The varieties of contemplative experience: A mixed-methods study of meditation-related challenges in Western Buddhists

[qicat]

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0176239

 

thoughts?...

 

Buddhist-derived meditation practices are currently being employed as a popular form of health promotion. While meditation programs draw inspiration from Buddhist textual sources for the benefits of meditation, these sources also acknowledge a wide range of other effects beyond health-related outcomes. The Varieties of Contemplative Experience study investigates meditation-related experiences that are typically underreported, particularly experiences that are described as challenging, difficult, distressing, functionally impairing, and/or requiring additional support. A mixed-methods approach featured qualitative interviews with Western Buddhist meditation practitioners and experts in Theravāda, Zen, and Tibetan traditions. Interview questions probed meditation experiences and influencing factors, including interpretations and management strategies. A follow-up survey provided quantitative assessments of causality, impairment and other demographic and practice-related variables. The content-driven thematic analysis of interviews yielded a taxonomy of 59 meditation-related experiences across 7 domains: cognitive, perceptual, affective, somatic, conative, sense of self, and social. Even in cases where the phenomenology was similar across participants, interpretations of and responses to the experiences differed considerably. The associated valence ranged from very positive to very negative, and the associated level of distress and functional impairment ranged from minimal and transient to severe and enduring. In order to determine what factors may influence the valence, impact, and response to any given experience, the study also identified 26 categories of influencing factors across 4 domains: practitioner-level factors, practice-level factors, relationships, and health behaviors. By identifying a broader range of experiences associated with meditation, along with the factors that contribute to the presence and management of experiences reported as challenging, difficult, distressing or functionally impairing, this study aims to increase our understanding of the effects of contemplative practices and to provide resources for mediators, clinicians, meditation researchers, and meditation teachers.

[doc benway]

It is healthy to teach people about what meditation truly is and what it is designed for.

I think the study above is particularly valuable for people who enjoy the pleasant experience of meditative rest so much that they dig a little deeper and continue with the practice until confronting deeper and darker aspects of themselves - illusions, misconceptions, repressed and suppressed psychological and emotional obstacles, and so forth. 

It is nice to see the scientific method utilized to study meditation and related practices.

While I don't think experiential practices can ever be reduced to data points, investigation generally does lead to deeper understanding and potential for wider audiences and application.

 

In the West, meditation is largely misunderstood and misrepresented, especially among New Age and non-spiritual participants.

It has primarily become billed as a simple technique to experience short periods of relaxation and pleasure.

While meditation can certainly lead to experiences of peace, relaxation, and provide physical and mental health benefits, we are really only talking about side effects of the method, not the ultimate aim or deeper fruition.

 

In brief, meditation is a tool to help us cut through and dismantle our false concepts about who and what we are and open us ultimately to a deeper and more stable realization of ourselves.

That necessarily comes with a considerable degree of difficulty and challenge.

It's not too much of a problem if one is expecting this and has the support of an experienced guide and spiritual family.

It can be a big problem for DIY'ers, especially those with emotional and psychological baggage and instability or for those who are practicing with inadequate guidance and support. 

 

Similarly, there are profound misconceptions about yoga in the West. While there are many different perspectives on the history, value, and purpose of yoga, this article raises some very interesting points - https://www.yogajournal.com/yoga-101/yoga-s-greater-truth. 

[qicat]

On 6/13/2017 at 9:53 AM, steve said:

 

In brief, meditation is a tool to help us cut through and dismantle our false concepts about who and what we are and open us ultimately to a deeper and more stable realization of ourselves.

That necessarily comes with a considerable degree of difficulty and challenge.

It's not too much of a problem if one is expecting this and has the support of an experienced guide and spiritual family.

It can be a big problem for DIY'ers, especially those with emotional and psychological baggage and instability or for those who are practicing with inadequate guidance and support. 

 

 

yes. This is 100% correct.

 

This is why I do not understand why it is not being openly told "In the West, meditation is largely misunderstood and misrepresented, especially among New Age and non-spiritual participants." I guess then there would be no one willing to learn?

 

I am glad to see more scientific research is showing up. I was thinking about getting back to school and perhaps do a PhD on this. The danger I am seeing to the general public is that while they think they are getting ( and paying) for "love and light", the reality is more closer to straight path to psychotic episodes. 

 

If you are a meditation teacher, are you being honest with your students or do you go with "New Age" sell?

 

My Sifu told me right away, "Cat, things will get shitty. One week you will come to me and say you cannot do it anymore."  

Lama told us , "Don't do wrathful practices, westerners cannot handle it." 

 

Yet you type "meditation" in google and you get gazillions "Be happy in 12 nano seconds... for 100 dollars, with a discount just for you for 9.99"...

 

Something just does not add up...

 

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, qicat said:

 

yes. This is 100% correct.

 

This is why I do not understand why it is not being openly told "In the West, meditation is largely misunderstood and misrepresented, especially among New Age and non-spiritual participants." I guess then there would be no one willing to learn?

 

I am glad to see more scientific research is showing up. I was thinking about getting back to school and perhaps do a PhD on this. The danger I am seeing to the general public is that while they think they are getting ( and paying) for "love and light", the reality is more closer to straight path to psychotic episodes. 

 

While meditation (depending on the particular practice) might aggravate the condition of an already unstable personality in some cases, it can help them to become more centered too.

 

Based on my work with psychiatric patients, I would say that a reasonable meditation practice can play a major role in the restoration and maintenance of mental health.

 

1 hour ago, qicat said:

If you are a meditation teacher, are you being honest with your students or do you go with "New Age" sell?

 

My Sifu told me right away, "Cat, things will get shitty. One week you will come to me and say you cannot do it anymore."  

Lama told us , "Don't do wrathful practices, westerners cannot handle it." 

 

Yet you type "meditation" in google and you get gazillions "Be happy in 12 nano seconds... for 100 dollars, with a discount just for you for 9.99"...

 

Something just does not add up...

 

Such dubious offers are a different story, of course.

[liminal_luke]

Mexicans love cream cheese in their sushi rolls.  There`s nothing particularly Japanese about such a lunch, but it`s tasty enough.  Philadelphia rolls are to Japanese food as mindfulness training is to Buddhism -- inauthentic but nice.  Many people can benefit from such watered-down teachings.  Mindfulness is often presented as a scientifically validated way to deal with stress; in such presentations, eastern cultural trappings are stripped away.  People who would otherwise consider meditation a tad freaky are persuaded to close their eyes and breathe.  In my opinion, this is all to the good. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by liminal_luke

[qicat]

4 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Philadelphia rolls are to Japanese food as mindfulness training is to Buddhism -- inauthentic but nice.  Many people can benefit from such watered-down teachings.  Mindfulness is often presented as a scientifically validated way to deal with stress; in such presentations, eastern cultural trappings are stripped away.  

 I used to love sushi, but now I am more into sashimi and poke salads. Whatever they make into sushi rolls these days is anything but fish...

 

However, that's where I see a trap : going deeper into meditation will make anyone "unstable" if "normality" is used a benchmark. And this is what not being disclosed by "watered down" systems of McMeditation, but is said upfront by teachers of eastern traditions in lineages counting thousand years old. Why Vajrayana is counted as most dangerous one? Like walking on a cliff with your eyes tied? Because it is the way it is. Why in Daoism mental( shen) training is one of the last ones, after one mastered physical and emotional bodies? 

 

I predict as Westerners have more and more stress, the more and more they will turn to branded meditation as stress reduction and the more and more mental health and physical health issues will come up. Unlucky ones will end in hospitals racking up bills for treatment which would not be working ( issue is not in the body). Lucky ones will read research as one presented above and hopefully will figure something out. 

 

p.s. When things got weird for me, I was lucky to get a Buddhist shrink who kind of explained to me what siddhis are. If I met one who did not have buddhist education in addition to his western psychology, I am not sure I would still be functioning right now. When you run into something which is outside of your frame of living, it is very taxing on the brain to accept that version of reality. If you don't know what I am talking about, try watching this movie without a judgement... I wonder how long you will last from either accepting or denying his point of view ( earth is 6 thousand years old)

 

https://www.isgenesishistory.com/

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2017 by qicat

[liminal_luke]

56 minutes ago, qicat said:

 

However, that's where I see a trap : going deeper into meditation will make anyone "unstable" if "normality" is used a benchmark. And this is what not being disclosed by "watered down" systems of McMeditation, but is said upfront by teachers of eastern traditions in linages counting thousand years old. Why Vajrayana is counted as most dangerous one? Like walking on a cliff with your eyes tied? Because it is the way it is. Why in Daoism mental( shen) training is one of the last ones, after one mastered physical and emotional bodies? 

 

I predict as Westerners have more and more stress, the more and more they will turn to branded meditation as stress reduction and the more and more mental health and physical health issues will come up. Unlucky ones will end in hospitals racking up bills for treatment which would not be working ( issue is not in the body). Lucky ones will read research as one presented above and hopefully will figure something out. 

 

 

Mindfulness meditation, such as that promoted by Jon Kabat-Zinn (https://www.mindfulnesscds.com/pages/about-the-author), is offered in the hopes that it will improve people`s physical and mental health.  Generally speaking, it does just that. Most people who begin a modest practice of following along with a guided meditation CD for 20 to 45 minutes daily experience benefits. Such meditation may occasionally be difficult, as when increased mindfulness brings an upsetting physical or emotional circumstance into awareness, but people who persevere receive benefit.  They learn to relax, and regular deep relaxation initiates a cascade of positive physiological changes.

 

Of course what works for most people doesn`t work for everybody.  It`s just like anything else.  Valerian is a good herb to use if you have trouble sleeping, unless of course you happen to be one of the few people who find it stimulating.  In that case, it`s wise to discontinue use of the herb.  A little common sense goes a long ways  A person who starts a program of mindfulness meditation and starts having negative experiences should consider stopping, or perhaps get in-person guidance for their particular situation  

 

Dosage is important.  It`s one thing to follow along with a CD once daily, another to start an intense program of sitting for hours on end.  The average person trying out mindfulness for health purposes is unlikely to experience kundalini, dark-night-of-the-soul phenomenon, or troublesome siddhis.  Performed as directed, a mindfulness practice is a whole lot safer than taking most pharmaceutical drugs.  And the side effects are generally happy ones.     

Edited June 15, 2017 by liminal_luke

[qicat]

30 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Mindfulness meditation, such as that promoted by Jon Kabat-Zinn (https://www.mindfulnesscds.com/pages/about-the-author), is offered in the hopes that it will improve people`s physical and mental health.  Generally speaking, it does just that. Most people who begin a modest practice of following along with a guided meditation CD for 20 to 45 minutes daily experience benefits. Such meditation may occasionally be difficult, as when increased mindfulness brings an upsetting physical or emotional circumstance into awareness, but people who persevere receive benefit.  They learn to relax, and regular deep relaxation initiates a cascade of positive physiological changes.

 

Of course what works for most people doesn`t work for everybody.  It`s just like anything else.  Valerian is a good herb to use if you have trouble sleeping, unless of course you happen to be one of the few people who find it stimulating.  In that case, it`s wise to discontinue use of the herb.  A little common sense goes a long ways  A person who starts a program of mindfulness meditation and starts having negative experiences should consider stopping, or perhaps get in-person guidance for their particular situation  

 

Dosage is important.  It`s one thing to follow along with a CD once daily, another to start an intense program of sitting for hours on end.  The average person trying out mindfulness for health purposes is unlikely to experience kundalini, dark-night-of-the-soul phenomenon, or troublesome siddhis.  Performed as directed, a mindfulness practice is a whole lot safer than taking most pharmaceutical drugs.  And the side effects are generally happy ones.     

 

Luke, I am not questioning the effectiveness of the system. What you wrote is valid and validated. Yet what is not included in those workshops, yet is included in the study is an alarming chart of "issues" which shows up with time. Yes, for 6 and 12 weeks of workshops, the "happy yoga bunny" effect is in place.

 

This is why I think the studies like this are important. And I also believe that any resonable meditation teacher should disclose it in some form to his/her students at the beginning of the journey. 

 

p.s. It is interesting to see reported "issues". All of those symptoms are described in the medical qigong books and corresponding treatments. Thus, ancients were kind of aware that "happy meditation" has it's dark side...

 

 

 

 

[qicat]

note how many of those symptoms have a resonance with people's topics on this forum with something like this in the topic "Help, I did <meditation XYZ> and now I feel symptom <ABC> and option 1: went to the doctor and got drugs, option 2 : was hospitalized , option 3: did nothing and still have that pain/headache/eyeache/etc...

 

I don't even know where I am going with this. Maybe it will help somebody in someway. I dunno. 

[liminal_luke]

Hi Qicat,

 

I looked quickly at that study (where this graph comes from?) and got the impression that the data collected about the issues mentioned comes from Buddhist practitioners, not people who are more casually taking up mindfulness meditation for health.  Am I mistaken?  

 

To my mind, the distinction is a crucial one. Hardcore meditators, such as those who choose a monastic lifestyle, are very likely to experience issues.  Indeed, changes to "sense of self" are part of the path.  Buddhism and mindfulness-for-health are related activities but not identical.  The casual mindfulness practitioner will not become enlightened or experience liberation, though their blood pressure might go down.  Neither will such a person, in most instances, suffer from the kinds of impairment mentioned in the study.

[Michael Sternbach]

Good posts, Luke.

 

What you said also applies to other kinds of meditation.

 

Rosina Sonnenschmidt, a German author of books on homeopathy, believes that sitting in zazen for hours on end is tantamount to emotional repression which can eventually lead to cancer. Her evidence is purely anecdotal, but having undergone a fair amount of zazen myself, I would not rule out the possibility. However, I figure that, in such cases, it may be the inflexibility as a personality trait of the practitioner rather than the practice itself that were detrimental.

 

Dosage is important, and reason should prevail. Guidance, traditionally provided by a teacher, is often invaluable, but today is offered also by online resources such as this website.

 

An academic survey regarding a widely told Western meditation program called Silva Mind Control (of which I am a graduate) showed it to be beneficial for psychotic patients.

 

 

2 hours ago, qicat said:

 However, that's where I see a trap : going deeper into meditation will make anyone "unstable" if "normality" is used a benchmark.

 

Qicat,

 

By your use of quotation marks, you have put this statement into perspective yourself. While psychotherapists in times past indeed were prone to look at any deviations from "normality" as pathological, at least some of them meanwhile started questioning how sane society itself is, thus they no longer regard the standards it sets as be-all and end-all.

 

Bear in mind that individuals suffering from or susceptible to mental disturbances are usually already in conflict with those socio-cultural standards due to their views and sensitivities. A therapeutic approach meant to fit them back in (as often pursued by the application of psychotropic drugs) can never be called truly healing. Contrast this with the approach taken by traditional Shamanic societies, where an individual that would be diagnosed as psychotic in contemporary Western-style societies is regarded as having special psychic sensitivities and educated as a clairvoyant and healer.

 

So yes, deep and prolonged meditation practice may indeed play a role in leading you further away from socio-cultural norms, but it should also help you establish an extended framework in order to come to terms with unusual internal and external perceptions.

 

I do try to provide the people I am working with as an "alternative counsellor" with guidance along these lines. But it is true that practitioners pursuing this kind of approach are still rather the exception. If things develop well, meditation and related practices will be regarded as essential in the psychotherapy of the future, however.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

Hi Qicat,

 

I looked quickly at that study (where this graph comes from?) and got the impression that the data collected about the issues mentioned comes from Buddhist practitioners, not people who are more casually taking up mindfulness meditation for health.  Am I mistaken?  

 

To my mind, the distinction is a crucial one. Hardcore meditators, such as those who choose a monastic lifestyle, are very likely to experience issues.  Indeed, changes to "sense of self" are part of the path.  Buddhism and mindfulness-for-health are related activities but not identical.  The casual mindfulness practitioner will not become enlightened or experience liberation, though their blood pressure might go down.  Neither will such a person, in most instances, suffer from the kinds of impairment mentioned in the study.

 

"The VCE study recruited Buddhist meditation practitioners from across Theravāda, Zen, and Tibetan traditions. Inclusion criteria for practitioners required a minimum age of 18 years, a meditation practice in a Buddhist tradition, and the ability to report on meditation-related experience that was challenging, difficult, or was associated with significant physiological or psychological changes, including distress or impairment."

"The VCE study also recruited meditation experts who had either taught extensively in a Buddhist tradition or who had applied Buddhist meditation in clinical settings (or both). Inclusion criteria for experts were an occupational identity as a meditation teacher in a Buddhist lineage or as a clinician working with meditation-based therapies."

 

The study criteria don't seem to discriminate between practitioners' intent or the seriousness of their practice. There is no mention of frequency, length, duration, level of experience, etc... One group is all practitioners over 18 how can answer some questions, the second group was a group of "experts."

 

I think that quieting the inner voice will bring practitioners in touch with deeper and more subtle experiences of themselves over time, whether dedicated Buddhists or casual health seekers. This has the effect of bypassing defense mechanisms that both limit our confrontation with repressed/suppressed stimuli and maintain dysfunctional patterns of thought and behavior. I'm not sure you can have one without the other. I also think it is difficult to predict who will have difficulty. I suspect that is the intent of this study to a large degree. 

 

I find it interesting how quick some folks are to "teach meditation." I know people with very little training and very little depth of personal experience or transformation who are very happy to "teach" others how to meditate. Clearly there are those who do so for ego and money. I think many do so out of a sincere desire to help. Unfortunately, they are not aware of the potential for causing problems and are not prepared to help effectively when those problems arise. I think it's important for people to recognize the potential power in these practices and to treat them accordingly, including warnings to new practitioners that there may come a time when painful and frightening memories and experiences arise and some degree of preparation is valuable to mitigate negative consequences. 

[rex]

From all the different approaches and motivations out there it appears that meditation has different goals and rationales. There's meditation and then there's meditation. A lot depends on the context in which meditation is practiced, whether secular, spiritual or religious, and what practitioners are taught  to expect and advised on.

 

If meditation is seen solely as a means of relaxation and sedation from using a specific technique then those practicing with this view may be in for an unpleasant surprise when negativity eventually arises.

 

If meditation is seen as way of gaining insight and wisdom and holding a centre in the midst of inner storms then those practicing with this view will not be so perturbed when unpleasant stuff announces itself.
 

Edited June 16, 2017 by rex

[liminal_luke]

8 hours ago, steve said:

 

I think that quieting the inner voice will bring practitioners in touch with deeper and more subtle experiences of themselves over time, whether dedicated Buddhists or casual health seekers. This has the effect of bypassing defense mechanisms that both limit our confrontation with repressed/suppressed stimuli and maintain dysfunctional patterns of thought and behavior. I'm not sure you can have one without the other. I also think it is difficult to predict who will have difficulty. I suspect that is the intent of this study to a large degree. 

 

 

Steve,

 

Agreed.  I`m reminded of a time years ago when I`d set myself a goal to meditate for ten minutes a day.  One day, for some reason I couldn`t fathom, I had tremendous resistance to the practice.  I couldn`t figure it out: it was only ten minutes, why didn`t I just do it already? Finally, I sat down on my cushion to breathe and immediately burst into tears.

 

Meditation does indeed bypass "defense mechanisms that both limit our confrontation with repressed/suppressed stimuli and maintain dysfunctional patterns of thought and behavior."  I think that`s why it`s so effective for reducing stress and, in some instances, improving health.  Journal writing, especially about traumatic events, can do much the same thing.  In one study, patients with rheumatoid arthritis who regularly journaled about bad things that happened in their lives experienced subjective symptom improvement.  Getting honest with ourselves about difficult feelings and experiences is generally good for our physical well-being.

 

All this said, doesn`t mean it`s easy.  Most people will be able to ride through the emotional discomfort that comes up from listening on a daily basis to a guided 20 minute meditation CD and be the better for it; a smaller subset of people will experience greater difficulty.  In the interest of "informed consent," I think it`s reasonable that meditation instruction should come with a "warning" (too strong a word in my opinion, but something to that effect) that difficult emotions can emerge. For some few people, the practice is contraindicated.

 

Still, there`s a huge difference between the kinds of difficulties that can be expected when casually undertaking a mindfulness for health practice and, say, hardcore meditation in a long-term retreat setting.  Changes to "sense of self," for instance, that are an expected stage in vipassana practice, are very unlikely to occur to someone undertaking a mindfulness for health practice.  

 

Perhaps there`s a middle path here: a way to inform people that mindfulness for health training may cause emotional discomfort without overstating the "dangers" and scaring people away.  

Edited June 15, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Orion]

Meditation is a nice bait and switch for a lot of people. Mindfulness is in meditation, and then you "leave" it. But the meditation is always happening. The stillness is always there. When you meditate you're just stillness trying to be still. When you stop sitting there meditating and you go about your day, you just start meditating on other things... like what am I going to eat, where do I need to go, what do I need to do next?

 

Whether it's new agers or religious Buddhist, there's this idea that meditation is going to get you somewhere. It won't. The point of it is to show you what is already present. It doesn't add or remove anything. People who talk about meditation getting deeper and deeper are just duping themselves with their own neurochemical head trip. When you meditate for lengthy periods the body releases all kind of neurochemical cocktails that cause altered states. Then you think you're transcending when really you've started identifying with the body-mind all over again.

 

IMO meditation is a beginner level practice and then that mindfulness must be brought into ordinary reality as you move about your day, otherwise you risk getting caught in a myriad of head trips and notions of achievements. It's a beta wave state, and for deep meditators it's a delta wave state... they're temporary states like anything else. And like anything else, there's no permanently residing there.

 

The mental health stuff like hallucinations and psychiatric episodes from meditation is no doubt due to changes in brain wave state and the resultant effects it has on latent psychoemotional issues. For instance a lot of people with schizophrenia and bipolar only make short visits to delta wave sleep and tend to stick more to beta and shallow sleep; yet if they go try deep level meditation techniques they are forcing a brain wave state which may trigger them.

 

I don't believe science is the be all and end all but one thing that drives me nuts is how some modern Buddhists purport their faith to be really similar to modern psychology and to actually be scientific. That's how they get a lot of modern western followers. In reality they spinning stories about what the different states mean, including discussions about karma, past life interventions, subtle mind, etc.

 

We really must be careful when recommending meditation that we do not start spinning stories about transcendence or "getting some place". If meditation does not center you in the here and now then some other kind of koolaid is happening, whether it's someone else's or your own story about your meditation experience.

[doc benway]

A coworker today asked me about the safety of meditation retreats.

It appears that a 25 year old woman committed suicide recently after experiencing a psychotic break during a Goenka retreat. 

Very unfortunate story. 

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, steve said:

A coworker today asked me about the safety of meditation retreats.

It appears that a 25 year old woman committed suicide recently after experiencing a psychotic break during a Goenka retreat. 

Very unfortunate story. 

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html

 

Very sad. A lot of energetic stuff can unfold during something like a ten day retreat. It is critical to have qualified teachers who can help deal with such things.

[qicat]

2 hours ago, steve said:

A coworker today asked me about the safety of meditation retreats.

It appears that a 25 year old woman committed suicide recently after experiencing a psychotic break during a Goenka retreat. 

Very unfortunate story. 

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2017/06/york_county_suicide_megan_vogt.html

 

I read it few days ago on facebook. I was actually thinking to write about it in my Qi Deviation thread as there are certain symptoms the girl exhibited which to a trained TCM doctor would show the way to heal her out of it. Unfortunately, they did not have proper training to deal with it. 

 

Are there people on the forum who run such retreats? I am curious to hear how do they deal with it? From what I am understanding it is all about the spiritual strength of the teacher. I.e. will he/she be able to shield a student from the attack or not. Apparently, the battle for the souls is very real...

Edited July 3, 2017 by qicat
grammEr:P

[doc benway]

We have heard from members here who have experienced distress after this sort of forced immersion in vipassana.

And from some who have benefited deeply.

I have not heard from any teachers here to my recollection.

In a retreat of this nature, I would agree that a powerful and wise guide in attendance is essential. 

Videos and inexperienced practitioners just don't cut it...

 

 

[qicat]

linking