Philosophical vs. religious Taoism - Split Discussion

[Limahong]

Hi Roger,

 

I like your lines of thoughts. Light and airy - opening up new avenues. Not condescending.

 

Pardon me - I do not like to use the word 'definition' in my thinking unless I am writing a report.

 

'Definition' is good for report writing - to establish my scope.

 

So I replace 'definition' with 'dimension' when reading your posting.

 

A third dimension to Taoism besides religious and philosophical?

 

Sure. Why not? Who says Taoism has only two dimensions?

 

Precise approach = scientific? Practice = pragmatic?

 

- LimA

[roger]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, LimA.

 

 

Scientific and pragmatic; a great combination.

[Limahong]

Hi Roger,

 

Have just noted in my preceding posting to you that we have these four words in one posting:

 

"religious + philosophical + scientific + pragmatic"

 

They are on the same page.

 

What a world, our world!

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

Taoism is like an owl, a wrench, and a block of cheese ,in a box.

[Limahong]

Hi Stosh,

 

Please explain each association.

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

Hi Stosh,

 

Please explain each association.

 

- LimA

They don't really Have anything in common, except that they are in the box.

[Marblehead]

They don't really Have anything in common, except that they are in the box.

 

Have you checked lately?  I think the owl has escaped.

[Stosh]

Well, theres been lots of subdivisions ,all of which are imaginary constructs.

[Limahong]

Trying to dupe me? OK you win.

 

Trying to 'dup' me? No way!

[Limahong]

What on earth is 'dup'?

[Stosh]

Duplicate post.

[Limahong]

Hi Stosh,

 

So 'dup' is worst than 'dupe'?

 

I guess correctly. Lucky - I am not 'dup'ed.

 

Must have done something right my previous life.

 

- LimA

[Stosh]

Hi Stosh,

 

So 'dup' is worst than 'dupe'?

 

I guess correctly. Lucky - I am not 'dup'ed.

 

Must have done something right my previous life.

 

- LimA

Dude. It was just a duplicate post. If I wanted to be insulting , I would do it outright so you would be sure of it., no chance at doubt.

[Limahong]

Oh I see.

[Mig]

I think the vast majority of people in the West who study and respect Taoism are philosophical.  Imo, unless you have an altar and observe their hierarchy of immortals and gods, you're in the philosophical camp.   Not a bad place to be.  

West as west of what? I can see many people read translations and say they are Daoists. IMO, if you learn both the religious and the philosophical and practice it then most likely you are a Daoist practitioner.

[Marblehead]

19 hours ago, Mig said:

West as west of what? I can see many people read translations and say they are Daoists. IMO, if you learn both the religious and the philosophical and practice it then most likely you are a Daoist practitioner.

Interesting perspective and I know that there are many who would agree with it.

 

However, I have seen nothing in either the Dao De Jing or the Chuang Tzu that indicates that Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu held to any religious beliefs. 

 

Therefore I must conclude that it is not necessary for one to have religious beliefs in order to be a practicing Daoist.

[Limahong]

I grew up in a "religious" Taoist family and I was (and still is) very comfortable with that. It is part of my everyday life even though I am a more "philosophically" inclined Tao Bum.

 

But what was "religious" then is not the same now. My parents had passed on and some of the Taoist "religious" traditions departed with them.

 

Present associations with "religious" Taoism are many traditions that are lost, modified, debated, judged ...

 

The Taoist traditions were/are fun and colorful when it came/come to festivities. There were/are a lot of sight, sounds, observances, cuisines … I like the food best and some of them cannot be easily found today.

 

When I included the past tense in the above, I am sad because part of my earlier years had died and will continue to die for generations to come – one generation after another.

 

So what is “religious” Taoism to me? It is family-centric and is embraced through familial and communal living, passed down generationally.

 

I am aware of the many modes of “religious” translation and transmission of Taoism. But the prosperity and posterity of Taoism thus are dependent on the wisdom of the receivers and practitioners.

 

The same wisdom applies to “philosophical” Taoism; but here I trust it is more of an individual choice.

 

- LimA

[Mig]

9 hours ago, Limahong said:

I grew up in a "religious" Taoist family and I was (and still is) very comfortable with that. It is part of my everyday life even though I am a more "philosophically" inclined Tao Bum.

 

But what was "religious" then is not the same now. My parents had passed on and some of the Taoist "religious" traditions departed with them.

 

Present associations with "religious" Taoism are many traditions that are lost, modified, debated, judged ...

 

The Taoist traditions were/are fun and colorful when it came/come to festivities. There were/are a lot of sight, sounds, observances, cuisines … I like the food best and some of them cannot be easily found today.

 

When I included the past tense in the above, I am sad because part of my earlier years had died and will continue to die for generations to come – one generation after another.

 

So what is “religious” Taoism to me? It is family-centric and is embraced through familial and communal living, passed down generationally.

 

I am aware of the many modes of “religious” translation and transmission of Taoism. But the prosperity and posterity of Taoism thus are dependent on the wisdom of the receivers and practitioners.

 

The same wisdom applies to “philosophical” Taoism; but here I trust it is more of an individual choice.

 

- LimA

I have the impression that religion in the western concept doesn't apply to the Chinese term of jiao. For some reason I keep reading here what is in our mind not what the Chinese accept as a term or a concept.

[Starjumper]

My viewpoint is =)  Taoist philosophy as it is practiced in the West is only a bastard child of real Taoism.  I think we can be fairly certain that Chinese Taoist philosophers (academic) do not exist like Western academic philosophers do.  The Philosophy only exist as it relates to various Taoist arts, for example Lao Tzu refers quite a lot to Nei Kung and it's results, but only those who know Nei Kung can see that.  In the West Taoist philosophy is a lot like a Western religion actually, because that's how (modern uneducated infantilized) Westerners in general relate to things.  You know - what they believe.

 

Concerning the Taoist religion it also is not as simple, because like all religions it contains a spectrum of followers that run from fundamentalists at one end to the mystics on the other end.  The brightly colored temples with their brightly colored statues were  set up for the entertainment of the fundamentalists, in order to imitate/compete with the Buddhist way that was taking over the populace.  Then there are the mystics, who know that beliefs are BS, they are the spiritual cultivators.  Nei Kung IS an official part of the Taoist religion, the path of the wizard IS an official part of the Taoist religion.  It's not all about beliefs in statues.

[Limahong]

Hi Starjumper,

 

Your posting is interesting.

 

Before I can comment on it, I need to know the meaning of these:

BS = ?

IS = ?

 

I have clicked on this:

Tien Shan

Taoist Hermitage - Southern Ecuador

Paradise In the Andes Mountains.

 

Just BEAUTIFUL.

 

And reasonable in affordability to an average Joe/Josephine.

 

- LimA

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, Limahong said:

Hi Starjumper,

 

Your posting is interesting.

 

Before I can comment on it, I need to know the meaning of these:

BS = ?

IS = ?

 

I have clicked on this:

Tien Shan

Taoist Hermitage - Southern Ecuador

Paradise In the Andes Mountains.

 

Just BEAUTIFUL.

 

And reasonable in affordability to an average Joe/Josephine.

 

- LimA

 

BS is an irreverent way of saying that something is a lie, untrue, or confused, it stands for bullshit. 

 

IS is 'is', the present tense of 'was' (past) or 'will be' (future).  I look forward to reading your ideas.

 

I do want to make it affordable for most people, which reminds me I was going to post in that thread about charging for learnings.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Starjumper

[Limahong]

Hi Starjumper,

 

Thank you.

 

You have my green light to charge for learning; nothing is free. No pain, no gain.

 

Will write another time. It is past midnight in Singapore.

 

Goodnight.

 

- LimA

[Limahong]

I was not thinking clearly on the divide in this thread. But a re-read of the above input from exorcist_1699 has light coming from the end of the Taoist tunnel for me again.

 

I can identify with my highlighted in this excerpt from exorcist_1699:

 

"Anyway, to me, the clear line  drawn in between the so-called philosophical and religious Taoism is unnecessary,  always overstated, which mainly is due to most people's lack of understanding of  the Taoist formula : Jing => qi => Shen ; or more precisely speaking, their incapacity in pushing their practice from the stage of  having attained qi to  the stage  of  attaining Shen. In that case, no matter how hard you try to explain to people about why holiness or supernatural stuff inevitably arisen at some stage, your explanation falls on deaf ears.

 

People can't understand that for  the first time in human history  , the appearance of Taoism enables them  to grasp an ubiquitous  force  : qi   as  a  medium to seal the gap  between  the subject and  object , the physical and spiritual ,  thing-inside your brain and thing-outside your brain ... only if,  just only if  you can march forward a little , to consolidate that fluctuating qi and minds into  some kind of  a  Big One  very different from what you daily sense and reason..."

 

Thank you exorcist_1699.

 

 

- LimA

 

 

[dawei]

In the Legalism vs Daoism thread...  see page 5:

 

They were not originally called 'schools'...

 

But the basic difference in Daojiao and Daojia...  must read here:

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/publications/eot_daojia.html

 

If we debate their dichotomy, then we are just seeing and thinking within our realm of local understanding... 

 

If we let them unite...  we should see something more complete

[Limahong]

Hi dawei (DW),

 

Thank you for your leads to other beds/cradles/schools … of information on Taoism. I use words such as beds/cradles … in relation to the consummation, birth, growth … of Taoist ideas.

 

Reading too much into the leads can be mind boggling. They are way too MUCH for me now and beyond to register as an Average Joe.

 

My thoughts in this post pertain to that of a kid who has newly arrived at the Taoism block as anchored in this thread - "Fascinated by Taoism, slowly building discipline".

 

Per the said thread, I have embraced these (re Marblehead):

(i) “what is" = a non-dualistic entity

(ii) “objective” =  “what is”

(iii) “subjective” = “thoughts on what is”.

 

I agree with you on this – “It is hard to find a write-up that describes Taoism in simple, straight and yet practical terms”.

 

My agreement is moored in daily living experiences and struggles; so far my embrace of Taoism (plus Buddhism), as philosophies, has helped me to straighten out my life reasonably well. There commonalities between the two.

 

It was only yesterday that I have these figured out:

 

(i) Taoism (Daojia) is not dualistic even though it is into yin/yang. It is just objective “what is”.

 

(ii) Teachings, lineages, schools, practices … of Taoism (Daojiao) can be dualistic (depending on the directions of ‘coming/going’).

 

(iii) Taoists (as followers of Taoism) – too can be dualistic; here the variants are even more complex as they are fastened to individual practitioners.

 

DW - I think you are a light-hearted, simple, humble, nimble-footed … truth seeker as reflected in this your excerpt of Taoism 101: Introduction to the Tao :

 

"The path of understanding Taoism is simply accepting yourself. Live life and discover who you are. Your nature is ever changing and is always the same. Don’t try to resolve the various contradictions in life, instead learn acceptance of your nature.

 

Taoism teaches a person to flow with life.

 

Discover a set of practices to aid keeping the mind, body and spirit engaged and strong. Remember practices should support your essence with the activities fitting the needs of the moment. Which means this is a shifting balance of activities relative to your needs.

 

Take time, relax and just explore and poke around. Taoism has no plans. Taoism is based upon following your gut feelings and trusting your instincts.

 

It’s within the pause of a breath… 

 

Taoism teaches a person to drop expectations. The more expectations you have for your life, the less you will become. A Taoist lives life without expectations, living in the here and now fully".

 

I am of the belief that we can be fellow travellers on the same road to the Void.

 

Thank you for your sharing.

 

- LimA

Edited June 4, 2017 by Limahong
Correct typo error.