Do you improvise in Qi Gong and Tai Chi?

[oranssi]

Do you improvise when practicing Qi Gong or even in Tai Chi Chuan (always attending of course, the essential core of the exercise)? Instead doing the traditional practice do you ajust what feels right to you?

Edited June 14, 2017 by oranssi
typo

[RiverSnake]

I would say....do your research and find a system that resonates with you and stick to it. After practicing daily for many years and developing your own intuitive "knowing" capacity....then you may wish to start improvising....as you will actually be able to tell whether what your doing is healthy and effective.....or not.

 

Each system is "VERY SPECIFIC" in what kind of flow it's attempting to trigger in the body....even small adjustments can cause unintentional non-beneficial shifts in it's effectiveness. 

 

 

 

Edited June 14, 2017 by OldSaint

[Taomeow]

Absolutely not.  Although I did when I was a beginner.

 

 

 

[Michael Sternbach]

When I practise the Old Yang form, I don't alter the movements per se. But I sometimes vary the speed, the height of my stances and other accompanying factors, taking into account what my body and mind need at a given time.

 

I feel that this kind of "going with the flow" is important when practising Taiji. Ideally, you wouldn't be paying any conscious attention to what your body is doing.

[Miroku]

To a certain degree you have to improvise from the beginning. My teacher of qigong teaches us that it is essential to respond to current situation. for example when it is hot outside we don't do too much standing meditation but do movements more and meditate and relax more. When on the other hand it is cold it we do more zhan zhuang and etc. Afaik qigong is about finding a balance so your practice must correspond. 

[oranssi]

Thank you for those valuable replies. I do improvise mostly because I feel like I can't help to do what my body wants at a certain situation. Might it be a lack of discipline?

[RiverSnake]

There are certain systems that emphasize spontaneous movement in which you simply allow the body to move on its own. Spontaneous shaking is one such method.

 

If the systems your practicing do not include this as a part.....then i would make them separate practices. It would be bad form to mix things and could potentially hinder the benefits you receive. 

 

 

[dwai]

19 hours ago, oranssi said:

Do you improvise when practicing Qi Gong or even in Tai Chi Chuan (always attending of course, the essential core of the exercise)? Instead doing the traditional practice do you ajust what feels right to you?

There's a stage in Tai chi practice when one can and should do that. But before one can just flow, one needs to first feel the qi, grow the qi and connect with the energies outside. Once you connect with the energies outside, then you let them lead you and it's okay to deviate from the form after that. However, its very easy to fool oneself into thinking they are "flowing" when it's more than likely that your mind is driving the "flow". When the outside moves you, you don't have any control...it just happens...

Edited June 15, 2017 by dwai
grammar

[Daeluin]

Do you improvise when drawing a circle?

 

No - it wouldn't be a circle.

 

The key is learning first how to draw the circle - and why you can't ever get it quite right. In the beginning we have blind spots - places we are energetically imbalanced. These blind spots are more difficult to work in, and improvising early on may lead us to avoid what is difficult rather than working through it to dissolve the blockages and evolve into greater wholeness within.

 

A circle is complex. We can see this by following a complete cycle of life and death.

• A seed being nourished and the initiation of life.
• The life within the seed orienting between the six directions of qi.
• The growth of the spout as it courageously and blindly pushes up and down through the earth.
• The surface is reached and leaves come out as the small plant basks in the sunlight and flouishes in growth.
• Strong and healthy, the vitality and strength increase.
• Having reached adequate strength, flowers blossom and the energy of growth transforms into expression.
• The culmination of growth which represents the birth of decline. The flower is fertilized and the fruit is born.
• The flower fades as the fruit grows, and the vitality of the plant begins to flow into the fruit and seeds for the next generation.
• The fruit develops and begins to take shape.
• The fruit, fully grown, matures and ripens, as the energy of the plant begins to settle.
• The life force within the plant begins to fade and the ripened fruit drops to the ground.
• The plant, its energy gone, dies. The fruit too returns into the soil, its seeds being incubated within in preparation for the next new phase of growth.

This is the cycle of the seasons, the cycle of day and night. It is the 12 animal signs of the chinese zodiac (12 earthly branches) starting with rat (zi).

 

 

There is a very important yet subtle concept hidden within this: One part is encoded and hidden within other parts.

 

When one begins to draw a circle on paper, as the curve takes shape it begins to inform where the rest of the circle belongs. To deviate from this path means one is deviating from the center.

 

When moving the arms in a circle like holding a ball, starting at lower dan tien, over and up one side, to top of head, down the other side to return - all of these phases may be experienced, including the sensation of each part being interconnected with the other parts.

 

When one moves the arms, the whole body is moving, and there are many many energetic circles present elsewhere within the body. Especially as the arms begin to go upwards, the opposite foot is sinking a deeper root, yet as one reaches a certain place the opposite hip (same as the side of the arms) reaches a point where it cannot go further to the side and begins to rotate. This rotation, fueled by the rooting of the other foot/leg, transforms into upward movement - and thus fire is born within wood. Fire represents the culmination and peak, yet is is already defined and present within the early stages of growth, even as growth itself (wood) is beginning to fill with life.

 

Each of these different phases begin to inform each other through the rotation. After the top is reached and fire and yang have culminated, yin is born, and yet the momentum initiated by yang continues. Even as it continues, it no longer has force behind it, and the momentum is simply allowed to take its course as one allows the motion to return. The more one is able to get out of the way of controlling this yin phase of the cycle, the more one will begin to discover the different phases within this cycle.

 

Unlike the cycle with the plant and fruit, during the metal phase we do not release our energy externally (like I am here), but along with the fire we turn inwards, and practice acceptance during the metal phase to allow the energy to fully return within. To do this we need to be empty otherwise we will create too much shaping of the metal for it to be able to fit within. This is part of withdrawing the yin response.

 

Here, we use a big circle in the body as a more obvious example, but the same principles are present everywhere, all of the time. Here, we explore knowledge to reach a greater depth of comprehension, yet we now must also dissolve this knowledge and allow it to grow within on its own, lest we become attached to using it to control things.

 

The key is to reach a place where we feel these things happening on their own as we simply set intention to open and close within different shapings of the body. The taijiquan forms provide us with many different body shapes from which to explore dynamic openings and closings, expansions and contractions of the energy. IMO, once we are able to feel these dynamics operate smoothly on their own without getting stuck in different parts of their cyclings, then we have reached a place from which we may improvise.

[Taomeow]

[blue eyed snake]

I'm taught both form and spontaneous movement. But those two are not to be mixed.

being a beginner, when I do a form I need to try to keep to that, after having done spontaneous movement that's not always easy

 

Interesting idea that , maybe, there will come a time that that will change and that there will come more freedom (?) in doing the form. But I do not hanker for it.

[doc benway]

On 6/14/2017 at 2:17 PM, oranssi said:

Do you improvise when practicing Qi Gong or even in Tai Chi Chuan (always attending of course, the essential core of the exercise)? Instead doing the traditional practice do you ajust what feels right to you?

 

Good question, yes I do improvise (after a fashion) but it is no substitute for traditional form and drill practice - that's important!

 

My recommendation to most people would be to focus nearly exclusively on traditional forms and teachings for about a decade before being too concerned with improvisation, particularly if interested in martial application and optimal health and energetic benefits. Occasional dabbling in improvisation or cobbling together combinations to refine footwork, balance, and transitions is fine and beneficial. Creating your own short form for competition purposes is a great exercise for beginning and intermediate students. Creating your own drills is even more important as you advance. It is important that we dig into the forms and drills we are taught and find the multiple meanings - some obvious and many hidden. 

 

My training partner and I dissected the 2 man form (Dui Lian) in our style over a period of several years and extracted dozens of martial drills which we practiced obsessively. I think this is how the style is meant to be treated. We are given the alphabet and a few beautiful songs made of these techniques. We then learn to speak the language fluently and eventually to sing. At some point there must be improvisation, particularly if you are interested in martial application. I do think it is important how we approach improvisation, however.

 

In essence, what I am referring to is a shamanic approach. This approach requires skill, experience, trust, devotion, gratitude, openness, and lack of self. It is greatly enhanced by direct connection to a lineage and living master. For me, "improvisation" is a way of practicing wu wei, spontaneity, and a way of integrating the meditative state with movement. Most importantly, it is a way of connecting with the inner master which is ultimately the source of all teachings and the place we turn for help when our teacher is no longer there for us. Eventually in our training, there comes a time when we are the ones who need to answer the questions, there needs to be confidence in that inner resource. When that is there, we are ready for improvisation.

[liminal_luke]

Just thinking here...

 

I don`t improvise exactly but I do surrender -- I surrender to the form.  Surrender can feel improvisational as there`s a quality of moving beyond habitual movement patterns, doing something outside the norm: in surrender we move into unknown kinesthetic or energetic territory.  Take standing, for instance.  If we stand long enough in any position we`ll experience resistance.  The normal thing to do when we feel resistance is to stop standing.  (Whew, that feels better.)  But what if -- as an improvisational experiment -- we allow ourselves to sink even deeper into the pose instead.  This is what an old teacher of mine used to tell me, " if you get tired, bend your knees more."  What if we surrender to the place the form is trying to take us?

 

We can approach practice playfully, with an improvisational open spirit -- and be entirely traditional at the same time. 

[silent thunder]

There are two forms that flow through me which have a fixed set of movements as they were shared with me... and my intent is to always allow those movements to flow through me in the order they were shown to me when I play with them.  These forms were taught to me for a purpose, were designed for a purpose and as such, I have not intentionally altered them... though as I go back through my journals and original notes (usually review them once or twice a year), I often note there are points of the form that have become personalized without intent or my conscious directive.  I usually note them in my log, then with intent, go back to the original series of movements as taught.

 

Over the last few years, a series of Wu Wei'esque movements have begun to arise and flow through me spontaneously.  These flows arise without any intention or warning and there is a very natural progression to them, one naturally flows to the next, but there is no forward anticipation, expectation, nor guiding, or willful direction of any kind.  I would like to point out that these impulses of wu wei have never manifested during my forms work.  This sort of thing always comes upon me outside of my forms work.

 

I will suddenly embody the impulse to breath and flow with Qi and the flow dictates very naturally the cycle of movements and as quickly as they arise, they express, then dissolve.  While this is Qi Gong, it is a living embodiment of structureless structure.  The movements that manifest, the hand positions, hip rotations, footwork, arm position and flow are all familiar, yet they manifest without forethought and arise seemingly from the body itself.

 

Thankfully I work in a field where I am supported in my random behaviors and so I can freely embrace this and allow it without much more than some curious stares and sometimes a question or two... (and it's particularly fun when it pops up at say the grocery store, and I do with it and there I am, a modern Viking, flowing around the produce section with avocados in my hands while giggling). 

 

I imagine what it must look like from the outside which causes the giggling and I remember this quote... " and those who were seen dancing, seemed insane, to those who did not hear the music." 

 

In the end, it's all vibration, frequency and resonance.  Every movement, breath, word and thought.  All the way up and all the way down.  As above, so below.  As within, without.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by silent thunder
edit to add a few phrases for clarity

[Spotless]

There have been many good responses here to the original post.

 

I wanted to add that in addition to many of the fine details being very very integral and important aspects of Qi Gong - it was mentioned that at some point down the road you could consider personalizing a bit.

 

That time frame should be around when you feel your Qi and the meridians at least as strongly as you do your arms, legs, hands, nose, eyes and entire body.

 

As a teacher I see all sorts of personalizing happening and I frequently point out what is being missed in the changes. Good Qi Gong is incredibly specific. If you have made any assumption regarding what is going on it is incorrect. This is not to say you must be "perfect" but many little things are in fact the biggest things in this practice.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Spotless

[Daeluin]

In addition to my earlier sharing, I'd like to also share that I tend to think too much. And this overthinking tends to make me heavy. In my own experience, I attended a ecstatic dance gathering a couple times a month, for a time. I would practice movements that were mostly improvisational from my forms, and it was quite beneficial for opening me up and getting lighter.

 

Of course, the opposite could be true for people who are too light and don't know how to ground and integrate. It is all balance, and generally it can all be found in the forms. Sometimes we need to listen to life's lessons too, in order to help shift into a more positive balance.

[dwai]

58 minutes ago, Daeluin said:

In addition to my earlier sharing, I'd like to also share that I tend to think too much. And this overthinking tends to make me heavy. In my own experience, I attended a ecstatic dance gathering a couple times a month, for a time. I would practice movements that were mostly improvisational from my forms, and it was quite beneficial for opening me up and getting lighter.

 

Of course, the opposite could be true for people who are too light and don't know how to ground and integrate. It is all balance, and generally it can all be found in the forms. Sometimes we need to listen to life's lessons too, in order to help shift into a more positive balance.

Wow! Yes!!!

If mind is used too much, a heaviness sets. It feels very powerful, but is not a very good thing to cultivate. My Master told me that when that happens, it's best to distract the mind. Ask someone a question or look at something outside. I'll sometimes look at the birds in the backyard or the trees etc. Even a brief moment is enough to lighten the energy.

 

The second is to maintain the crown point suspension. People obsess over developing the "root". However, real root happens when the crown is properly suspended. One cannot drive one's mind + energy through the feet deep into the ground and be healthy, imho. 

 

When the crown is suspended, a lightness of being develops and we don't feel any weight/heaviness at all. In my experience, we will keep refining and remembering these things, as over time, we tend to focus too deeply on specifics and forget about the basics. Although the foundations/basics do become ingrained, we still have revisit them from time to time and rediscover (progressively subtler but also progressively more intense) what these basics entail...

 

[Fa Xin]

I will improvise and combine elements of taijiquan, xingyiquan and baguazhang into sort of a freestyle shadow boxing thing. 

 

I usually do this at the end of my training session, after I've practiced properly for more than an hour. At this point I'm really "feeling it". 

 

My teachers have always taught me to take the forms and make them my own. Get so comfortable with them that you can do them backwards and in your sleep. 

 

How else would you utilize them in a tense situation?

 

this is from a martial perspective only. I don't improvise with qigong personally. 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Fa Xin

[Spotless]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Wow! Yes!!!

If mind is used too much, a heaviness sets. It feels very powerful, but is not a very good thing to cultivate. My Master told me that when that happens, it's best to distract the mind. Ask someone a question or look at something outside. I'll sometimes look at the birds in the backyard or the trees etc. Even a brief moment is enough to lighten the energy.

 

The second is to maintain the crown point suspension. People obsess over developing the "root". However, real root happens when the crown is properly suspended. One cannot drive one's mind + energy through the feet deep into the ground and be healthy, imho. 

 

When the crown is suspended, a lightness of being develops and we don't feel any weight/heaviness at all. In my experience, we will keep refining and remembering these things, as over time, we tend to focus too deeply on specifics and forget about the basics. Although the foundations/basics do become ingrained, we still have revisit them from time to time and rediscover (progressively subtler but also progressively more intense) what these basics entail...

end Quote 

 

I'm not so sure people obsess over developing the root - the root is the fount of the spring - from it all else will unfold.

I do not know what is meant by "the crown is suspended" but in general "doing" to the crown is not suggested and there are many ways to get to lightness that are misleading. 

 

Growth that has naturally unfolded from the spring of the root will naturally Awaken all of the higher centers - and the lightness will occur with no "doing" and it will become sustained. 

 

Very few few people actually think at all - but most have many thoughts. If you have many thoughts that are fairly rapid then typically ecstatic dance is not what you should seek - it is both high trance and transmedium inducing.

 

If your body tends to be somewhat thick in its energy and you are somewhat "brickish" and find yourself unable to fluidize your space to the point that you recognize this then certain things like Chanting and ecstatic practices can be helpful. 

 

Trance and transmedium inducing states in general are entertaining and addictive - they are pure white sugar to our senses and a quick expansion and letting go of what is already out of control - though in some these are "in control" through suppression 

and or DNA. 

 

I am particularly familiar with traditional non-western Yoga and Qi Gong - Good practice in these includes everything needed to bring about opening in all of the centers without "doing" in the sense of personal engineering.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 19, 2017 by Spotless

[dwai]

2 minutes ago, Spotless said:

I'm not so sure people obsess over developing the root - the root is the fount of the spring - from it all else will unfold.

I do not know what is meant by "the crown is suspended" but in general "doing" to the crown is not suggested and there are many ways to get to lightness that are misleading. 

 

Growth that has naturally unfolded from the spring of the root will naturally Awaken all of the higher centers - and the lightness will occur with no "doing" and it will become sustained. 

 

Very few few people actually think at all - but most have many thoughts. If you have many thoughts that are fairly rapid then typically ecstatic dance is not what you should seek - it is both high trance and transmedium inducing.

 

If your body tends to be somewhat thick in its energy and you are somewhat "brickish" and find yourself unable to fluidize your space to the point that you recognize this then certain things like Chanting and ecstatic practices can be helpful. 

 

Trance and transmedium inducing states in general are entertaining and addictive - they are pure white sugar to our senses and a quick expansion and letting go of what is already out of control - though in some these are "in control" through suppression 

and or DNA. 

 

I am particularly familiar with traditional non-western Yoga and Qi Gong - Good practice in these includes everything needed to bring about opening in all of the centers without doing" in the sense of personal engineering.

 

 

 

 

 

It's my experience that people do tend try too hard to "grow" a root in internal martial arts like Taijiquan. Root doesn't grow like that. Mind (not the same as Yi) and energy are actually opposite. So wherever the mind goes, the energy flows in the opposite direction (mind is substantial, energy is insubstantial in comparison). 

 

Crownpoint suspension feels like hanging from a point in the space above the crown point. The higher the crown point suspends (mind sort of pins the energetic connection from a point above the bai hui), the deeper the root. 

 

Yes, there has to be a release of "doing", and the doing we do in tai chi (at least how we practice it), is limited to letting the mind rest far away from where the energy is going/meant to go. If mind and energy overlap, it is called becoming double-heavy.

 

[Spotless]

11 minutes ago, dwai said:

It's my experience that people do tend try too hard to "grow" a root in internal martial arts like Taijiquan. Root doesn't grow like that. Mind (not the same as Yi) and energy are actually opposite. So wherever the mind goes, the energy flows in the opposite direction (mind is substantial, energy is insubstantial in comparison). 

 

Crownpoint suspension feels like hanging from a point in the space above the crown point. The higher the crown point suspends (mind sort of pins the energetic connection from a point above the bai hui), the deeper the root. 

 

Yes, there has to be a release of "doing", and the doing we do in tai chi (at least how we practice it), is limited to letting the mind rest far away from where the energy is going/meant to go. If mind and energy overlap, it is called becoming double-heavy.

 

To develope the root all one needs to do is breath into it and have ones attention in it.  If ones attention is in it - the "mind" will be still. 

 

In the initial stages this can be cumbersome - a bit lunky- but in not to much time the presence is in the root while having expanded to the whole. Mind ceases to be an issue.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Spotless

[oranssi]

All very good and nice replies. A pleasure to read them. Thank you!

In my practice I use to improvise in two manners. One is when I try to adapt the moves for martial application but the most amazing manner is when I simply loose it when doing the form and I get in a certain "mood".

 

I just let my body flow almost without control and it feels exhilarating sometimes even euphoric. I do this with variying speed, height of stance, different fa jing strikes, etc.

 

I don't know if this happens with many others but what liminal_luke said ressonated with me on this.

 

 

[Spotless]

I wanted to note that none of my replies have been related towards the martial arts.

[Spotless]

As an example of a fine point in the practice of Qi Gong:

 

in nearly every case in which the arms are raise above the head the shoulders should go back - if they do not then the channels behind the ears will not be part of the moves energy flow and stimulation - this then will remove from these practices whole areas of the head region.

 

--

 

When the head is turned in most cases it should be turned as much as possible - this is very important otherwise the movement of energies from one side of the head to the other does not occur and this will greatly reduce head region progress.

---

both of the above examples taken together and not done will result in very ineffective Qi Gong.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Spotless