Science and Enlightenment

[Shanmugam]

Recently, I became very curious about bridging science and enlightenment. So, I went through many articles, books, scientific papers etc that have addressed this subject so far and tried to create a synthesis. 

I put together everything in one article, citing all the sources. You can read it here: https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/is-there-a-scientific-evidence-for-spiritual-enlightenment/

It is very long one but I hope you enjoy it.

Edited June 15, 2017 by Shanmugam

[Brian]

Fixed link here:

https://nellaishanmugam.wordpress.com/2017/06/13/is-there-a-scientific-evidence-for-spiritual-enlightenment/

[Shanmugam]

Thanks Brian.. I must have done something wrong. I have fixed the link now

[voidisyinyang]

You have some good science research but the problem is the studies are limited by the skill level of the meditation being studied.

 

So for example Herbert Benson at Harvard studied tummo yogis in the Himalayas who slept over night in below freezing temperatures - outside on a cliff with thin-bare clothing - and yet never were shivering.

 

So real enlightenment is a full body-mind transformation - and Western science technology is too limited to test it.

 

Another example is a biophoton study of a qigong master - and her biophoton readings were much higher than the other people testing - and she could control the biophoton emission level when she visualized her energy outsider herself, etc.

 

But these studies taken out of context are difficult to determine what they mean in terms of training for enlightenment, etc.

 

I made a pdf of many science studies for the enlightenment training - it draws from both Chinese and Indian meditation sources as well as African.

 

thanks - https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

so that's a free pdf link - lots of images, etc.

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

You have some good science research but the problem is the studies are limited by the skill level of the meditation being studied.

 

So for example Herbert Benson at Harvard studied tummo yogis in the Himalayas who slept over night in below freezing temperatures - outside on a cliff with thin-bare clothing - and yet never were shivering.

 

So real enlightenment is a full body-mind transformation - and Western science technology is too limited to test it.

 

Another example is a biophoton study of a qigong master - and her biophoton readings were much higher than the other people testing - and she could control the biophoton emission level when she visualized her energy outsider herself, etc.

 

But these studies taken out of context are difficult to determine what they mean in terms of training for enlightenment, etc.

 

I made a pdf of many science studies for the enlightenment training - it draws from both Chinese and Indian meditation sources as well as African.

 

thanks - https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

so that's a free pdf link - lots of images, etc.

 

That book looks cool. Thanks for sharing.

[kpodhayski]

If there is an enlightenment, why does all this gobbly gook matter? Didn't all the past masters get by fine without it?

[Marblehead]

And would it matter even if there is no such thing as enlightenment?

 

 

[kpodhayski]

14 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

And would it matter even if there is no such thing as enlightenment?

 

 

 

Ha! For a lot of people it seems to!

[Marblehead]

7 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Ha! For a lot of people it seems to!

Yeah, I even talk about it now and again.  Thing is, I always mention that I have not yet heard an acceptable definition of "enlightenment" so I wouldn't know who has it and who doesn't.

 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Ha! For a lot of people it seems to!

 

It's the carrot!

[Shanmugam]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, I even talk about it now and again.  Thing is, I always mention that I have not yet heard an acceptable definition of "enlightenment" so I wouldn't know who has it and who doesn't.

 

Enlightenment boils down to 'end of suffering'...  That is actually the best way to define in to a layman. At least, it tells him that there is a way out of it..

 

The reason I think science should do more research on this is because once science accepts the possibility of ending the human suffering by a spiritual practice, it will appeal to more people. Then more people will start to do some practice towards their transformation.Of course, all these scientific research wouldn't matter for someone who is already enlightened. But there are 7 billion people in the world and almost 99% of them are trying to find their way out in the dark. They have no idea about enlightenment, a spiritual practice etc. And they are not ready to trust someone who just claims to be enlightened because the whole enlightenment thing has also been used by fake guys to abuse people.

 

If science comes up with neural correlates of enlightenment and finds out exactly how to measure it in the brain, then it would be very easy to find out if someone is enlightened or not. Then all that has to be done is to put you in a fMRI scan and the scan results will tell you if you are enlightened. It may not be possible anytime in the near future but it is not impossible.. Future is always open and it never closes. So, sometime in the future I am sure it will be possible.

 

Science has just started to do some research on it. Also, the field of neuroscience is very young. Once scientists get more idea about the brain it will become even easier.

 

[Michael Sternbach]

So you want to measure enlightenment?! 

 

That would presuppose a scientific definition of "enlightenment" - of which there are many different forms, BTW. E.g., the enlightenment of a Zen Buddhist might look quite different from the enlightenment of an Anthroposophical mathematician.

 

And the "enlightened ones" that were approved by the neuroscientists would be granted much more authority than the ones that were not. Triiiicky...

 

I think most truly enlightened individuals would choose not to play that game in the first place. I doubt that I would respect one who DID!!!

[Shanmugam]

2 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

So you want to measure enlightenment?! 

 

That would presuppose a scientific definition of "enlightenment" - of which there are many different forms, BTW. E.g., the enlightenment of a Zen Buddhist might look quite different from the enlightenment of an Anthroposophical mathematician.

 

And the "enlightened ones" that were approved by the neuroscientists would be granted much more authority than the ones that were not. Triiiicky...

 

I think most truly enlightened individuals would choose not to play that game in the first place. I doubt that I would respect one who DID!!!

 

All of what you are saying is understandable... Do you think scientists are going to ignore all these? Looks like there is an assumption in your reply that scientists have no idea about enlightenment. Most of the people who do research on these stuff are both neuroscienstists as well as meditators who have been practicing for years under an authentic guru.But we still have the picture of scientists in our mind who is wearing a white coat with beard and thinking that spirituality is bull shit. That is not true at all... They are just human beings like you and me, just having a profession in the research field. 

 

In fact Buddha was a scientist. Any body who takes scientific approach to acquire knowledge is a scientist. Right now Dalai Lama is working with a lot of neuroscientists and there is an institute called 'Mind and life institute' which was set up by working with Dalai Lama (Tenzin Gyatso)..

 

The studies that I have gone through has addressed all these challenges already. And I agree that progress will be slow. We may not be even alive to see the progress. But we are just sowing the seeds.

 

"I think most truly enlightened individuals would choose not to play that game in the first place."

What you say might be true for today... But in 100 years from now, things will be different.. You are probably not able to agree on this because I have put the gist of what may happen in the next 100-300 years in 1 paragraph.

 

[bax44]

11 minutes ago, Shanmugam said:

 

All of what you are saying is understandable... Do you think scientists are going to ignore all these? Looks like there is an assumption in your reply that scientists have no idea about enlightenment. Most of the people who do research on these stuff are both neuroscienstists as well as meditators who have been practicing for years under an authentic guru.But we still have the picture of scientists in our mind who is wearing a white coat with beard and thinking that spirituality is bull shit. That is not true at all... They are just human beings like you and me, just having a profession in the research field. 

 

In fact Buddha was a scientist. Any body who takes scientific approach to acquire knowledge is a scientist. Right now Dalai Lama is working with a lot of neuroscientists and there is an institute called 'Mind and life institute' which was set up by working with Dalai Lama (Tenzin Gyatso)..

 

The studies that I have gone through has addressed all these challenges already. And I agree that progress will be slow. We may not be even alive to see the progress. But we are just sowing the seeds.

 

"I think most truly enlightened individuals would choose not to play that game in the first place."

What you say might be true for today... But in 100 years from now, things will be different.. You are probably not able to agree on this because I have put the gist of what may happen in the next 100-300 years in 1 paragraph.

 

 

Good post. If science and spirituality can converge-Ive always been of the opinion spirituality is basically a science experiment on yourself-brain change.. then why shouldnt that be a good thing? Imagine if there were ways to get the  ordinary person safely and quickly to a much different more pliable state of consciousness, Id see this as only a positive. Maybe this "stuff" has been hidden for too long and having it out there and being studied can only help our situation on this planet.

[voidisyinyang]

I don't want to rain on this science parade - but as much as people want to study science (as I have done intensively) we need to be not in denial about the empirical facts.

 

https://guymcpherson.com/2017/02/faster-than-expected/

 

The math of science is logarithmic exponentials since Plato and Archytas as the Greek Miracle. The technology of science is based on the math and the energy use increases exponentially along with population growth.

 

 

 

This basic fact is covered up by all the science promotion propaganda we are buried in.

 

People of advanced meditation level are very rare.

 

For example science has now proven that most Tibetan monks in India have the ulcer disease from bacteria.

 

In other words their meditation is not strong enough to kill the bacteria giving them ulcers.

 

Now that is understandable as the Tibetan monk training in India requires Ph.D. level of book study first before serious meditation.

 

But also consider that these Tibetan monks did not have the ulcer - in Tibet - they got the ulcer in India because the bacteria is from the wheat-based monoculture farming.

 

Tibet relied on barley but when the chinese invaded Tibet they insisted on rice farming instead of barley - or maybe it was wheat farming - regardless they ignore the local ecology of grain adaptation.

 

The British did the same in Bangladesh where Jute farming was the main crop but the British insisted instead rice be grown for export.

 

 are exceptions.

 

But these

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, Shanmugam said:

 

All of what you are saying is understandable... Do you think scientists are going to ignore all these? Looks like there is an assumption in your reply that scientists have no idea about enlightenment. Most of the people who do research on these stuff are both neuroscienstists as well as meditators who have been practicing for years under an authentic guru.But we still have the picture of scientists in our mind who is wearing a white coat with beard and thinking that spirituality is bull shit. That is not true at all... They are just human beings like you and me, just having a profession in the research field. 

 

In fact Buddha was a scientist. Any body who takes scientific approach to acquire knowledge is a scientist. Right now Dalai Lama is working with a lot of neuroscientists and there is an institute called 'Mind and life institute' which was set up by working with Dalai Lama (Tenzin Gyatso)..

 

The studies that I have gone through has addressed all these challenges already. And I agree that progress will be slow. We may not be even alive to see the progress. But we are just sowing the seeds.

 

"I think most truly enlightened individuals would choose not to play that game in the first place."

What you say might be true for today... But in 100 years from now, things will be different.. You are probably not able to agree on this because I have put the gist of what may happen in the next 100-300 years in 1 paragraph.

 

 

Shanmugam,

 

You are new to this forum, otherwise you would know that I am actually one of the most scientifically inclined regulars here. Many of my posts are revolving around the connection of science and mysticism. I do believe that the union of these two approaches to understanding the world is crucial to humanity's future evolution in consciousness.

 

However, because of my involvement with various sciences, I am also aware of the limitations of objectivying and measuring things. Especially things as subtle and intangible as "enlightenment".

 

Don't get me wrong. I do not reject scientific research into human consciousness per se. But I do object to the idea of certifying spiritual teachers on the basis of brain scans and the like.

 

What matters is that people develop the ability to trust their own judgement and follow their own intuition. That's the message of the great spiritual terachers.

 

We need less superficial objectification. Less other-directed authorization. Less scans.

 

[Spotless]

I was speaking with several famous doctors last night well into the late hours. One is a neural scientist along with many other degrees - and then the conversation turned from some of his and several others famous escapades in Afghanistan doing military work there to some of the other stuff he is into and the It turned out he is leading studies of meditators and Awakened individuals and brain states etc. From there the conversation went from a rehash of bravado and whiz kids adventures to one entirely of science and altered states or brain sciences.

 

The two of us had a lengthy fine point conversation - and it turned out that the other very famous world trotting doctor was actively involved in the energetics of the surgery he performs - even going so far as having a psychic with good visual abilities active in some of his surgeries. The neural scientist is a brilliant as they come and he has been able to map certain states extensively - but it is obvious that the limitations of science are considerable at this time.

 

With that said - the general evidence of specific states is emerging far more clearly with every passing year. Those at the cutting edge are outside of convention - he is certainly doing work outside of University constraint.

 

When one has reached a state of no suffering - it does not meet the general definition of Enlightenment - for those in the "know".

One fully settled in an Awakened state is in a state of no suffering - and while this is an immense shift, it is in no way necessarily inclusive of a great number of further factors of unfolding that may or may not come to one Awakened. Assessing what is meant by one "fully settled in Awakening" is fairly tricky as well - this cannot be determined by someone outside this state and it is definitely not all that obvious to those in an Awakened state until it is and that may happen several times in the course of unfolding and expansion until certain clarity stabilizes in stillness.

 

Even in the generally stabilized state of Awakening most are just beginning many of the physical changes that are necessary over several gross and subtle bodies that will take place for many years and within this few have any experience - though the settled nature of Presence makes expansion into these accelerated - most will be considerably fascinated in these.

 

More classical pointing to the nature of high Enlightenment is far beyond "no suffering" which occurs fairly early on post Awakening. Oneness and higher Heart also occur fairly early on and for the most part these are the areas that occupy the Awakened.

 

The subtleties of these later aspects would be very hard to verify and most Awakened and Enlightened" individuals would be hard put to go beyond these subtleties in so far as pointing scientists in the right directions or even in relating what they would then wish to relate. Most are unaware of them or only casually relating to them.

 

It may well be that the general release of "position" that is "the end of suffering" that occurs in those settled in Awakening could be measured relatively soon. This can be measured/seen with current technology- I see it as color and sound and it is clear and striking but it is not a state that one shifts in and out of - so one has to find it scientifically after the fact. Finding it after the fact is not so easy particularly as many in Oneness and higher Heart may not be Awakened yet not understand that they are not because so many of the markers for one Awakened can seem to point that an Awakening has occurred permanently and yet it has not - yet they will often be quite certain they are there until it happens that they realize / attain to Awakening and then it becomes extremely clear otherwise.

 

The conversation with the scientists however brilliant is throttled through the lens of interviews and device research - those interviewed are throttled though the lens of languages that are at odds with each other and science in so many ways. Device research currently is unable to register a number of subtle bodies and few can point to the nature of these subtle bodies let alone speak of them fluently from actual experience.

 

What is exciting is that many that have attained considerable inner awareness have found strong validation in the findings of many new scientific studies - even many detailed little things. And many in the scientific fields no longer ignore these studies as so funk in left field. Still, much of this is considered a waste of time by top in the field medical schools and research institutes as well as the hot shots who might disregard those views but do not. 

 

 

[Shanmugam]

2 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Shanmugam,

 

You are new to this forum, otherwise you would know that I am actually one of the most scientifically inclined regulars here. Many of my posts are revolving around the connection of science and mysticism. I do believe that the union of these two approaches to understanding the world is crucial to humanity's future evolution in consciousness.

 

However, because of my involvement with various sciences, I am also aware of the limitations of objectivying and measuring things. Especially things as subtle and intangible as "enlightenment".

 

Don't get me wrong. I do not reject scientific research into human consciousness per se. But I do object to the idea of certifying spiritual teachers on the basis of brain scans and the like.

 

What matters is that people develop the ability to trust their own judgement and follow their own intuition. That's the message of the great spiritual terachers.

 

We need less superficial objectification. Less other-directed authorization. Less scans.

 

 

' But I do object to the idea of certifying spiritual teachers on the basis of brain scans and the like.'

 

The reason I think it should happen is because of the trouble I went through in identifying right ones from so many fake ones.. And there have been people who said things which resonated with me and my intuition told me that I have found the right Guru.. But I have found out later that they were simply repeating some insightful thoughts and pointers offered by other authentic gurus, and they were not able to help me any further. I think many people might face the same problem too.

 

In the state where I live in India, general public is always suspicious of anyone claiming to be a Guru, because many people who claimed to be a guru have sexually abused people in the past two decades. But this was not the case about 50-60 years ago. The problem with relying on our own judgments is that sometimes it could be extremely biased.

 

Also, when I think about what might happen in the future, I can see that when science discovers some interesting things about spirituality, a lot of things will change. If spiritual enlightenment is recognized as a possibility by the whole scientific community, it will increase the awareness about  spiritual paths and practices all over the world. We may find lessons about spiritual enlightenment in the biology text books of tenth grade students..(so far, they are only in history texbooks). Then governments in many countries may make it a requirement to obtain a license for making a claim of enlightenment and starting to teach other people. It may sound funny but future has all possibilities. 

 

But anyway, certifying enlightened people using brain scans is just one example of several outcomes of a scientific knowledge about enlightenment. 

 

 

[kpodhayski]

4 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

Enlightenment boils down to 'end of suffering'...  That is actually the best way to define in to a layman. At least, it tells him that there is a way out of it..

 

Science has just started to do some research on it. Also, the field of neuroscience is very young. Once scientists get more idea about the brain it will become even easier.

 

 

There is a problem inherent in unenlightened scientists looking for enlightenment. It is why we have the A-Bomb and climate change. All well intentioned people mind you.

 

Finding a way to end suffering might help the capitalists create a bunch of workers who will put up with all the pain a corporation can dish out. I say, if enlightenment exists, make it hard and keep it mysterious. Unenlightened people can live in the Dao, nothing special. Just have to get people to stop telling everyone what is right and what is wrong.

[kpodhayski]

3 hours ago, bax44 said:

 

Good post. If science and spirituality can converge-Ive always been of the opinion spirituality is basically a science experiment on yourself-brain change.. then why shouldnt that be a good thing? Imagine if there were ways to get the  ordinary person safely and quickly to a much different more pliable state of consciousness, Id see this as only a positive. Maybe this "stuff" has been hidden for too long and having it out there and being studied can only help our situation on this planet.

 

Me, I changed my brain back to how it was before everyone filled it with shit. To me enlightenment is an idea used to control people and sell books and methods.

[Spotless]

It does become obvious if you are discussing this stuff with some of the top hotshot scientific brains in these fields of research that they are nearly glued to the topic of "hardwear" - emerging physical mechanisms in the body (newly discovered nerve masses and layered matrix). They are also very much looking at LSD, Mushrooms and about two others. A great deal of human study on this has to be done on athletes and such at high end research in performance labs where the athletes sign off on things that federal funding will not allow.

 

Certainly at this point in human civilization Enlightened people would not be so naive as to actively go out and be certified by the insane (general population). And the insane would certainly not like certified Enlightened people.  The planet is not there yet - and when it is it will not be cut and dried but rather degrees like those in a black belt - but at that point the world will be unrecognizable from today's unconscious standpoint.

 

If the government did get involved certain lineages would attain preference, be modified for the masses and those certified would have to modify their message in order not to be persecuted.

 

[Marblehead]

Maybe aliens from another solar system will come and help us straighten things out.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

To say the "planet is not there yet" implies some kind of spiritual evolution. The original human culture, the San Bushmen, required all the males to do the enlightenment training. We already had our spiritual evolution that was 90% of human biological history.

 

The planet is going the direction of Mars and the promotion of aliens saving us is constant bombardment by CIA Freemason propaganda. So the rich elite scientists develop apocalyptic technology - to create a new Adam on Earth - a new Zion as the Matrix plan - based on Freemasonry - and so the aliens are our own reptilian cerebellums of our subconscious drives. Modern left-brain dominant humans are the aliens destroying Earth to make it be like Mars and the rich elite then say we need to flee to Mars. hilarious.

 

If you want to understand science - read The Religion of Technology by David F. Noble, professor.

[Michael Sternbach]

18 hours ago, Shanmugam said:

 

' But I do object to the idea of certifying spiritual teachers on the basis of brain scans and the like.'

 

The reason I think it should happen is because of the trouble I went through in identifying right ones from so many fake ones.. And there have been people who said things which resonated with me and my intuition told me that I have found the right Guru.. But I have found out later that they were simply repeating some insightful thoughts and pointers offered by other authentic gurus, and they were not able to help me any further. I think many people might face the same problem too.

 

In the state where I live in India, general public is always suspicious of anyone claiming to be a Guru, because many people who claimed to be a guru have sexually abused people in the past two decades. But this was not the case about 50-60 years ago. The problem with relying on our own judgments is that sometimes it could be extremely biased.

 

Also, when I think about what might happen in the future, I can see that when science discovers some interesting things about spirituality, a lot of things will change. If spiritual enlightenment is recognized as a possibility by the whole scientific community, it will increase the awareness about  spiritual paths and practices all over the world. We may find lessons about spiritual enlightenment in the biology text books of tenth grade students..(so far, they are only in history texbooks). Then governments in many countries may make it a requirement to obtain a license for making a claim of enlightenment and starting to teach other people. It may sound funny but future has all possibilities. 

 

But anyway, certifying enlightened people using brain scans is just one example of several outcomes of a scientific knowledge about enlightenment.

 

I understand where you come from. But I can't help thinking that you did learn something from those 'fake Gurus', even if the insights they conveyed to you were not their own. And couldn't it be that the most important lesson they taught you  was actually not to rely on 'Gurus', but to seek your own inner self?

 

A 'Guru' can only take you so far. And no neuroscience is ever going to change that.

[silent thunder]

the untruths and false teachings and outright lies I have encountered, believed and rejected in my life have served me as much as the truths...

 

Truth is served when untruth is revealed, so for me, there is no sense of wasted effort, or lost time, or ruined... anything in the teachings that came and have dropped off due to their nature.