Who has reached Jhana?

[taoguy]

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

You will need a strong ego:

 

There are two types of "ego"s

 

one is self identified and it has many "I"s

 

the other has relaxed its willfulness and stands firmly in trust in the grace of the All and Everything

 

Yes I've realized this as well. Been doing exercises in loosening my identities.

 

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

Gettng to the second - may well take some real work - very few are actually interested - nearly everyone that is really interested is not interested and of those very few are REALLY INTERESTED. Of those that are REAALY INTERESTED they most often require a perfect person (one that does not exist) and so they walk by sign after sign because they don't like the color of it or the texture or its size.

 

Ever since I was born, I was not interested in living life at all. Not in a suicidal way, but I just wanted to live simply. I wanted to be a caveman of some sort because I thought the 'sophisticated' world was just a waste of time and mental-masturbation. I couldn't understand why people 'conditioned' themselves. Frankly, if I had the opportunity to lose everything, I don't care about anything else, I would... Perhaps the only residue I have is paying the debt to my parents.

 

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

The great work is simple - it requires the application of simple things regularly and the constant monitoring of your armpits, noise and assumptions. You are a walking Chinese finger puzzle blown from one tornado to another - this is what you have to work with.

 

Today you don't have carrots to deal with - now you have to deal with ten thousand YouTube videos - they teach how to become a great Rabbit. Your request in this post is how to go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay beyond the Rabit. It's not such a shiney cool path - most would call it boring - even the ones that have Awakened don't like this path. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by the path here.

 

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

i don't know of a fast way.

 

Some key components of what took place here specifically regarding your inquiry on jhanas:

 

Somehow the creation of a firm desire to know for yourself what you have come to see as valuable to become or unveil.

 

Finding a key teaching and putting the books down and "immersing your self in practice" - initially for me it was Raja Yoga.

Immersion in the sense of 2-8+ hours a day of meditation with some posture work as well 1-2 hours. Vegetarian or vegan.

 Zero alcohol, drugs, stimulants, (practically) no sex (I did not do it for semen retention at all).

 

A very real understanding that you will attain siddhi and you will disregard them or at least not (try not) to become identified with them. Rabbits node their head to this but do not understand this. It you want to reach what you have inquired about this must be understood to your core.

 

I'm not interested in play-things really. I'm not even interested in extension of life or immortality. I just find all of these projection work, all of these ornamental things just... confetti in the air. I just want to know - who the heck am 'I'?

 

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

 

upon attainment of certain higher clarity you must hear and follow your tragedies and triumphs - your foundation is laid and their is now no sanctity in ignorance. You watch your rants and the folly everywhere - and it wears you raw - you learn to walk with no skin.

 

The foundation makes this possible.

 

Practice at times comes back - its intense - you know it - you assimilate at a rate far faster than before - the extreme odd squeeze of inner vs outer life - relative and emergent natural essence - its humiliating while of extreme cristaline clarity and beautiful light.

 

and like a walk in the park - one day grace comes and the suffering has vanished.

 

nothing you ever read prepared you for it - nothing was even close - it takes years to find words- and years more (of practice)

as the bodies grow and aclimate and residuals fall away. 

 

I hope this happens, definitely.

 

3 hours ago, Spotless said:

For many siddhis come now and these take them - like walking on gems and living in light - they find peace and words in these

attainments.

 

with regard to your inquiry - these are jewelry - even more - like chocolate served to your nose in a golden bowl - and you can breath it in and share it through your eyes with others - they love the glow and it's easy to go with.

 

the root has no bottom - is in-conceivable - it is ever unfolding - only the books trap you, the ambrosia of knowing and now seeing. 

 

The lenses are off but the expansion has only just begun - the word "channel" is like an electron to a planet - what you conceptualized as "channel" is humorously underscoring what is happening - and it is a happening beyond all proportion.

 

Beyond this is beyond words.

 

I understand. I can describe the taste of an apple based on books, but I can't experience it for myself.

 

Do you recommend Raja Yoga for jhanas towards liberation?

[Spotless]

TaoGuy asked:

"Do you recommend Raja Yoga for jhanas towards liberation?"

end quote---

 

The following is what my practice looked like - for me Yoga and Qi Gong worked - so did life and struggles:

 

After the initial Yoga practice Yoga became a life practice. I reached a sustained change within two years and went into life.

lost myself while watching for about ten years.

 

then for about ten years I once again practiced some 1-4+ hours a day most of the week (simple meditation - no postures) playing with siddhis, meditating, openly working with abilities, healing, many practices.

 

again I went off hammering away and being destroyed then picking up the pieces - some 15 years.

 

then again practice - 6 hours a day meditation for around a year to clarify myself and speak to my son before birth and after - then some letup and then again 3-6 hours a day everyday in my son's room over a year - then very unexpectedly Awakened in this - then Qi Gong nearly everyday over five years now. 

 

Qi Gong post Awakening - post many things - it has been phenomenal.

Fohan Quan Qi Gong from a Grand Master and the president of Fohan Quan in China - a simple monk here in the San Francisco Bay Area. 

 

Simple meditation - non-trance - this was my base practice - sometimes 18 hours. 

 

Qi Gong in Awakening has seen me past "myself" - it is ongoing - massive changes so constant. I do not know this practice prior to Awakening. The changes - the jhanas (I'm new to this term) - this is no longer torture, it is not painful, it is not in effort - it is simply so massive and on going - at times the gratitude is beyond tears - and it keeps coming - happening.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by Spotless

[doc benway]

20 hours ago, taoguy said:

Let's say we do non-dwelling meditation. Why is it that when I stay in a state of observation, yes, I do get some bliss, but there's nothing beyond that? I do get to points where I don't feel my body for example. But there's always this 'plateau' or point where nothing goes on. It feels as if I hit a stumbling block each time.

 

Surely some kind of deeper-layer stuff should come up. But it's not really doing it.

 

The phrase "non-dwelling meditation" implies resting in non-duality. 

In the non-dual state, there is nothing lacking, nothing needed, it is perfect just as it is. 

I think it's important to look carefully and critically at your practice, especially if you don't have the benefit of a teacher or guide. If we are not abiding with skill and precision, we can waste a lot of time and energy. 

 

The very question you are asking is a manifestation of the grasping mind. This pattern is precisely what prevents us from connecting to those deeper experiences. A great place to work is with that very thought, that pattern of desire (or aversion). There are different ways to work with it depending on your tradition - renunciation, transformation, or self-liberation. However you approach it, working with these very patterns that arise for us, as unique individuals, is what is necessary. We can certainly work on the cushion but we must gradually do more and more of the work in our moment to moment thoughts, words, and actions - in real life.

 

There are other things that I think can be very supportive - things like sincere prayer, creating a sacred space for practice, connection to a living lineage and master, trust, gratitude, devotion. These practices developed in a culture that deeply values such things. Extracting the practices out of the culture can cut us off from an important source of fuel and support. 

 

Good luck!

 

 

 

 

[shortstuff]

What does your question really mean. I mean how do you know if you have had a full *8 channel kundalini awakening* and by that I mean...how do you know it was 8 channels? I honestly never heard of the 8 channel part myself, I thought there were 2, pingala and nadi ?

Also how do you know if that is the real DNotS?

I ask because I had a spiritual awakening, not a kundalini one, no spinal electricity etc - and then dark night of the soul for 2 years - 2 years of hell - a good 6 months of that was real hell - after being hypnotised - so was that not a real dark night of the soul? Because it sure matched all the symptoms described on /r/kundalini and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[taoguy]

On 6/18/2017 at 6:52 AM, shortstuff said:

What does your question really mean. I mean how do you know if you have had a full *8 channel kundalini awakening* and by that I mean...how do you know it was 8 channels? I honestly never heard of the 8 channel part myself, I thought there were 2, pingala and nadi ?

Also how do you know if that is the real DNotS?

I ask because I had a spiritual awakening, not a kundalini one, no spinal electricity etc - and then dark night of the soul for 2 years - 2 years of hell - a good 6 months of that was real hell - after being hypnotised - so was that not a real dark night of the soul? Because it sure matched all the symptoms described on /r/kundalini and I wouldn't wish it on anyone.

 

I meant the Qi Jing Ba Mai (8 extraordinary vessels) of the Taoist system:

 

 

The chong mai is essentially similar to your central sushumna:

 

Quoting a famous Chan master from this excerpt:

 

Quote

一个人健康的人活着，你觉得自己有快乐吗？不见得，不是头难过就是眼睛不对，再不然牙齿痛，两个腿盘久了又麻，又酸，说打坐禅定很乐，盘腿，我的妈，好苦哦！一点乐都没有，离生喜乐，我只有今生受苦。也得了初禅的一部分，两个腿盘着叫我坐在那里半天不动，没有得离生喜乐，得个现生受罪，对不对？这一定都得了的，就没有达到初禅有脱离之感，喜乐，修密宗讲气脉通了，什么奇经八脉通了，真正气脉通了，奇经八脉通了为了什么？为了达到初禅的离生喜乐的“乐”，“乐”是什么？得一个非常快感的境界，这个快感的境界一来，什么男人想女人，女人想男人，对不住，离，一点事不相干不需要了，因为他的本身发起的乐感超越了这个。

 

He is saying that the 8 extraordinary vessels must all be opened for people to feel the first factor of the first Dhyana (joy and bliss). He also says you no longer have lust in this realm, so I assume this is similar to Taoist jing accumulation (when full of jing, there is no lust; full of chi, no eating; full of shen, no sleep).

 

 

[Fa Xin]

Hi taoguy,

 

I'll post as a "devils advocate", to maybe offer a different perspective for you.

 

I know you have these goals in mind, and I applaud your determination and focus.

 

Isn't it true that Buddhism (and maybe even Taoism) - one of the foundations of the practice is to drop such goals?  What your looking for appears to be "outside of self" (expectation), and in the future (thoughts).

 

What you seem to be doing is taking these Master's teachings...many of which I don't understand... and using them as some sort of road map to what you *should* achieve before XYZ happens. 

 

The 8 extraordinary vessels, do you know what they feel like? Have you experienced them on an energetic level? All of the advice and teachings from enlightened masters have absolutely ZERO value unless we can apply them to our situation now.

 

Instead of trying to achieve things, try to drop things. Try to shed your beliefs about awakening, let them drop away.  Let expectations drop away, let your seeking drop away.  Just try it, like an experiment. See how you feel.

 

Many people want to be free, yet they pick up many practices and beliefs. How can you be free when your carrying around such ideas and thoughts?

 

There's many people on this thread who gave great advice.  A few of them have actually awakened fully, or are in the process of awakening. There are pointers all throughout this thread.

 

No one is going to tell you exactly what to do or how to do it - because it is different for everyone.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[taoguy]

10 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Hi taoguy,

 

I'll post as a "devils advocate", to maybe offer a different perspective for you.

 

I know you have these goals in mind, and I applaud your determination and focus.

 

Isn't it true that Buddhism (and maybe even Taoism) - one of the foundations of the practice is to drop such goals?  What your looking for appears to be "outside of self" (expectation), and in the future (thoughts).

 

What you seem to be doing is taking these Master's teachings...many of which I don't understand... and using them as some sort of road map to what you *should* achieve before XYZ happens. 

 

The 8 extraordinary vessels, do you know what they feel like? Have you experienced them on an energetic level? All of the advice and teachings from enlightened masters have absolutely ZERO value unless we can apply them to our situation now.

 

Instead of trying to achieve things, try to drop things. Try to shed your beliefs about awakening, let them drop away.  Let expectations drop away, let your seeking drop away.  Just try it, like an experiment. See how you feel.

 

Many people want to be free, yet they pick up many practices and beliefs. How can you be free when your carrying around such ideas and thoughts?

 

There's many people on this thread who gave great advice.  A few of them have actually awakened fully, or are in the process of awakening. There are pointers all throughout this thread.

 

No one is going to tell you exactly what to do or how to do it - because it is different for everyone.

 

Please don't get me wrong, I'm simply replying to the question above because he asked about the 8 channels and what they were. I never said dropping things is something I don't do.

 

Teachings are there to make sure you're doing things the right way. Even the Buddha himself needed a mentor (his previous masters in past lives). Even if you think you're 'dropping things', are you really dropping things, or clinging to a false-emptiness? That's another issue teachings can resolve. Teachings help to tell people - hey, you're doing this wrong and hey, you're doing this right - that's all. They're methods and landmarks.

 

But landmarks also mean that if people do not experience them, they are simply not in the same ching-tzeh (jing-jie/alambana/realm). Everything happens in realm, conduct and fruit. Disregarding landmarks is in my opinion a very dumb thing to do, because masters have already laid out the map, and if you don't use that to verify your own progress, it's akin to walking alone, which you could do if you're a Pratekya-buddha but frankly the chances of that is minuscule.

 

I believe people have attained samadhi here, that's why I'm asking who has reached jhana. I'm not asking anything about my own practice. But I guess people want to keep their achievements secret, which I respect. What I feel a little strange about this is that people are giving advice on my practice instead of saying whether they have gone through the landmarks. Pretty weird, as if there is some mentor-complex going on here. But I do appreciate the reminders, perhaps you read the energetic signature behind my words and I've definitely taken the advice - if you've already seen that I've clicked 'Thanks' on the posts before.

 

Even if someone is enlightened, they shouldn't think they are enlightened, because that indicates a grasping to ego and self-achievement. They could 'call' themselves enlightened according to the realm they are in though. But I guess that's another reason why someone in jhana wouldn't reveal that they are. 

[Spotless]

18 hours ago, taoguy said:

 

I meant the Qi Jing Ba Mai (8 extraordinary vessels) of the Taoist system:

 

 

The chong mai is essentially similar to your central sushumna:

 

Quoting a famous Chan master from this excerpt:

 

 

He is saying that the 8 extraordinary vessels must all be opened for people to feel the first factor of the first Dhyana (joy and bliss). He also says you no longer have lust in this realm, so I assume this is similar to Taoist jing accumulation (when full of jing, there is no lust; full of chi, no eating; full of shen, no sleep).

 

 

The colored drawing of the Chong Mai is incorrect - basically the two blue lines are two far forward at the top of the head. 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Spotless

[roger]

On June 12, 2017 at 1:35 AM, taoguy said:

 

I'm not looking for forms to cling onto, but insights to destroy my delusional state.

 

Accept yourself as you are and do what feels great.

 

Growth happens naturally that way.

 

Don't try so hard to figure everything out. Guidance and answers will come when you're ready for them.

[allinone]

On ‎12‎.‎06‎.‎2017 at 7:29 AM, taoguy said:

Curious, because I wish to seek advice about meditation...

 

By Jhana, I mean the Mahayana-sutra-defined Jhana, hard jhanas, not the soft-jhana or vippasana-style jhanas defined by new-age buddhism that do not adhere to the sutra's definitions. I mean:

 

1. Firstly raising kundalini to open the 8 extraordinary channels, front and back, middle, left and right for physical agitations/karmic-formations/fabrications (through jhanas 1 and 2)
2. Then entering dark night through mental agitations/karmic-formations/fabrications (through jhanas 3 and 4).

 

Anyone?  Would love some advice on how to get there.

 

know how to fill and empty the heart. This has a name too but i don't want to speculate. But Its necessary to have that done.

Once you empty the heart, you don't have anything, also everything is ordinary, and you can't do nothing. There is no special pointers what to do because there is nothing to see besides ordinary. Then comes spirits or whatever start to command you. You will then fill the heart, lets see second time.

 

How to then empty the heart,  you need to have it full again so your mind will see it or realize it.

I think you need to know how to make yourself small and get a sense that anyone could use you for work or tasks and you will have to do it. Its a sign you are not at least ordinary animal anymore but are able to listen. So you can by your daily tasks and behavior to fill the heart. Then when it is filled you realize you can empty it, not sure but you still have to figure a bit in order to do it, it will unconsciously empty itself, so you start again till you see it how it empties, your own mind sees it first, then you can repeat it.

Third time is you do it and its after your mind has seen it. And its not on a place of the heart anymore when you do it.

 

when your heart is empty, there is the sense organ also empty. Just the sense-organ ability to focus in(not on a object but the spatiality or room of sense organ consciousness). When you focus on that emptiness or nothingness, it is also the bottom, the substance or water will flow, then its done. There is lot of struggle because the karma in these points are heavy, these points involve unconsciousness actions for a yin, so it is painful because you making yourself small and you have to listen small tasks.

 

You can't cut straight to strict following of rules of a book, you need to follow orders of a yin and these orders aren't nice often but you will purify by paying debts and get to know what to do. I think its yin, this also cause you a lot of suffering, because of ignorance.

[johndoe2012]

Have you tried following the Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace? 

 

It is jhana based practice. I reached a blissful state a few times using the book but I stopped using the book after a while. 

[Marblehead]

7 minutes ago, johndoe2012 said:

... but I stopped using the book after a while. 

Couldn't handle the blissful state of being?

 

[johndoe2012]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Couldn't handle the blissful state of being?

 

It was more the attention deficit disorder kicking in :-)

 

Many years later and this aspect has been ironed out almost completely using various healing practices and due to being in the presence of various masters. 

[X2471990]

If you want to reach Jhana concentrate on this very second in existence and remove identification with all thoughts. Completely concentrate on the arising and falling of breath. Please know from a Buddhist perspective that Jhana and getting  attached to this is samamsara yes these states are a part of that path but there are not the goal. Nor are they needed to obtain enlightenment. I posted a form it's titled Buddhism karma and the great sunyata I recommend reading if your interested in Buddhism. Understand the Buddha taught with a open hand there where no secrets so be mindful of people question your motive with Buddhist practices

[X2471990]

If you do this correctly and experience bliss illumination felling like you disappear. Stop and come back to the world you can always go back to that state. This is very important do not make the mistake in abiding in that state for to long.

[X2471990]

As far as the whole dark nigh thing goes it unnecessary to experience. And it can come in many forms. Buddhism is one of the most misunderstood spiritual disaplines in the western world.

[X2471990]

If you where do the above practices correctly. And followed my advice to not take that state of being to far and came out of that in a state of peace mindfulness. You may experience levels of depression dissatisfaction and what not. But this whole dark night of the soul tends to arise due to wrong perceptions that we have when we come out of the state I mentioned above. And it's as easy to go through or as hard to go through as you make it or it may not be necessary for you to experience. 

[taoguy]

21 hours ago, X2471990 said:

 Nor are they needed to obtain enlightenment.

 

I appreciate your good will. However, the part I quoted is simply incorrect. It is the kind of lie that gets propagated again and again in the 'mind-only' crowd. Just because you do not dwell in it does not mean that they are "not needed". 

 

This is the kind of statement that will destroy the Dharma - the Buddha himself said that his Dharma will be destroyed when a 'new, false Dharma' is propagated over his own words, and beings cannot tell the difference between the real and false. Can you hold yourself responsible for that kind of karma? If you can, then I will listen to you.

 

If you truly know Buddhism, you will know that in nearly every single sutra, shastra or Tantra that you can find, you are right - jhana is certainly not the goal. However, it is part of the Noble Eightfold Path, and yes, it is absolutely needed for enlightenment.

 

Awakening to the Path is not the same as Enlightenment. Sudden awakening is not the same as completely purifying the seeds in the Alaya consciousness and freeing yourself from karmic forces that do not exist inside the brain neither inside one's vijnana consciousness.

 

Many people, upon hearing the Buddha, have sudden faith in the Buddha and the path he teaches - 'awakening'. Some had already been cultivating in Brahman ways, using kundalini and all that, and simply needed guidance in prajna-wisdom, just like one of the ascetics that approached the Buddha.

 

Even in the Zen texts, there are records of Small and Great awakenings. There are 'mind-seals' that are non-verbally transmitted from master to disciple. This is the basis of lineages or Shaktipat or initiations. Some awaken fast because they have already done the work in previous lifetimes. Some awaken slow because they do the work in their current lifetime.

 

I quote the Buddha himself from the Jhana sutta:

 

Quote

"I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the first jhana... the second jhana... the third... the fourth... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness. I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

 

ETC...

 

"Staying right there, he reaches the ending of the mental fermentations. Or, if not, then — through this very dhamma-passion, this very dhamma-delight, and from the total wasting away of the first five of the fetters — he is due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world.

 

"'I tell you, the ending of the mental fermentations depends on the dimension of the infinitude of space.' Thus was it said, and in reference to this was it said. 

 

"Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two dimensions — the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception — I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them."

 

And the Buddha's own words on whether one should cultivate them purposefully in the Magga-vibhanga Sutta:

 

Quote

The Blessed One said, "I will teach & analyze for you the Noble Eightfold Path. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

 

etc...

 

"And what, monks, is right SAMADHI? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right samadhi."

 

As enlightened Nan Huai Jin says, the 'Mahayana' approach of trying to simply non-dwell is incomplete because you also need the development of the body along with the development of the mind. This is supported very easily by looking at any sutta in the Pali Canon to do with the meditation procedure - they are referred to as bodily sankhara and mental sankhara.

 

He teaches that without Hinayana enlightenment, even dreaming of Mahayana enlightenment is futile and is delusional. Even the Bodhisattva teachings were only given after the disciples became Arahants.

 

Yes, Zazen meditation can eventually lead to that - but as he further explains, most people simply go into dead-tree Zen where they do not awaken the yuan-chi or Kundalini. Instead, they cultivate themselves to become mindless ghosts that rebirth as animals.

 

So jhana itself is required, because jhanas 1 to 2 indicate purification of body sankharas, jhanas 3 to 4 indicate purification of mental sankharas (some) and as quoted above, the samadhis beyond 4th jhana deal with higher mental 'fermentations', eventually leading to full enlightenment.

 

Nan Huai Jin described it as generating the 'mind created from intent' - in the Buddhist texts this is called the mano-kaya, or the 'body generated by will' or the 'Rainbow Body' in Tantra. This body is used as the vehicle to move towards full enlightenment.

 

I completely agree - yes, they are not the goal. But how many can really accomplish it? Genuinely? It is equivalent to becoming a 'demi-god' with deva-powers (this is from the Buddha again - in that first jhana corrresponds to the first rupa-heaven and so on). Devas that can move in and out of realms, have far more accomplished senses than we have, and a higher intelligent faculty.

Edited June 26, 2017 by taoguy

[Spotless]

38 minutes ago, taoguy said:

 

I appreciate your good will. However, the part I quoted is simply incorrect. It is the kind of lie that gets propagated again and again in the 'mind-only' crowd. Just because you do not dwell in it does not mean that they are "not needed". 

 

This is the kind of statement that will destroy the Dharma - the Buddha himself said that his Dharma will be destroyed when a 'new, false Dharma' is propagated over his own words, and beings cannot tell the difference between the real and false. Can you hold yourself responsible for that kind of karma? If you can, then I will listen to you.

 

If you truly know Buddhism, you will know that in nearly every single sutra, shastra or Tantra that you can find, you are right - jhana is certainly not the goal. However, it is part of the Noble Eightfold Path, and yes, it is absolutely needed for enlightenment.

 

Awakening to the Path is not the same as Enlightenment. Sudden awakening is not the same as completely purifying the seeds in the Alaya consciousness and freeing yourself from karmic forces that do not exist inside the brain neither inside one's vijnana consciousness.

 

Many people, upon hearing the Buddha, have sudden faith in the Buddha and the path he teaches - 'awakening'. Some had already been cultivating in Brahman ways, using kundalini and all that, and simply needed guidance in prajna-wisdom, just like one of the ascetics that approached the Buddha.

 

Even in the Zen texts, there are records of Small and Great awakenings. There are 'mind-seals' that are non-verbally transmitted from master to disciple. This is the basis of lineages or Shaktipat or initiations. Some awaken fast because they have already done the work in previous lifetimes. Some awaken slow because they do the work in their current lifetime.

 

I quote the Buddha himself from the Jhana sutta:

 

 

And the Buddha's own words on whether one should cultivate them purposefully in the Magga-vibhanga Sutta:

 

 

As enlightened Nan Huai Jin says, the 'Mahayana' approach of trying to simply non-dwell is incomplete because you also need the development of the body along with the development of the mind. This is supported very easily by looking at any sutta in the Pali Canon to do with the meditation procedure - they are referred to as bodily sankhara and mental sankhara.

 

He teaches that without Hinayana enlightenment, even dreaming of Mahayana enlightenment is futile and is delusional. Even the Bodhisattva teachings were only given after the disciples became Arahants.

 

Yes, Zazen meditation can eventually lead to that - but as he further explains, most people simply go into dead-tree Zen where they do not awaken the yuan-chi or Kundalini. Instead, they cultivate themselves to become mindless ghosts that rebirth as animals.

 

So jhana itself is required, because jhanas 1 to 2 indicate purification of body sankharas, jhanas 3 to 4 indicate purification of mental sankharas (some) and as quoted above, the samadhis beyond 4th jhana deal with higher mental 'fermentations', eventually leading to full enlightenment.

 

Nan Huai Jin described it as generating the 'mind created from intent' - in the Buddhist texts this is called the mano-kaya, or the 'body generated by will' or the 'Rainbow Body' in Tantra. This body is used as the vehicle to move towards full enlightenment.

 

I completely agree - yes, they are not the goal. But how many can really accomplish it? Genuinely? It is equivalent to becoming a 'demi-god' with deva-powers (this is from the Buddha again - in that first jhana corrresponds to the first rupa-heaven and so on). Devas that can move in and out of realms, have far more accomplished senses than we have, and a higher intelligent faculty.

Many very fine points here that do not appear as fine points - we think in terms of cupcake recipe's:

 

Awakening is a base point in a shift into Presence - a marker in Enlightenment but rarely Enlightenment in its latter stages.

As a proof of the above quote - it is often seen those that Awaken and revert back to the illusion of mind - it is such a habit and not enough of them has tired of this lost-self-hood.

 

In the Awakened state one has residual - one has at the very least DNA residual.

Bodies form and are forming in the Awakened state - this is very much related to continued work - a lineage can be both helpful and unhelpful here - helpful in the context of the quote above, recognition of the pitfalls and enfolding to continue - unhelpful in that they give you words too easily and you grasp them and settle into a substate - Awake but not in Higher Enlightenment - far from it - a good teacher that is no longer suffering but with a great deal of unrealized potential and subject again to the wheel.

 

A clarity occurs in the Awakened state - but mists still abound if only in that bodies are not yet developed to allow for the boundless.

 

And it is not easy to see where "one" is - it is easy to accept the "knowing" and linger in the embrace of no longer seeking - and play in teaching - but not see the hub of ones jacket - the jacket of remaining relative elements and the still passive inertias of what is needed for you to not go mad.

 

The residuals are needed for an Awakened one to the extent that they are still encumbered.

 

Edited June 26, 2017 by Spotless

[X2471990]

That's not what is meant by false dharma: the Buddha himself warned against jahnna and your interpretation of karma from a Buddhist stand point is in correct. I wrote a arrival on this called Buddhism karma and the great sunyata under the Buddhist section you might find that useful.

[X2471990]

And you are looking to much into the info. Remember in zen they say to empty the cup. 

[X2471990]

A felling of interconnectedness is definitely needed I agree with that . But Jhana is not enlightenment in Buddhism. 

[X2471990]

But if seeking Jhana makes you happy then buy all means persue it. False dharma can be found In many western zen sects as well as the popular Tibetan Buddhist sect. That is a whole other discussion.

[taoguy]

4 minutes ago, X2471990 said:

But if seeking Jhana makes you happy then buy all means persue it. False dharma can be found In many western zen sects as well as the popular Tibetan Buddhist sect. That is a whole other discussion.

 

Perhaps it is the way you phrased it, but what I was saying was that jhana is required, not 'unnecessary'. Without jhana, there is no genuine Buddhist enlightenment. You cannot 'skip' to enlightenment unless you are a master emanating as one of the remaining seven lives as a seven-returner, or so on. Zen certainly goes through the four dhyanas as well, true Zen teachers like Nan Huai Jin do not reject jhanas. I agree that there shouldn't be clinging onto jhanas. But you cannot deny that jhanas are required.

[taoguy]

19 minutes ago, Spotless said:

Many very fine points here that do not appear as fine points - we think in terms of cupcake recipe's:

 

Awakening is a base point in a shift into Presence - a marker in Enlightenment but rarely Enlightenment in its latter stages.

As a proof of the above quote - it is often seen those that Awaken and revert back to the illusion of mind - it is such a habit and not enough of them has tired of this lost-self-hood.

 

In the Awakened state one has residual - one has at the very least DNA residual.

Bodies form and are forming in the Awakened state - this is very much related to continued work - a lineage can be both helpful and unhelpful here - helpful in the context of the quote above, recognition of the pitfalls and enfolding to continue - unhelpful in that they give you words too easily and you grasp them and settle into a substate - Awake but not in Higher Enlightenment - far from it - a good teacher that in is no longer suffering but with a great deal of unrealized potential and subject again to the wheel.

 

Thank you for this. I experienced exactly what you said - awakening in youth but deliberating moving into the illusion of mind to 'engage' with the world, and as a process, getting mingled with it and lost again. Then I rediscovered Buddhism and am trying to move towards the stream once again.