Commentary, interpretation, paraphrase

[Mig]

As I read more and more on DDJ translations I keep reading commentaries by Chinese and then interpretation and paraphrase of the original text. Can someone explain the differences with examples if possible?

[dawei]

Can you share examples that are bothersome.

 

I think this is actually a fascinating idea to discussion... so I want to think more about it.

 

Some of the oldest translations we have are from westerners (Legge, Balfour) but I found a very early asian one that I didn't realize was quite old and I look at often (Ch'u Ta-Kao, 1904).    One should be able to see the difference.

 

Later some critical asian translators vary like Chan to Wu to Lau... much different interpretation.    Compare it to Yutang or Zhengkun as well.  These are more philosophical leanings but Chan's notes are exceptional as are Yutang.  Zhengkun is less well known as he is still in china but worth a read.  I should likely add Feng-English.  I understand Feng is the main translation basis. 

 

Some more modern western translations go translation wild like Hansen to Hinton to Mair...  I think Hendrick is a conservative and serious sinologist but is stuck on his translation path.   They are deeply studied into the language vs others like Star or Bill Porter who are more feeling the text.  

 

Finally we get to folks who are more into (without a better word now), a more spiritualized interpretation.

 

Flowing Hands, Ni, Liao. 

 

My final note would be to translations like:  Derek Lin, Ellen Marie Chen, Lok Sang Ho.   In fact, I like all three.

 

You just should read many translations and see what makes sense and speaks to you, but let's see where it goes on this thread as it could be interesting. 

 

Most of the above can be found here:

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

[Adia]

I think the basic premise of ddj is that when society breaks down you have to return to nature to find purity and peace. The ddj seems to me to be one man's journey to peace and harmony, away from civilization.

[Stosh]

On 6/11/2017 at 8:47 PM, Mig said:

As I read more and more on DDJ translations I keep reading commentaries by Chinese and then interpretation and paraphrase of the original text. Can someone explain the differences with examples if possible?

Are you asking if there is a generalized assumption or standard by which each of the translators are rendering from originals ?

Or are you saying, that Simply comparing whole chapters as translated ,without explanations for the choices made in each interpretation, somehow isn't satisfying,

since they often seem so different.  

[Mig]

On 10/30/2017 at 0:20 PM, Stosh said:

Are you asking if there is a generalized assumption or standard by which each of the translators are rendering from originals ?

Or are you saying, that Simply comparing whole chapters as translated ,without explanations for the choices made in each interpretation, somehow isn't satisfying,

since they often seem so different.  

I would say both but here is my problem in learning the DDJ, English translations not necessarily render the original meaning especially when it comes to cultural differences and the way has been interpreted for centuries. The commentaries are helpful and the major interpretations help to clear the meaning of some sentences. The paraphrase is most difficult to understand as I never know the real meaning without knowing the cultural differences.

[Stosh]

On 11/4/2017 at 1:17 PM, Mig said:

I would say both but here is my problem in learning the DDJ, English translations not necessarily render the original meaning especially when it comes to cultural differences and the way has been interpreted for centuries. The commentaries are helpful and the major interpretations help to clear the meaning of some sentences. The paraphrase is most difficult to understand as I never know the real meaning without knowing the cultural differences.

I see, It is my own sentiment, that recognizing the cultural differences helpful for those for whom the tiny details are important , you could say they are persons having, already , a working understanding of the general sentiments , and wish to delve deeper.  Then there are those for whom the cultural differences are really not important , because the principles are supposed to apply to any person , rich , poor , anglo , eastern , modern or traditional etc. 

Again ,it's my own sentiment , That the sections called chapters , hover around a particular lesson or example , which should be addressed as a whole , because, if one merely looks at parts of the sections , one is easily misled into thinking ,often-times,,, that the exact reverse of the point being made,,, is what is being asserted. Passing over details helps one concentrate on the whole , main point of a chapter.

 

The job of the reader is to , break with some cultural hurdles , to look at the whole , apply their own experience to the understanding they gain. This is tough to do. 

But it also indicates that there is a culturally held in common standard mindset , between us moderns and them ancients.

We tend to see the same things as strengths as the average farmer would , back in 350 BC. A  dude ..Tall strong fast smart committed aggressive maker of things happening, etc,  would be the Hero of most tales.  However , this mindset puts us on rails to be our own worst enemy , and the alternatives , are what they are suggesting also has validity. 

 Lao Zz and others are challenging the status quo of that Yang-Hero-prince- paradigm , (or at least were questioning what 'made men tick', or what made for sound human society) . 

Understanding the old Chinese version of him ( the hero)  , is similar to challenging our own Yang-hero - prince paradigm. ... and therefore the cultural differences which are indeed present , are relatively minor factors ,, IMO 

 

There are the physical laws , and there is a second tier framework of invisible relationships which make up the world , they were investigating or describing this. Like a handbook for .. Everything.

 

I liked harmonious emptiness translations which were quite poetic in the destination language English,

Flowing hands also does a nice job , getting to the destination of English sentences that have sensible meaning. 

But I don't think one version of translation really can cover all the nuances , its marvelous writing. 

 

PS.. if you find the perfect translation we all would like, Lemme know. 

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Stosh

[Mig]

As I read Paul J. Lin, in his English translation of the DDJ, one of the reason annotations and commentaries are necessary is that it deals with profound and mystical principles. It inspire them to trace the book's sources, analyze its meaning and search for possible application to their own ideas.

There is no perfect translation, it is just to understand what people understand out of the original text that resonates to them, the annotations, interpretations and paraphrase from the native speakers