Daoism and Buddhism's Differences

[Kongming]

Veering off topic a bit but figured I'd share while its on my mind, but really the "immanent transcendence" that I've been mentioning is the philosophical or sacred quality behind Chinese 山水画 or shan shui painting. The world (the colored or defined parts) emerges out of the void (the Dao) which also remains present, interfused with, and contains the world, represented by the white or empty parts of the painting:

 

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, Kongming said:

 

You're ignoring where the Liezi states:

 

The Unborn can give birth to the born, the Unchanging can change the changing.
Therefore that which gives birth to things is unborn, that which changes things is unchanging.

 

That which is born and changing is the world, which is another facet (or rather the function or power of) of the Dao  but not its Absolute aspect, whereas the latter is that which is unborn and unchanging. A rough metaphor would be the sun and sunlight...they are one, but the sun in and of itself (the Dao as Absolute) is what emits the light (the Dao as being, change, the world, etc.)

 

Again change itself is the result of the interaction of yin and yang. Yin and yang's polarization is "the Two" and their interaction is "the Three." The Dao precedes the One, let alone the Two or Three, and thus precedes change.
 

 

 

First he refers to it as another dimension, referencing transcendence. Then he speaks of "crossing the barrier" by attaining that which has "no beginning and no ending", a reference to eternity. He then states that there is no point in that "other dimension" which can differentiate "no beginning" and "no ending" due to the fact that there is "no time gap and no space gap", referencing the timeless and spaceless qualities of transcendence.
 

 

 

Did you miss the part where I stated that the unchanging Absolute contains the world of change and thus is not separate from it? That how we perceive reality, whether we are mere men or immortals, is based on our ontological state and wisdom, with the relative state being that of mortals and the Absolute state that of immortals? This is what is being discussed in what I quoted earlier:

 

As Fabrizio Pregadio comments, the alchemist rises through the hierarchy of the constituents of being by accelerating the rhythms of Nature. Bringing time to its end, or tracing it back to its beginning, is equivalent. In either case time is transcended, and the alchemist gains access to timelessness, or “immortality.” (Pregadio, 2 Doctrines) One becomes what Zhuangzi calls a zhenren 真人 or True Man.

Also did you miss where I stated the immortal brings transcendence within immanence, being within the temporal world while having his inner nature being rooted in timelessness? That isn't an escape to some other world. Here's Julius Evola discussing this point from his "Path of the Cinnabar":

 

"It is only in my later commentary on the text that I clearly emphasized how Taoism is defined by a kind of 'immanent transcendence': by the direct presence of non-being (in its positive sense of supra-ontological essentiality) within being, of the infinitely remote (the 'Sky') in what is close, and of what is beyond nature within nature. Only then did I clearly point out that Taoism is equally remote from both pantheistic immanence and transcendence, as it is founded on the direct sort of experience which underlies the specific existential structure of primeval humanity."

 

Similarly from Hans-Georg Moeller's "Daoism Explained" (brackets mine):

 

The timeless Daoist sage does not take anything away from the authenticity of the temporal. Unlike [most] Western conceptions of eternity, which tend to devaluate all that is merely temporal, the Daoist concept of timelessness affirms the realm of temporality and of passing time. Just as the sage affirms both life and death, the sage also affirms the course of time. While he is without presence, without beginning and end, he still always "goes in accord with the course of things." He is the nonpresence that always accompanies the sequence of presence. While the Daoist sage is timeless within time, he is well aware of change. 

 

Eva Wong from her "Harmonizing Yin and Yang":

 

Taoist alchemy is also concerned with spiritual transformation. This transformation involves changing the body and mind from a mundane state to one that mirrors the timeless and permanent reality of the Tao. 

 

 

Here is a PDF analysis of you clinging to the Unchanging claim of Liezi.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0ahUKEwjs4uC1_N7UAhVqrFQKHb3tDx0QFghCMAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ideals.illinois.edu%2Fbitstream%2Fhandle%2F2142%2F31983%2FChen_Yin-Ching.pdf%3Fsequence%3D1&usg=AFQjCNHYlDXPVzbSxfxi4Pa0Tg_DLYx1iA&cad=rja

 

Do a word search of "unchang" - to get all references to Liezi meaning of Unchanging.

 

Notice the last reference.

 

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This dual concept of "non-action " is well illustrated in the following water parable:

If water is damned and not allowed to flow it will be stagnant and unclear.

 

Stagnant water is unclear because it does not flow.

 

Quote

Clear water flows although it may seem still.

 

Now that explanation of Unchanging , p. 193-4 - actually is confirmed by science.

 

As I detail in my free pdf - water is split by the piezoelectric collagen - so that it emits shen and at the same time the protons of the water create qi energy and the shen goes into imaginary mass.

 

So the protons are "non-locally decoupled" as imaginary mass that is superconducting - as noncommutative phase.

 

So I am referencing a 2012 Ph.D. thesis by Yin-Cheng Chen on Liezi as the focus of topic.

 

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-90-481-2927-0_19

 

2014 academic analysis: Earliest source of the Liezi is 400 C.E. - mixed in Confucian errors, etc.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

So then you refer to Fabrizio Pregadio making "comments."

 

So I search Fabrizio Pregadio timelessness.

 

Let's take a look.

 

The book of Nine Elixirs - pdf

 

word search time

 

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"a timeless condition of prima materia, and to be representation of the "essence" (jing) from the Dao to generate the cosmos."

 

So this fits what I am stating - the shen is turned around to generate yuan qi that is also called jingqi - or reverse time energy.

 

So the "timeless" condition represents the jing to generate the cosmos.

 

Does that sound like UNCHANGING to you? No - it is "generating" the cosmos yet is timeless.

 

Solve that riddle. I have.

 

The Yuan Shen is "non-movement' with "doing" at the same time - - because it is creating "yuan jing" as reverse time or reverse entropy energy from qi.

 

Moving on.

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_of_the_week_57_ctq.html

 

So here Pregadio translates a title as "The Timeless Instant between Beginning and Ending."

 

So you claim that the Taoist master says their is no beginning and no ending.

 

I agree with you but I disagree that means there is some static timelessness that is immortal.

 

Let's see what this title means.

 

It states...

 

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Yang....ordinances in accord with the time.

 

So as I have stated - the "timeless instant" is when the shen is turned around and this is the instant that at the same time has reverse time - as noncommutative phase - the Yuan Qi that creates Yuan Jing as reverse entropy.

 

Nothing in that translation about timelessness - only a "timeless instant" - which is a paradox right? An "instant" is still time - so again how do you solve that paradox.

I have - just as the qigong master has explained to me - the light is turned around as a laser - it is held onto and the Yuan Qi does the healing on its own as reverse time energy.

 

So then we have Pregadio with his Daoist Immortal Body paper.

 

If you go to the academia link it does not load - is had not be uploaded.

 

So click on the cache link on google - and presto you can read it. haha.

 

Now we word search time and see what we find.

 

Hmm:

 

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As is common in alchemy, backward and forward processes, or regressive and progressive sequences, occur at the same time: while one goes backward along the stages of cosmogony, the inner embryo grows.

 

oh weird - that's exactly what I have been stating.

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:D7KRdmw5vY0J:www.academia.edu/30962756/Which_is_the_Daoist_Immortal_Body+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

I think I'll add that to my blog where I have numerous other quotes of similar stature - yet you have refused to engage with.

 

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In either case time is transcended, and the alchemist gains access to timelessness, or “immortality.” (

 

So that's your Pregadio quote but let's get some clarification on that claim.

 

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As the practitioner “returns to Emptiness,” his immortal self—a perfected replica of his person—learns how to roam throughout spacelessness and timelessness.

 

So just as I have stated - it is the Yang Shen that enters into the Yuan qi - and "roams it" - so time is only transcended in the sense that you have forward and backward processes at the same time - the Shen goes to zero and then the nonlocal entanglement is reverse time - it can go into the future or change the past.

 

But as I have stated - the Yang Shen in the end vaporizes back into the Yuan Qi - and it is the Yuan Qi that decides where the Yang Shen roams.

 

 

[Kongming]

 What you've posted is about wuwei, not the unchanging origin of the cosmos (remember the cosmos is space-time, thus what "births it", namely the Dao giving birth to the One, etc.. is necessarily beyond time.) These are two different topics.

 

12 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

So then you refer to Fabrizio Pregadio making "comments."

 

The references you are quoting from Pregadio is not the same one I am referencing, which is a clear reference to the timeless immortality goal of neidan via reversing the cosmogonic process. Again two different topics. Another note from Pregadio from "Transforming the Void: Embryological Discourse and Reproductive Imagery in East Asian Religions":

 

 

"From this perspective, the relative domain, define by space and time, does not even exist." This is the attainment of the Absolute perspective, the becoming a "zhenren" or "xian" I've been mentioning and is the perspective of one rooted in that which is timeless and transcendent while still being in the world as also noted (the metaphor of the lotus flower, with its roots in the water/mud, i.e. the physical world of space-time but with its flower above the water, i.e. transcendence, is referencing the same thing.)

Edited June 27, 2017 by Kongming

[voidisyinyang]

To go "beyond time" means to enter "noncommutative phase" as reverse time.

 

You claim there is some static timelessness but Pregadio clearly states in the quote you posted that

 

"The regressive process of inversion, therefore is also a progressive process of creation...which is the Elixir itself. Not only do the two processes run parallel to one another but they  are also ultimately equivalent."

Transforming the Void: Embryological Discourse and Reproductive Imagery in East Asian Religions":

 

So I completely agree with Pregadio - this is the secret of noncommutative phase - it is being in two places at the same time as reverse time processes.

 

Thanks for confirming my view.

 

No "static timelessness" at all.

 

Do you see what I am saying yet?

 

Yuan Shen is time zero as classical physics.

 

Noncommutative phase is the future and past at the same time - reversed to create negative entropy as yuan qi formless awareness, creating yuan jing.

 

Notice again that "spaceless place and timeless instant" are paradoxes.

 

I am explaining the paradox for you.

 

Light does not experience time nor space yet it has hidden momentum as reverse entropy energy.

 

This is why Yuan Shen has doing with no movement.

 

Understand yet?

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

not the unchanging origin of the cosmos

 

As I stated Wu Chi as a symbol was created in the Song Dynasty.

 

There is no "unchanging origin of the cosmos"

 

That is your delusion.

 

The Yuan Qi is formless, united yin-yang, undivided, at rest because the Yuan Shen is turned around back on itself. There is no rest mass to light - therefore the spacetime creates yuan jing from the yuan qi that is the reverse time phonon energy as noncommutative phase - being in two places at the same time, but the places are complementary opposites and therefore always create energy-mass.

 

Noncommutative phase is the 5th dimension of reality - it is "time-like" as phase. It is not in space - it is not static.

 

You can listen to it but not see it.

 

The process of change is the unchanging origin of the cosmos - not some static space that is timeless. That is a Western concept from Plato, etc.

Edited June 27, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

Notice how I willingly engage with your quotes and references and yet you refuse to engage will all the quotes and references I posted?

 

What does that tell you?

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

Now I am reading the actual paper you quoted.

 

You referenced the book but not the actual paper.

 

http://www.academia.edu/8144785/Creation_and_Its_Inversion_Cosmos_Human_Being_and_Elixir_in_the_Cantong_qi_The_Seal_of_the_Unity_of_the_Three_

 

And so what do we find:
 

Quote

 

Qian is the active (“creative”) principle, the essence, Yang, and Heav-en. Kun is the passive (“receptive”) principle, the substance, Yin, and Earth. As they join to give birth to the cosmos

The cosmos and all entities and phenomena within it are generated through the continuous enactment of this process.

 

 

So the image he posts of the original Tai Chi - there is actually an earlier version but oh well - he says that the Heaven and Earth cross the Hub that is the Emptiness - so yang and yin cross the Emptiness.

 

That is the noncommutative phase. The Emptiness inherently relies on yang and yin as the eternal process of creation as complementary opposites - it is continuous.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[Kongming]

I can't waste time going in circles with you or addressing all the extraneous material you post. That said its really quite simple:

 

1) Laozi, Huainanzi, Liezi, and other texts, as well as most academics I've read, describe the Dao as the unchanging origin of the cosmos
2) The cosmos is space and time, thus that which produces space-time cannot be space-time, hence it is timeless

3) Change is the result of yin-yang interacting, yet as per DDJ 42 the Dao precedes or gives birth to yin-yang and thus is prior to change

 

For further confirmation, read this from the Dao Companion to Daoist Philosophy:

 

Perhaps the most influential typological approach was that of FENG Youlan 馮友蘭 (1895–1990), whose “A Preliminary Draft of New Essays on the History of Chinese Philosophy” 中國哲學史新編試稿 distinguishes between several senses of the term "Dao": (1) the origin of the myriad phenomena (e.g., chapter 4, “as if it were the founding ancestor of the myriad things,” si wanwu zhi zong 似萬物之宗), (2) the origin of all transformations (e.g., chapter 42, “Dao gives birth to one, one to two, two to three, three to the myriad things,” Dao sheng yi, yi sheng er, er sheng san, san sheng wanwu 道生一,一生二,二生三,三生萬物), and (3) the imperceptible transcendent, that is, the one thing that does not transform (e.g., chapter 25, “it proceeds in a cycle without ever tiring,” zhou xing er budai 周行而不殆, see Hu 2006: 64–65). Of the first sense, in this early work from the 1960s, Feng writes that phenomena must be produced according to a “basic principle” (yuan li 原理), and that is Dao. Here, the examples Feng chooses tend to relate Dao to the phenomenal world in a temporal or developmental sequence (e.g., chapter 25, “Something came forth chaotic and complete, born prior to Heaven and Earth,” you wu huncheng, xian tiandi sheng 有物混成, 先天地生). Yet other sections of the Laozi promote a second, more abstract sense of Dao that is distinct from both the concrete world of phenomena and the world (presence, you 有) that gives birth to them in the manner of the first sense. Instead, this second sense of the term is the realm of absence (wu 無) that gives birth to that world (e.g., chapter 40, “the myriad things in the universe are born from presence, and presence is born from absence” tianxia wanwu sheng yu you, you sheng yu wu 天下萬物生 於有, 有生於無) and therefore lies outside time and space. Finally, the last sense defines Dao through negation, expressing its meaning not by its relationship to the phenomenal world, but rather by denying basic contrasts, such as between this (ci 此) and that (bi 彼). Indeed, the first two senses of the Dao—as an originating principle for the creation of the phenomenal world and as an entity outside of both principle and phenomena and so responsible for their creation—are both, in this third view, things that can be named and therefore are not Dao (cf. chapter 32, Dao chang wu ming 道常無名, Hu 2006: 70–71).

 

This is my perspective and I believe it is correct, if you feel otherwise we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, Kongming said:

I can't waste time going in circles with you or addressing all the extraneous material you post. That said its really quite simple:

 

1) Laozi, Huainanzi, Liezi, and other texts, as well as most academics I've read, describe the Dao as the unchanging origin of the cosmos
2) The cosmos is space and time, thus that which produces space-time cannot be space-time, hence it is timeless

3) Change is the result of yin-yang interacting, yet as per DDJ 42 the Dao precedes or gives birth to yin-yang and thus is prior to change

 

For further confirmation, read this from the Dao Companion to Daoist Philosophy:

 

Perhaps the most influential typological approach was that of FENG Youlan 馮友蘭 (1895–1990), whose “A Preliminary Draft of New Essays on the History of Chinese Philosophy” 中國哲學史新編試稿 distinguishes between several senses of the term "Dao": (1) the origin of the myriad phenomena (e.g., chapter 4, “as if it were the founding ancestor of the myriad things,” si wanwu zhi zong 似萬物之宗), (2) the origin of all transformations (e.g., chapter 42, “Dao gives birth to one, one to two, two to three, three to the myriad things,” Dao sheng yi, yi sheng er, er sheng san, san sheng wanwu 道生一,一生二,二生三,三生萬物), and (3) the imperceptible transcendent, that is, the one thing that does not transform (e.g., chapter 25, “it proceeds in a cycle without ever tiring,” zhou xing er budai 周行而不殆, see Hu 2006: 64–65). Of the first sense, in this early work from the 1960s, Feng writes that phenomena must be produced according to a “basic principle” (yuan li 原理), and that is Dao. Here, the examples Feng chooses tend to relate Dao to the phenomenal world in a temporal or developmental sequence (e.g., chapter 25, “Something came forth chaotic and complete, born prior to Heaven and Earth,” you wu huncheng, xian tiandi sheng 有物混成, 先天地生). Yet other sections of the Laozi promote a second, more abstract sense of Dao that is distinct from both the concrete world of phenomena and the world (presence, you 有) that gives birth to them in the manner of the first sense. Instead, this second sense of the term is the realm of absence (wu 無) that gives birth to that world (e.g., chapter 40, “the myriad things in the universe are born from presence, and presence is born from absence” tianxia wanwu sheng yu you, you sheng yu wu 天下萬物生 於有, 有生於無) and therefore lies outside time and space. Finally, the last sense defines Dao through negation, expressing its meaning not by its relationship to the phenomenal world, but rather by denying basic contrasts, such as between this (ci 此) and that (bi 彼). Indeed, the first two senses of the Dao—as an originating principle for the creation of the phenomenal world and as an entity outside of both principle and phenomena and so responsible for their creation—are both, in this third view, things that can be named and therefore are not Dao (cf. chapter 32, Dao chang wu ming 道常無名, Hu 2006: 70–71).

 

This is my perspective and I believe it is correct, if you feel otherwise we will have to agree to disagree.

 

 

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1) Laozi, Huainanzi, Liezi, and other texts, as well as most academics I've read, describe the Dao as the unchanging origin of the cosmos

 

No references, no quotes. I already detailed how you misunderstand Liezi and it's a latter Confucian text anyway.
 

Quote

 

2) The cosmos is space and time, thus that which produces space-time cannot be space-time, hence it is timeless

 

 

Already disproven by science - noncommutative phase as quantum entanglement creates spacetime. This is called EPR=ER. Taoism corroborates this truth.

 

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3) Change is the result of yin-yang interacting, yet as per DDJ 42 the Dao precedes or gives birth to yin-yang and thus is prior to change

 

Nope - the  Yuan Qi is the Dao as "undivided yin-yang" or the Tai Chi "at rest" - this is because it is noncommutative phase.

 

You don't understand what complementary opposites mean - as you project your Western logic onto Taoism.

 

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“it proceeds in a cycle without ever tiring,

 

This means the Dao is the process of change that does not change.

 

Understand yet?

 

You have yet to engage with or directly answer any of the links or quotes I have provided with.

 

There is no "circle" here - there is you ignoring the information I have provided - which is frankly rude at best, but cowardly at worst.

 

There is only me disproven you're pitiful claims by directly quoting them and explaining why they are wrong - by quoting from the same sources your provide.

 

Wanna try some more?

 

Keep ignoring what I Have posted in your thread - and keep trying to post weak evidence.

 

I fully understand "your" perspective.

 

Can you at all even acknowledge what my perspective is?

 

Can you even claim to understand what noncommutative phase is based on music theory?

 

I have provided LOTS of quotes.

 

Can you quote them and then directly reply to the quotes to try to refute them?

 

Nope - you have not at all.

 

I'll give you another chance to study and then learn from the links and quotes I have provided:

 

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"If then all things are One, what room is there for speech? On the other hand, since I can say the word 'one' how can speech not exist? If it does exist, we have One and speech -- two; and two and one -- three(14) from which point onwards even the best mathematicians will fail to reach (the ultimate); how much more then should ordinary people fail?">"

- Chuang Tzu, 300 BCE

 

 

Now according to Plato mathematicians can indeed reach the ultimate - based on his irrational magnitude alogon mysticism.

 

But if you really study mathematics - they admit this is not true. math professor Borzacchini states the cover up by Plato of real music theory is "really astonishing" and "shocking."

 

Now for Westernized thinkers they see, 1, 2, 3 and infinity and think - so what - it's just counting.

 

But for mathematicians who know some music theory - this is not true - there is more to it.

 

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a “universal scaling system”, ... this discrete scaling manifests itself in acoustic systems, as is well known in western classical music, where the two scalings correspond, respectively, to passing to the octave (frequency ratio of 2) and transposition (the perfect fifth is the frequency ratio 3/2), with the approximate value log(3)/ log(2) ∼ 19/12 responsible for the difference between the “circulating temperament” of the Well Tempered
Clavier and the “equal temperament” of XIX century music. It is precisely the irrationality of log(3)/ log(2) which is responsible for the noncommutative [complementary opposites as yin/yang] nature of the quotient corresponding to the three places {2, 3,∞}. -

 

So suddenly those few numbers mean something different.

Quote

 

So light as a photon is a point but as a wave it is nonlocal - but this means it is in 2 places at the same time - as the 5th dimension that is noncommutative.

People think that doesn't make sense - how can it be in two places at the same time? Actually basic music theory explains this.

So for example the Perfect Fifth is C to F as subharmonic 2/3 while the Perfect Fifth is C to G overtone harmonic as 3/2.

So C = 2 while F=3=G at the same time. That is noncommutative phase. It is also called "Fourier Uncertainty" or "time-frequency uncertainty" - and that is the true foundation of reality.

 

 

So that is not monism - it means that the complementary opposites are at the same time - that is called noncommutative phase.

 

Do you see the difference yet?

 

Not yet? O.k. I'll give some Taoist quotes now.

 

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According to him [Liu Huayang], the prenatal jing and the prenatal shen were identical....In the moment of chaos [prenatal shen], there is movement in peace [prenatal jing].

 

So what the means is that qi is shen under jing at the same time - noncommutative phase.

 

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Zhang, Guangbao states indeed - this "jingqi" is the primordial cosmic yuanqi - from this process of the shen being contained internally along with the jing to bring out the qi energy.

 

https://www.scribd.com/document/225213533/Taoism

 

So I am referring to the essay in that book by Zhang Guangbao.

 

Here's another one:

 

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When t’ai chi is at rest, yang and yin are united;
when t’ai chi is in motion, the two opposing forces separate. Herein
lies the secret of immortality.

 

The Magus of Java: Teachings of an Authentic Taoist Immortal (on John Chang).

 

So notice it says - that is the "secret."

 

Secret is in you did not pick this up.

 

I hope now you are picking it up. This is all from my blog.

 

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"The whole process is ruled by Spirit....It's movement in 'non-doing' is called Original Spirit." Wang Mu, Foundations of Internal Alchemy.

 

 

 

 

 

So what that means is when the light is turned around then time goes to zero and the yuan qi is created from virtual photons as the hidden momentum of light from relativity - the inherent noncommutative phase of spacetime as the 5th dimension.

 

That is the "Movement in non-doing" of yuan shen - the creation of yuan qi.

 

Quote

 

In this more advanced practice, both agonist and antagonist contract simultaneously - the first isotonically in shortening, and the latter eccentrically in lengthening, in effect they work against each other and create a dynamic tension between the paired muscles.

internal oppositional exertion....is more than anything a mental shift in awareness....such omni-directional mutually cancelling efforts engage the connective tissue web continually, they increase the elastic strength of the frame even while an external observer discerns no apparent movement.

 

 

 Citing the book

Masters of Perception: Sensory-Motor Integration in the Internal Martial Arts.

by Jan Dipersloot

Vol. 3, 2013.

 

So that again is the secret of noncommutative phase.

 

O.K. Now I'll open up my pdf and quote from that. too bad I can't cut and paste it!

 

Quote

When Chaos was dark, the yin-yang air was undivided; and....Hence, motion and rest have no end, and the Yin-yang have no beginning.

 

 

So you quote the Tao Te Ching taking about before Heaven and Earth was created - but try to realize that the Wu Chi symbol was created in the Song dynasty when the elite were claiming Confucianism and Taoism and Buddhism were all the same. haha.

 

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The primal qi (li yuanqi) ....formless

 

So that quote is stating that Taoist masters embody the Emptiness as the Yuan qi that is formless awareness.

 

How do they do that? By putting shen below the jing - for fire under the water to create steam.

 

Now a different translation of the Tao Te Ching states, "Indeterminate yet the Great Ultimate" or "wuji is taichi and taichi is also wuji."

 

O.K.

 

here is the final quote from Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality:

 

"Since is it the undivided yin-yang it is called the One Vitality."

 

If you want the other sources then you gotta open up my pdf for the hypertext links.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

Edited June 28, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

So I was being nice and said - if you "want" the other sources - open the pdf link and click on the links.

 

I'll do that for you since obviously you choose the path of "willful ignorance" hoping to hide your head in the sand like an ostrich.

 

So here we go: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwjPteGkifzSAhVEeCYKHd-YAg4QFgg4MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fygmh.skku.edu%2F_custom%2Fskk%2F_common%2Fboard%2Fdownload.jsp%3Fattach_no%3D2807&usg=AFQjCNH9hXoVg_Xmt0Qx17ZDM3mxOYImKg&sig2=0m2H7OB4TQ10IaHjK_RMXw&bvm=bv.150729734,d.eWE&cad=rja

 

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Now a different translation of the Tao Te Ching states, "Indeterminate yet the Great Ultimate" or "wuji is taichi and taichi is also wuji."

 

that's a pdf link.

 

The article being quoted is this:

 

Zhu Xi's Metaphysical System and the Role of the Taji (Great Ultimate) by Kim Han-Sang, 2013.

 

Quote

Although Zhu Xi learned of the Taiji as 'the principle of origin of the universe' from his teacher Li Tong as early as in 1161....It was under the influence of Zhang Shi that Zhu Xi came to consider Taiji in connection with Xing....Taiji is not seen as some primordial undivided material stuff or matter, but clearly is stated as being the metaphysical Dao, as well as containing all the principles of movement and quiescence, and of yin and yang....

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

Taiji is just the li of all things in the universe....Even before heaven and earth have yet to exist, there must first be this li.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

Behind the movement and quiescence is the principle of movement and quiescence and this is what is known as Taiji.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

However, the reason why the [Diagram of the Great Ultimate] talks of "Indeterminate yet the Great Ultimate" and says that "Taiji is originally wuji" is not because wuji gave birth to Taiji after wuji, or because wuji existed before Taiji.

 

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

Taiji is the metaphysical Dao ....Taiji is that metaphysical entity that is one with the world of change and regulates it while accompanying it, without undergoing change itself.

 

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

wuji serves to define the character of Taiji as without form, but characterized by the presence of principle.

 

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

Taiji as wuji is not a primordial material substance - it is also different from the Buddhist notion of emptiness. It is the ground-providing principle behind phenomena that allow transformations in the phenomenal world to occur.

 

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

In the Theory on Yuan Qi of Taiji: "Taiji refers to the state of integrated yuan qi before the separation of heaven and earth. It is the great beginning and the great one." The state before the "separation of heaven and earth" is "wuji" which is mixed and blurry, when qi is generated and distributed to make "yuan qi integrated as one," namely "taiji."

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=G8jVCgAAQBAJ&pg=PT80&lpg=PT80&dq="yuan+qi"+wuji&source=bl&ots=Ylz3Q0lTPS&sig=VekXEzvxaMOlhnhEPZfXa3WUe2Q&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA5u_45d_UAhUjwFQKHZ-NA8UQ6AEIPzAF#v=onepage&q="yuan qi" wuji&f=false

 

The Mind Inside Tai Chi: Sustaining a Joyful Heart

By Henry Zhuang

 

2015, YMAA

[Kongming]

Well returning to the topic matter, one other difference between Daoism and Buddhism is on whether there is an enduring subject of any sort across moments of time or not. Buddhism famously declares that there is no connecting subject between each succession of moments and the belief in such is illusory. As far as I am aware Daoism, aside from the possibility of individual Daoists heavily influenced by Buddhist thought later in history, would be more in agreement with the following perspective of Kashmir Shaivism vis a vis Buddhism:

 

Quote

However, Monistic Kashmiri Shaivism seems to make a stunning comeback with its analysis of memory. Buddhists and Shaivas agree that memory has access to the past by means of impressions from original experiences (78). The Shaivas also agree with the Buddhists that impressions can account for the similarity between a memory with the original experience (124). For example, the full process of rememberence can be explained like this: first one sees a pot. The perception of the pot is an impression the now exists as a memory. Later on, one sees a pot. Finally one immediately thinks "ah, this (the present pot) is that (the memory of the first experience of the pot)." One main aspect of the remembering of the (past-experienced) pot is the similarity that exists between the present pot and the memory of the earlier pot. There is another crucial aspect of the process of remembering that the Shaivite point out:

• ...there is more in memory to be explained than its mere similarity to an orignal experience of an object. If memory were only a sort of copy of the original experience of an object, it [remembering of the earlier pot] would still have the expression typified as "this." "This" is an ascription having the signficance of something that is present to perception. The memory of the object however has the typical expression "that." That is, it is qualified as previously experienced. Now, according to the Saivas, such a qualification requires that there is some sort of awareness in memory of the previous experience itself as well as its [the previous experience’s] object. (124)

The remembrance of an object is coupled with a rememberance of the experience, the previous cognition of the object. In other words, when someone remembers an object, the object alone is not just brought to mind, but gets tagged with the "trait" as "having been experienced in the past." This aspect of memory relates to an awareness of awareness of an object. One would usually call such "self-awareness," but this is, of course, a designation that Buddhism considers false. Buddhism does hold that each particular cognition of an object has its own temporary cognition of cognition, or "self"-luminosity of each experience, with the "self" here meaning only that episode of perceptual experience or memory, not an enduring self. In other words, Buddhism holds that one fleeting episode of awareness can include awareness of awareness.

 

However, the Shaivas argue that this Buddhist theory does not account for the cross-episodic awareness aspect of memory (124). As described earlier, the experience of remembering includes an awareness of not only of similarity between the present object and a previously experienced object. Remembering also includes an awareness of having a previously experienced the object. "This is that," the object designated as that is qualifed as being experienced before.

 

Now how could this present temporary fleeting unique episode of remembering awareness have an awareness of previously experiencing something? If the previous episode is a unique particular awareness, and the remembering episode is a unique particular awareness, then the remembering episode could not be qualified as previously experiencing anything. Each cognitive episode, according to Buddhism, is distinct and unique, and no number of episodes have any authentic connection or unity amongst them. If this were true, how could one episode, all by itself, have the ability recall or connect itself to a previous episode in memory? Yet one knows and Buddhism does not deny that such occurs.

 

Thus The Shaiva asserts that the Buddhist theory of cognition cannot account for previous awarenesses of awareness. The Shaiva response is finally that there must be a continuing enduring self that is involved with awareness of previous awarnesses (125). An enduring self can of course be aware of its own, united, collection of awarenesses across time. 

 

This is further confirmed by another difference between some sects of Daoism and Buddhism, namely Daoism's emphasis on ancestral connections and even the ability to liberate some of your ancestors via your own liberation (as well as inheriting the negative "karma" or guilt of your ancestors, etc.) From Robinet's book "Taoist Mediation":

 

Thus it is said that an adept's faults are wiped away; that all the germs of death in him have disappeared; that sometime after his purification in the fire within the Southern Palace, he will be reborn within an immortal embryo; and that after his name is inscribed in the heavens, he will be called to assume divine functions and converse with the deities. As especially noted in the Great Purity texts, he will rescue his parents and all of his ancestors up to the seventh generation.

 

Death is not a separation. The merits of the dead either acquired during their lifetime or gained after their passing can fall upon their descendants. Thus T'ao Hung-ching explains that one may be moved to practice the "liberation from the corpse" because of the merits of one's ancestors (he stipulates, however, that purification is not complete in this case and a leg must be donated as an offering to the ancestors). The Pa-su ching, one of the basic works of the Mao-shan movement, says that: "the kuei (souls of the dead who are in the hells) can practice achieving immortality (hsien) like human beings; they can practice in the direction of the Tao and, after seven generations (of ancestors) are established in virtue, their merits fall upon their descendants which leads them toward the divine (shen) and immortal condition."

 

It is therefore the case that salvation is not an individual matter. The adept, after all, cannot be saved by himself. It is a matter that involves the adept together with his family down through seven or nine generations. We must note, however, that this familial solidarity primarily applies to a single individual and his ancestors. The link with one's descendants appears to be less strong and the texts only rarely mention such a connection. On the other hand, the adept's task seems to be concerned simultaneously with his own and his ancestors' salvation. And this seems to imply that he could also expect that his salvation, or the aggravation of his sufferings, will be effected by his descendants. This emphasis on a linkage with preceding rather than posterior generations seems to be particularly Chinese. As an interaction oriented to past generations, this appears to be a characteristic clearly distinguished from the concept of karma since, in Buddhism, the believer by his own faults does not aggravate the sufferings undergone by his ancestors in the other-world.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Kongming

[voidisyinyang]

41 minutes ago, Kongming said:

Well returning to the topic matter, one other difference between Daoism and Buddhism is on whether there is an enduring subject of any sort across moments of time or not. Buddhism famously declares that there is no connecting subject between each succession of moments and the belief in such is illusory. As far as I am aware Daoism, aside from the possibility of individual Daoists heavily influenced by Buddhist thought later in history, would be more in agreement with the following perspective of Kashmir Shaivism vis a vis Buddhism:

 

 

This is further confirmed by another difference between some sects of Daoism and Buddhism, namely Daoism's emphasis on ancestral connections and even the ability to liberate some of your ancestors via your own liberation (as well as inheriting the negative "karma" or guilt of your ancestors, etc.) From Robinet's book "Taoist Mediation":

 

Thus it is said that an adept's faults are wiped away; that all the germs of death in him have disappeared; that sometime after his purification in the fire within the Southern Palace, he will be reborn within an immortal embryo; and that after his name is inscribed in the heavens, he will be called to assume divine functions and converse with the deities. As especially noted in the Great Purity texts, he will rescue his parents and all of his ancestors up to the seventh generation.

 

Death is not a separation. The merits of the dead either acquired during their lifetime or gained after their passing can fall upon their descendants. Thus T'ao Hung-ching explains that one may be moved to practice the "liberation from the corpse" because of the merits of one's ancestors (he stipulates, however, that purification is not complete in this case and a leg must be donated as an offering to the ancestors). The Pa-su ching, one of the basic works of the Mao-shan movement, says that: "the kuei (souls of the dead who are in the hells) can practice achieving immortality (hsien) like human beings; they can practice in the direction of the Tao and, after seven generations (of ancestors) are established in virtue, their merits fall upon their descendants which leads them toward the divine (shen) and immortal condition."

 

It is therefore the case that salvation is not an individual matter. The adept, after all, cannot be saved by himself. It is a matter that involves the adept together with his family down through seven or nine generations. We must note, however, that this familial solidarity primarily applies to a single individual and his ancestors. The link with one's descendants appears to be less strong and the texts only rarely mention such a connection. On the other hand, the adept's task seems to be concerned simultaneously with his own and his ancestors' salvation. And this seems to imply that he could also expect that his salvation, or the aggravation of his sufferings, will be effected by his descendants. This emphasis on a linkage with preceding rather than posterior generations seems to be particularly Chinese. As an interaction oriented to past generations, this appears to be a characteristic clearly distinguished from the concept of karma since, in Buddhism, the believer by his own faults does not aggravate the sufferings undergone by his ancestors in the other-world.

 

These "intellectual" debates are tawdry.

 

For example - Yogananda makes reference to the "everfresh, evernew."

 

There is a book called "The Eternal Return of the Same" - that discusses this issue.

 

For example if time is eternal then every individual experience will eventually be repeated exactly - and so there is no real individuality.

 

But this whole discussion is based on a misunderstanding of "noncommutative phase."

 

Yogananda understood the truth of "noncommutative phase" because Kriya Yoga is based on the "three gunas" - the oldest philosophy of India.

 

As science has emphasized - Fourier Uncertainty or "time-frequency uncertainty" is the inherent limitation of science.

 

This is because of "noncommutative phase" - so that means that quantum entanglement is an eternal process of change that is never the same exactly again.

 

It is "ever fresh, "ever new" - so there is impersonal awareness yet it is always creating new experiences that are slightly different.

 

As I said - the qigong master can change the past at the "point of origination" and that memory is stored holographically based on the emotional energy.

 

So with our eyes open - it's like a camera - we holographically imprint the external world, internally, as a micro quantum black hole that stores the memory.

 

In my free pdf - I cite the science research on "trans-metamorphic memory."

 

In other words if you cut off the head of a planarian worm - and the head regrows - the worm still remembers its actions from before its head was cut off.

 

The memory is stored - not physically in the body - but holographically in time-frequency.

 

Karl Pribram tried to explain this holographic mind but, as Eddie Oshins points out - Pribram fundamentally still misunderstood "noncommutative phase."

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjgls_b4uDUAhUmjlQKHeThAOEQFggmMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.quantumpsychology.com%2Fpdf%2FModels-and-Muddles-Part-I.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFGuQp-xjAKntaA_zQD8Vzj_I4nJw

 

So the "three gunas" is the same as "noncommutative phase" due to infinite time-frequency as complementary opposites from music theory.

 

Now maybe Shaivism in Kashmir understood the secret of the "three gunas" from Spanda - I can look into it.

 

But essentially what this means is when light goes into a black hole - the information is not lost, the energy dissipates due to time-frequency uncertainty - and when it does so it is still quantum entangled, nonlocally - so it is in two places at the same time.

 

So memory is inherently non-local because it is stored in the 5th dimension as phase - not in a spatial dimension of the mind or body.

 

Quote

10.15 Although the sattvic-guna is luminously pure it can still bind the host-body to states of temporary fixation on fleeting happiness.

 

https://unbornmind.com/2016/04/12/the-three-gunas/

 

So what this means again, is the difference between "individual consciousness" or spirit and "universal consciousness" or universal spirit.

 

So in the Tai Chi - the center sine wave line is the consciousness while the circle is the universal consciousness as the Emptiness.

 

So what happens then is the individual consciousness is the light that is "turned around" back into it self.

 

Because of time-frequency uncertainty, as the inherent complementary opposites of reality - this means that as 2 is the double of 1 then 3 is F as subharmonic and 3 is G as overtone harmonic at the same time.

 

That is the secret of complementary opposites.

 

So if the light is not turned around then you have "astral travel" as the ego - for example Master Nan, Huai-chin states, even if you can go out into the solar system as an immortal - you will live a very long time but there will still be some cosmic cataclysm that will destroy your immortality.

 

In other words - only the formless awareness of the Universe is truly immortal - no individual spirit.

 

So memory - when it is re-experienced - it is the formless awareness that experiences it.

 

So it is the Yuan Qi that stores the memory - as the Emptiness - and so when the light as spirit is "turned around" - then the time goes to zero (zero time = no memory) but just like a magnetic disk - the memory is stored by superconducting proton-proton or yuan qi energy.

 

So even though the individual spirit goes to zero as time, the memory is stored in noncommutative phase.

 

This is why Ramana Maharshi says that the Self is achieved through the Sattvic mind of light but the Self is not light, rather the Self is the "ether" of the light.

 

Another example is a book I review on Amazon.com - about dreams and repression of trauma.

 

Basically it is assumed we have to have REM sleep for our mind to store new experiences as memories that our integrated with our old experiences.

 

But for people with deep trauma then they don't remember their REM sleep. And the question is - should they be able to remember their dreams to process their deep trauma? Or is it better to just leave the trauma as repressed unconsciousness?

 

For example ever night, unless we are qigong master Haideng who did not sleep for 60 years - we go into deep unconsciousness with no memory of spacetime or energy.

 

Yet when we wake up we feel bliss and realize we had to have that deep unconscious experience.

 

So the question is - who is it that experiences memory?

 

As i have stated - memory is stored nonlocally in the impersonal formless awareness.

 

So it is not necessary for the individual to remember it. But the more an individual can harmonize their own memories - consciously - to consciously sublimate their subconscious holographic energy experiences - the more the individual can merge with the formless awareness information and access it and even change it - delete it or rewrite it. https://www.amazon.com/Enchanted-World-Sleep-Prof-Peretz/product-reviews/0300066023/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_ttl?ie=UTF8&reviewerType=all_reviews&sortBy=recent#R3TO6PDXYW146Y

 

 

Quote

 

5.0 out of 5 starsParadoxical Sleep and Parasomnia

Bydrew hempelon August 2, 2006

Format: Hardcover

This is a riveting read! What I found fascinating is that to determine if other animals sleep we look for the strong amplitude spikes of slower frequency wavelengths. Animals that need to sleep on the move or always be alert have high rates of "paradoxical sleep" (light REM sleep) while animals assured of protection (like bears) have deep dreamless sleep, with strong amplitude spikes.

The author's argument that REM was monophasic -- arising from the cerebellum connections as an evolutionary transition to more deep, restorative sleep, is fascinating. So infants have more REM sleep because they need to be able to wake up more often for fast growth and since they have little protection, the same for fish, birds. Until the book it's been thought that REM was necessary for long-term memory storage, which appears to be more of a combination of REM with other factors while the "monophasic" use of REM is primary. The author presents that amazing evidence of a patient who had next to no REM and had amazing long term memory capabilites.

The author's discovery that repression of traumatic memories was the key to restful sleep is amazing since it goes totally against Freudian psychology! So the practice is to never discuss the trauma! On the otherhand it presents an argument for the legitmacy of secrecy regarding experiences that are classified in "parasomnia" realms. The "silent channel" tactic to enable restful sleep during war is also fascinating.

How genetic factors tie into nacrolepsy and how the hypothalamus is tied to somnambulism is also very intriguing. That somnambulism usually disappears after puberty and that somanambulism is also associated with traumatic dreams of "night monsters" and bizarre deviance sex behavior is also intriguing.

From the perspective of yoga it is the strong amplitude, high frequency paradox that enables the awareness to leave the body while in a deep sleep trance state.

So for the example of one parasomnia patient, who achieved lucid dreaming, and apparently had a dream of a future catastrophe (the Bhopal Carbide disaster), there is some indication that REM sleep can be utilized for astral travel as well.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[Kongming]

18 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

These "intellectual" debates are tawdry.

 

Well I am of the opinion that intellectualism and debate won't bring anyone any closer to enlightenment, but the Buddha himself debated various critics and rivals and India has had a long tradition of debate which they considered important, and this has passed over into Tibetan Buddhism.

 

That said, the goal of this thread is to highlight what differences exist between Daoism and Buddhism. Whether one feels the differences are unimportant or not is a personal sentiment unrelated to the thread.

[voidisyinyang]

6 minutes ago, Kongming said:

 

Well I am of the opinion that intellectualism and debate won't bring anyone any closer to enlightenment, but the Buddha himself debated various critics and rivals and India has had a long tradition of debate which they considered important, and this has passed over into Tibetan Buddhism.

 

That said, the goal of this thread is to highlight what differences exist between Daoism and Buddhism. Whether one feels the differences are unimportant or not is a personal sentiment unrelated to the thread.

 

I just edited my post.

 

Try to response to the content of the information I post.

 

Thank you.

 

Have you even read my pdf yet?

 

I reference it about - see the image and link to the study of trans-metamorphic memory.

 

thanks

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

Edited June 28, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

Now notice yesterday - I quoted Pregadio from the source you posted.

 

I actually engage with the citations you post.

 

Pregadio referenced this image of the Tai Chi:

 

 

He stated that the "hub" was the Emptiness and the yin-yang then revolved around that hub.

 

But that is not the oldest image of the Tai Chi - it is a later Song derivation.

 

 

So here is the oldest image of the Tai Chi.

 

Notice the difference.

 

NO HUB OF EMPTINESS.

 

It's yin-yang all the way down.

 

Eternally.

 

https://chinesemedicalclassics.wordpress.com/tag/tai-chi/

 

Now last night I posted the discussion of the "later" image of the  Tai Chi with the supposed hub.

 

The author who made that image spent his life clarifying that Wuji IS Taichi.

 

Quote

"The Emptiness from which existence comes forth is the central hub." p. 5

 

Wrong.

 

http://www.academia.edu/8144785/Creation_and_Its_Inversion_Cosmos_Human_Being_and_Elixir_in_the_Cantong_qi_The_Seal_of_the_Unity_of_the_Three_

 

Pregadio is relying on the wrong meaning of the original Tai Chi symbol.

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

On 6/27/2017 at 10:12 AM, Wu Ming Jen said:

Tao means both existence and non exsistance two sides of the coin.

 

This is not the meaning of complementary opposites.

 

So 2=C while F=3=G at the same time.

 

It is not a coin - but a Klein Bottle - two moebius strips put together that can not be visualized, fundamentally since it's the 4th dimension of space but as time - noncommutative phase.

 

You can read my pdf for images to help clarify things for you.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

[Kongming]

Perhaps you should start a new thread on the topic on the nature of the Dao, yinyang, time, etc. since it is off topic here. That said I remain convinced of my own position outlined yesterday, so as far as me personally we will have to settle on agreeing to disagree.

 

Returning to the topic, it also seems that Daoism and Buddhism share differences regarding sacred numbers. In Daoism sacred numerology plays a large role whereas in Buddhism it plays a considerably lesser role as far as I've studied it. Not only is sacred numerology more important in Daoism, the two traditions are different in what numbers they consider sacred. Daoism closely mirrors Western esotericism in this regard, with emphasis on 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, whereas in Buddhism it seems 8 and 10 received greater emphasis.