soldiers waging war against states that they consider the enemy - a position that the latter have mostly put themselves in by their interventions in Islamic countries.

 

Let it be understood that my analysis is in no way meant to diminish the horror of those attacks against innocents. These actions are indeed most misguided, sad and deplorable. My intention is only to show the other side of this dreadful equation.

 

And Western separatism won't do anything to solve the problem but rather increase it by impeding inter-cultural dialogue, hardening fronts. and further encouraging some of the moderate Islamists (the great majority of them) to turn to extremism.

[Apech]

40 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

While there are indeed passages in the Koran suggesting the eradication of non-believers (you find similar statements in the Bible too, see Psalm 139, 19-22, for instance), the average Muslim is neither a religious fanatic nor do they wish to be part of violent actions. Living in a country that hosts many of them, I know that what they care for is a having a pleasant and safe life for their families and themselves, just like everybody else.

 

What you are referring to is a minority of self-declared soldiers waging war against states that they consider the enemy - a position that the latter have mostly put themselves in by their interventions in Islamic countries.

 

Let it be understood that my analysis is in no way meant to diminish the horror of those attacks against innocents. These actions are indeed most misguided, sad and deplorable. My intention is only to show the other side of this dreadful equation.

 

And Western separatism won't do anything to solve the problem but rather increase it by impeding inter-cultural dialogue, hardening fronts. and further encouraging some of the moderate Islamists (the great majority of them) to turn to extremism.

 

see previous post

[Marblehead]

11 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Do you really think that will keep the terrorists away? Their organizations seem to be quite resourceful.

 

The root of the problem should be sought in the efforts of various Western governments to wage war in order to 'democratize' Middle Eastern countries - which they would never care about, if the latter didn't have any precious resources - especially oil -to offer, and which aren't really better off after Western intervention.

 

Focus most of all on the causes of war, rather than on its symptoms.

I can't argue with you.  We (the West) started it when we sent people to Afghanistan to help them defeat the Russians.  Or go back to Carter if you will.  

 

Many people hold hate in their heart and becoming a terrorist is a release of that hate.

 

I have no answers.

 

[RiverSnake]

Good ole journalistic integrity. 

 

 

[Brian]

31 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

I can't argue with you.  We (the West) started it when we sent people to Afghanistan to help them defeat the Russians.  Or go back to Carter if you will.  

 

Many people hold hate in their heart and becoming a terrorist is a release of that hate.

 

I have no answers.

 

I can, and I have.

 

When did the US first encounter jihadi violence? Immediately after having its Independence recognized. Literally as soon as US-flagged ships appeared in the Mediterranean, the Caliphate began attacking them and demanding both ransom and tribute.  When Thomas Jefferson and John Adams asked, "So, like, why are you attacking us? What did we do?" the answer was, " Y'all are a bunch of infidels and the Book says we have to!" (OK, I might have paraphrased -- I didn't feel like Googling the actual exchange...)

 

Notice there was no mention of oil or of US invaders in Muslim homelands then?

 

If you aren't from the US but are from a European country, instead, you can probably trace it back much further -- an almost unbroken string of jihadi violence met (often after much hand-wringing and apologism) by European defence and counter-offensive.

[Marblehead]

Fairly said.  I don't like going back that far as it stereotypes good people into a basket they don't belong in.

 

Differences in religions seems to be a pretty good reason to kill people.

 

 

[windwalker]

 

[windwalker]

 

[Brian]

59 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Fairly said.  I don't like going back that far as it stereotypes good people into a basket they don't belong in.

 

Differences in religions seems to be a pretty good reason to kill people.

 

 

I might but that argument, MH, if we weren't talking about a continuous pattern of action literally since the reign of Mohammed himself. If it could be said that, "Oh, yes, this used to be a problem but not for two hundred years" -- OK, let's talk.  That's simply not the case.

 

Are you aware that the very same Muslim Brotherhood which fronts for most of the current Middle Eastern terrorist groups (and for which CAIR is a mouthpiece in the US) sought out a partnership with Hitler and printed copies of Mein Kampf in Arabic because they sought to re-establish the Caliphate and to wipe Jews off the face of the Earth once and for all?  Why? Because the Book says they must.

 

They consider the West to be Dar al-Harb -- the world of war. Not until we are subjugated and under Islamic rule will we be Dar al-Islam.

[Michael Sternbach]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I can't argue with you.  We (the West) started it when we sent people to Afghanistan to help them defeat the Russians.  Or go back to Carter if you will.  

 

Many people hold hate in their heart and becoming a terrorist is a release of that hate.

 

I have no answers.

 

 

Afghanistan is a good example. Yes, the West helped the country get rid of the Russians, supporting the Taliban that opposed them. Gosh, even All-American superhero Rambo was fighting on their side at the time!

 

How things have changed... Now the West is fighting against the Taliban they once helped bring to power.

 

And wasn't the IS founded in the aftermath of the 2003 US invasion of Iraq?

 

History teaches that overthrowing a dictatorship almost always leads to the establishment of an even worse dictatorship.

[Apech]

Right so as I understand it the narrative being proposed is - man goes into a pub and stabs an innocent woman 10 -15 times with a butchers knife - we stand back in horror and say 'we never should have invaded Iraq, or Afghanistan or armed the mujhahaddin' (however you spell that).  or created the state of Israel - take your pick or make up your own historical version of dubious 'reasons'.

 

Because most Muslims are normal people we have to deny that there is an ideology which hates the  West and wants to destroy it - so we won't say that in case someone gets offended????

 

Bollocks.  Sorry - complete bullshit.

 

Or:  its all part of a global Zionist conspiracy to erode our way of life blah, blah - or 'its those evil Jews'

 

Also bollocks.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

.

Edited June 5, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Chang]

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

To my knowledge, nobody is forcing you to read my posts. I am okay with it if you don't.

 

 I feel obliged to read your posts as it reminds me that not only do we need to fear the Islamist fanatics but also their western apologists.

 

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

Wowowow... Let's break this down a bit: Not sure about the Cultural Marxist part, as I have no problem with free market economy, to which I am contributing as much as everybody else in my country. Also not sure why you would feel a need to defend 'white males' from me? I am most certainly one of them, not into self-depriciation and, unlike you, I do not blame ethnic groups en bloc for undesired developments.

 

At no point have I blamed "ethnic groups en bloc for undesired developments"

We are discussing Islam, a religion whose adherents wish to convert unbelievers or eradicate them. By taking in Muslim "refugees" by the million we are opening our doors to an alien culture which does not wish us well.

 

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

But I must say that Social Justice Warrior has a certain ring to it.

 

As to 'waving a refugees are welcome here banner' - you may want to blame this on my family background - being the descendant of a man who put himself in harm's way by helping French and Polish refugees settle down in Switzerland during WWII. Being on the Nazis' black list, my grandfather was lucky that he lived to receive a medal from General de Gaulle, rather than a hail of bullets from a German firing squad. - So yes, it's fair to say that his spirit of supporting refugees from dictatorial governments came down on me.

 

I am sure that your grandfather was a good and decent man in helping French and Poles flee the Nazi menace. We should remember however that he was operating from the safety of neutral Switzerland. My father and his brothers had to fix bayonets and go to war to defeat the fascists whilst their country was being blitzed by the Germans.

 

You also appear oblivious to the obvious fact that the French and Poles were not potential enemies of Switzerland. This is not the case with the Muslims you seem so keen to defend.

 

As always your arguments are fatuous.

 

9 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

 

See my reply to this in one of the subsequent posts.

 

 

Not turning a cheek to anybody. Just suggesting a simple way to keep it out of the line of fire in the first place.

 

We are in the line of fire. Your ranting that it is our own fault is of little use and can be likened to a man who having fallen in the river allows himself to drown whilst beating his breast at his foolishness for having fallen in in the first place.

 

In conclusion you must not think that blameless Switzerland will remain free from Muslim terror simply because you have refrained from invading Muslim countries. To Islam you are simply another cherry to be plucked.

 

 

[MIchael80]

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2308529/half-british-muslims-would-not-report-is-supporters/

 

I am a sick of this terrorism.

europe was really safe until a few years ago and now this (besides the spikes in rapes etc.)

 

I have known a lot of muslims, most of which i was good friends. but when we talked deeper about certain topics it was clear that they have a very different worldview than us westerners.

 

Yes, the west has done horrible things in the middle east and i oppose that. BUT muslim invasions have happened the last 1400 years. Many do not know that the first crusades happened actually to fight back the islamic invasion.

 

We only have to look at islamic countries all over the world to see that they have very few in common with our worldview. And we have to look how hard islamic reformers are persecuted, they have to live with bodyguards 24/7.

How can anyone think that these people come to the west and just leave their social programming behind?

 

Muslims are allways the hardest to integrate population in every country that is a non-muslim country.

and we here in europe and the west feel guilty for everything now (in sweden and in germany women felt guilty for going to the police after being brutally raped by muslims; or the rotherham scandal). And because of this mass guilt we give up all our values in the name of tolerance. Now on social media and the mainstream media they will tell us again that the real victims are muslims and that islamophobia is the real problem.

 

I am sick of it!

 

best

Edited June 5, 2017 by MIchael80

[Apech]

 

[Marblehead]

10 hours ago, Brian said:

 

Are you aware that the very same Muslim Brotherhood which fronts for most of the current Middle Eastern terrorist groups (and for which CAIR is a mouthpiece in the US) sought out a partnership with Hitler and printed copies of Mein Kampf in Arabic because they sought to re-establish the Caliphate and to wipe Jews off the face of the Earth once and for all?  Why? Because the Book says they must.

 

 

Yes, I am aware of that and it is the main reason England (and the US) supported the creation of the state of Israel after WWII.  IN general, the Arabs (Moslems) supported Hitler and the Israelis supported the Allies.

 

It's still the same war with different clothing and weapons.

 

Shame on Europe for destroying the Templars.