A dinner, a heart ache, and wishful thinking.

[dontknwmucboutanythng]

I came back from dinner last night and happened to watch Anthony Bourdain’s show about Madagascar and Ethiopia.  In one part of the show, the train that Bourdain rode on stopped  at a food station after  a long ride,  all the passengers were hungry.  As the passengers ate,  there were rows of young children longingly looked on.  I could see the hunger in their eyes,  and could almost feel their hunger even through the TV.  Bourdain and his travelers  couldn’t stand to eat  and started handing pieces out to the children.  The children pushed/shoved to get near the food, hands reaching up, mouth-watering, and my heart ached again.  I often saw scenes like this and other worse form of suffering through various documentaries of many unfortunate countries.   A few tiny donations here and there have been less like a grain of sand on the beach.  Even the generosity of people with vast amount of resources like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet aren’t close.  Even if current evil/corrupted leaders of these nations somehow no longer in power,  the problem remain, as many similar others would take their places, on and on.  But then I came upon this web site.  I have been reading bit and pieces of this site and elsewhere.  I get the impression that there might be people who might have gain some sort of “supernatural” power on their quest for awakening, enlightenment, or some other supernatural goal.  Are you out there?  If you alone aren’t powerful enough, can you sense the others, and join forces to influence “those leaders” mind to improve their countries and ease suffering of the people?  Please don’t mention karma, and yes it’s wishful thinking.  How many being can be/will be liberated from suffering one at a time and how many millennia will it take?

[Gerard]

Hi there, 

 

Existence is suffering.

 

Extreme suffering ---> Hell realms

Intense suffering ---> Ghost (wandering around craving for material desire which they can't never possess) and Asura/Titan (always fighting, arguing and living belicose lives) realms

Moderate suffering ---> Human, animal

Relative suffering ---> Devas and Gods

 

Why not mentioning karma? It is the binding force of existence + Yin & Yang and their manifestations (4 Phases, 5E & Bagua).

 

You can't change or remove suffering no matter how hard you try. It's impossible.

 

What you can do is being generous and compassionate and wish the best for all sentient beings no matter where their location is: from Hell up to the most sublime Heavenly Plane.

 

Lust, greed, jealousy, anger and delusion are the main causes of rebirth and they all create karma.

 

I can't answer the last question, sorry.

 

Best

 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Okay.  No karma stuff from me.

 

You are wanting to change the world?  You are wanting to change the nature of the human animal?

 

It will never happen.

 

However, some of the suffering you spoke to can be decreased.  But that would require educating the people.  The powerful of the world don't want to do that because it would put their power in jeopardy.

 

Jesus and Buddha realized that the nature of man cannot be changed from the outside.  There will always be "the poor" and "the suffering".  

 

[qicat]

12 hours ago, dontknwmucboutanythng said:

get the impression that there might be people who might have gain some sort of “supernatural” power on their quest for awakening, enlightenment, or some other supernatural goal.  Are you out there?  If you alone aren’t powerful enough, can you sense the others, and join forces to influence “those leaders” mind to improve their countries and ease suffering of the people?  Please don’t mention karma, and yes it’s wishful thinking.  How many being can be/will be liberated from suffering one at a time and how many millennia will it take?

 

hahaha, you sound SOOO MUCH LIKE ME. In April, when nuke "crisis" was kind of heating up, I was telling my Sifu the same thing. "If you guys are so powerful, with all those lineages, how come you cannot connect to them  and sidetrack them so they don't destroy the Earth" ( and whole speech like yours, "blah blah blah" on high horse).

 

And he looks at me and says,  "How do you know they don't? Look, the things heat up and went nowhere...right? Do you have 100% confidence nothing is being done?"

 

the trick is to change yourself. And world will change. But it is extremely painful. it is easier to go around and point things to others ( especially if you have real gifts on this). It is much much harder to have discipline to work on yourself. Ask me how I know...

 

 

 

[cold]

An old man walking along a beach with a youngster encountered someone returning beached starfish to the sea, the youngster overwhelmed and unsure questioned why?

That's how nature works sometimes was the reply.

The person returning the fish to the sea is reducing some suffering, and it mattered.

Every kindness every loving gesture matters!

[Marblehead]

My Tzujan response;

 

The starfish was beached because it was dying and could no longer maintain itself against the current washing it to the beach.  By returning it to the water was only prolonging the inevitable process of dying.

 

 

[cold]

31 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

My Tzujan response;

 

The starfish was beached because it was dying and could no longer maintain itself against the current washing it to the beach.  By returning it to the water was only prolonging the inevitable process of dying.

 

 

 

My contrarian response is my continuing to breathe and eat is only prolonging the inevitable process of dying... the choice of what air I breathe (clean deep forest versus smog), and eat (real food versus processed food) effect my longevity or quantity of life. But I'm gonna die dag nabbit!

 

Ignoring suffering I can easily and almost uniquely reduce in turn reduces the quality of my life. Spying a turtle crossing a busy road and aiding it (or a little or old person a handicap person etc.) in navigating a potentially hazard(s) improves the quality of my life. If not I who? and not on my watch, are two maxims that guide my behavior from time to time.

 

Somehow I just cant see you (Marblehead) failing to aid a damsel in distress, in particular one swept up in a rip current whilst wearing a bikini. Even though she could no longer maintain herself against the current.

Please correct me on that one if I'm wrong.

[thelerner]

Hoping for supernatural help from advanced beings seems.. low odds.  Though there are times to take that bet.

 

Better to do something.  Through Heifer.org I'm technically giving out a flock of chickens to a family every month.   Eggs for nutrition, selling and making more little chickens.  Hopefully it helps some groups.  Locally each month we make lunch bags for the homeless. 

Considering the needs of the world, its not much, but you do what you can, one starfish at a time. 

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, cold said:

 

My contrarian response is ...

I expected a rebuttal.  You done good.

 

Yes, we must help where we think our help will make life better for others.

 

[qicat]

48 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Hoping for supernatural help from advanced beings seems.. low odds.  Though there are times to take that bet.

 

Better to do something.  Through Heifer.org I'm technically giving out a flock of chickens to a family every month.   Eggs for nutrition, selling and making more little chickens.  Hopefully it helps some groups.  Locally each month we make lunch bags for the homeless. 

Considering the needs of the world, its not much, but you do what you can, one starfish at a time. 

 

 i do kiva stuff. 58 countries so far...sometimes I do have my doubts as I don't give money freely away, but it is a lending thing, but without access to capital those women would not have a chance to even start a business. However, I see a lot of instability and non- sustainability in the projects they ask money for. I was surprised though I was able to lend in China and USA, as I thought those countries would not be a third world category...I am still hunting for Burma projects, but Kiva does not operate there. I have heard it is the poorest one in the world. 

[Gerard]

15 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Okay.  No karma stuff from me.

 

 

Hey friend,

 

That's the beauty of the Internet, subject last like this can be discussed quickly rather than having to travel to a Buddhist hermitage thousands of km away to hear about it from a monk.

 

So, from your point of view/experience:

 

1. What does determine rebirth?

 

2. What causes someone being reborn in this social environment?

 

https://goo.gl/images/TWphVJ

 

Pretty much like devas living in the human plane. Lessened suffering. 

 

As opposed to this one:

 

https://goo.gl/images/dkBRTz

 

Obviously sub-human conditions. Increased suffering. 

 

 

3. From our perspective, how come we are having discussions like this amongst us whereas if you were travelling in a city train and ask one the passengers about it they would think you are a nut job or better, they would have no interest or whatsoever about discussing whether karma is real or not and any steps that should be taken in order to tackle it; ie I'm determined to attend a 4-week meditation retreat and find out if rebirth and karma are for real or simply man-made.

 

Regards.

 

 

Edited June 20, 2017 by Gerard

[rene]

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I expected a rebuttal.  You done good.

 

Yes, we must help where we think our help will make life better for others.

 

Here's a rebuttal for that:

 

Lord, save me from those with good intentions who think they know what's better for me than I do. Amen.

[dontknwmucboutanythng]

Yes,  I have been doing a number of conventional charities type and of course praying for daily.  But it seems conventional methods (even on very large scale) don't go very far or lasting, unless a country get very lucky with regime change to a benevolent care for the people regime.  Hence my wishful thinking about supernatural mean.  Anyway,  when I wrote about "no karma", I just didn't want to hear something along the line that they are in that situation because of bad actions in previous life, whether "karma" is real or not, may be lessen the penalty a bit, perhaps 1/2 a meal a day, instead of none. So sorry, I think I am rambling.

[rene]

I think you are doing fine. It's not possible, imo, to know what outcomes our efforts may have. Individually, what flows through us may have limited radius - but as one ripple joins with others, that is where large scale impact might occur. That requires taking care of 'home' first - before spreading too thin globally...decreasing ripple's effectiveness. Sorry that was unclear. Perhaps someone else can explain it better.

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

1. What does determine rebirth?

I do not hold to the concept of rebirth.  I have not seen any supportable evidence that anything like that exists.

 

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

2. What causes someone being reborn in this social environment?

What causes a weed to grow in my flower bed?  Shit happens.

 

7 hours ago, Gerard said:

 

3. From our perspective, how come we are having discussions like this amongst us whereas if you were travelling in a city train and ask one the passengers about it they would think you are a nut job or better, they would have no interest or whatsoever about discussing whether karma is real or not and any steps that should be taken in order to tackle it; ie I'm determined to attend a 4-week meditation retreat and find out if rebirth and karma are for real or simply man-made.

 

Regards.

 

 

All religions are creations from the mind of man.  They are primarily for the purpose of controlling to people.  (Be good and you go to Heaven; be bad and you go to Hell.  Scary stuff!.)  Not much different from Buddhism:  Be good and your next life will be better; be bad and your next life will be worse.

 

 

[Stosh]

Go ahead and fix it. 

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Stosh said:

Go ahead and fix it. 

There's nothing to fix.  Some people find support from the concepts.

 

[Stosh]

11 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

There's nothing to fix.  Some people find support from the concepts.

 

It was my address to the Op complaining,you may be responding to. It seems to lay the miseries of the world at the feet of others. My point is that mozt of us attend to that which is within our scope and cant fix that which is outside of it. You may be right , that the world balances light with the dark. But , Would it not render all action futile? and if so, there would be no call for virtue, no valid support for anything. 

[Marblehead]

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

It was my address to the Op complaining,you may be responding to. It seems to lay the miseries of the world at the feet of others. My point is that mozt of us attend to that which is within our scope and cant fix that which is outside of it. You may be right , that the world balances light with the dark. But , Would it not render all action futile? and if so, there would be no call for virtue, no valid support for anything. 

Yeah, there needs be a purpose for being nice.  Something to gain by it.

 

Yes, with courage and abilities we attend to those things we can attend to.  We sometimes ask for help or even pay for help.  Others pray for help as they know not where else to turn.

 

Once again, in the long term, nothing matters.  But in the short term everything matters.

 

[doc benway]

On 6/19/2017 at 11:32 AM, cold said:

An old man walking along a beach with a youngster encountered someone returning beached starfish to the sea, the youngster overwhelmed and unsure questioned why?

That's how nature works sometimes was the reply.

The person returning the fish to the sea is reducing some suffering, and it mattered.

Every kindness every loving gesture matters!

 

On 6/19/2017 at 11:41 AM, Marblehead said:

My Tzujan response;

 

The starfish was beached because it was dying and could no longer maintain itself against the current washing it to the beach.  By returning it to the water was only prolonging the inevitable process of dying.

 

 

 

Sometimes I ponder the nature of choice and who is doing the choosing.

Is not the decision to help the starfish simply the universe itself deciding it was not the starfish's time to die?

 

We have this illusion that the verbal formations in our head cause our choices and our deeds to somehow be other than the very choices and deeds of the universe. What are we if not the very manifestation of it? The eyes and fingers of the universe.

 

There is a fine line between using such an idea as justification for all sorts of negative and selfish activity. On the other hand, if we act with sincerity, we are nothing more or less than Dao itself dancing its dance.

[doc benway]

On 6/20/2017 at 6:24 AM, Marblehead said:

All religions are creations from the mind of man.  They are primarily for the purpose of controlling to people.  (Be good and you go to Heaven; be bad and you go to Hell.  Scary stuff!.)  Not much different from Buddhism:  Be good and your next life will be better; be bad and your next life will be worse.

 

 

 

While all religions are certainly created by people, I think the primary purpose was (and is) to explain life's mysteries and provide support during difficult times. The control piece comes later as the religion becomes institutionalized and politicized. Not sure the distinction means much but I thought it worth a mention. 

[doc benway]

On 6/18/2017 at 11:09 PM, dontknwmucboutanythng said:

I came back from dinner last night and happened to watch Anthony Bourdain’s show about Madagascar and Ethiopia.  In one part of the show, the train that Bourdain rode on stopped  at a food station after  a long ride,  all the passengers were hungry.  As the passengers ate,  there were rows of young children longingly looked on.  I could see the hunger in their eyes,  and could almost feel their hunger even through the TV.  Bourdain and his travelers  couldn’t stand to eat  and started handing pieces out to the children.  The children pushed/shoved to get near the food, hands reaching up, mouth-watering, and my heart ached again.  I often saw scenes like this and other worse form of suffering through various documentaries of many unfortunate countries.   A few tiny donations here and there have been less like a grain of sand on the beach.  Even the generosity of people with vast amount of resources like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet aren’t close.  Even if current evil/corrupted leaders of these nations somehow no longer in power,  the problem remain, as many similar others would take their places, on and on.  But then I came upon this web site.  I have been reading bit and pieces of this site and elsewhere.  I get the impression that there might be people who might have gain some sort of “supernatural” power on their quest for awakening, enlightenment, or some other supernatural goal.  Are you out there?  If you alone aren’t powerful enough, can you sense the others, and join forces to influence “those leaders” mind to improve their countries and ease suffering of the people?  Please don’t mention karma, and yes it’s wishful thinking.  How many being can be/will be liberated from suffering one at a time and how many millennia will it take?

 

A part of spiritual growth is awakening to our connection with others and feeling their pain.

It can be overwhelming. A part of my practice is to visualize other people and try to see and feel their challenges. 

Always best to start with people closest to you and eventually extend the practice to people you don't get on with. 

 

It's easy and convenient for us to imagine that there are those out there with supernatural powers who can fix our problems, fix others' problems, perform magic, and defeat all challengers. Maybe it exists, maybe it doesn't but it's pretty obvious that they have little or no impact in most of our lives, other than in our imagination. The magic is that very feeling in you - the empathy and desire to help. Even more magical is when you actually go out and do something about it. 

 

So what I'm saying is that if we want to make changes in the world we need to make them ourselves.

And the place to start, as others have pointed out, is at home - with ourselves and our relationships to those closest to us.

How many of us meditate on compassion for all sentient beings and never call our mother or have unresolved issues with our partners, children, or employees...?

 

It's healthy to be aware that there is enormous suffering so long as our response to it moves us in a positive direction.

It's healthy to feel sadness and cry about it from time to time but if we find ourselves crying all day long, that's a problem.

It should generate spontaneous and genuine feelings of gratitude, generosity, and compassion.

That is something we can build on.

 

Edited to add:

My teacher tells a funny story about a practitioner who trains for years, goes through all of the preparation, masters all of the practices but has unresolved issues with their mother. On that day when they are on the cusp of achieving complete enlightenment, who will be waiting for them but their mother, wagging her finger saying "Uh,uh,uh. You? You're not ready yet!

 

 

 

Edited June 27, 2017 by steve

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, steve said:

Sometimes I ponder the nature of choice and who is doing the choosing.

Is not the decision to help the starfish simply the universe itself deciding it was not the starfish's time to die?

 

We have this illusion that the verbal formations in our head cause our choices and our deeds to somehow be other than the very choices and deeds of the universe. What are we if not the very manifestation of it? The eyes and fingers of the universe.

 

There is a fine line between using such an idea as justification for all sorts of negative and selfish activity. On the other hand, if we act with sincerity, we are nothing more or less than Dao itself dancing its dance.

Yeah, bottom line, we humans are going to do what we think is right (most of the time).  Putting the starfish back in the water (where it belongs, in our opinion) was the right thing to do.  (10 out of every 10 starfish will die.)

 

And the universe doesn't seem to care.

 

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, steve said:

 

While all religions are certainly created by people, I think the primary purpose was (and is) to explain life's mysteries and provide support during difficult times. The control piece comes later as the religion becomes institutionalized and politicized. Not sure the distinction means much but I thought it worth a mention. 

Okay.  I'll give that one to you without argument.

 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, bottom line, we humans are going to do what we think is right (most of the time).  Putting the starfish back in the water (where it belongs, in our opinion) was the right thing to do.  (10 out of every 10 starfish will die.)

 

And the universe doesn't seem to care.

 

 

I care... you care (presumably)....

The universe cares.