About morons

[Lois]

I learned a terrible fact. In Germany (and certainly in other developed countries), special services that deal with morons do so that they give birth to children. Ironically, they have normal children. And then these children are selected and given to those who stand in line, wishing to adopt other people's children. In general, any normal person should be obvious that this practice is immoral.

[liminal_luke]

The word "moron" has a very strong negative connotation that I don`t think you intend.  You`d probably get more conversation about this topic if it`s possible to say "developmentally disabled" instead.  I think that`s the group you mean?  

[Lois]

10 hours ago, liminal_luke said:

The word "moron" has a very strong negative connotation that I don`t think you intend.  You`d probably get more conversation about this topic if it`s possible to say "developmentally disabled" instead.  I think that`s the group you mean?  

 

You are known for such a disease?

[Edward M]

Someone pinch me, am i dreaming or is this real? 

[Marblehead]

Well, it's within the realm of Dao.  I don't know how valuable the discussion might become though.

 

[Brian]

You are speaking (based on that photo) about Down syndrome, Lois, and I can only assume you have never actually known someone with Down syndrome.

 

Please stop now.

 

I have no problem with you discussing governments run amok but please do not drag developmentally disadvantaged people into your dialog.

[rene]

10 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, it's within the realm of Dao.  I don't know how valuable the discussion might become though.

 

 

The value might be a reminder to us that language differences sometimes do not reflect meaning, intent or heart; and a reminder to Lois that being very clear, using as many words as necessary to convey meaning, is the best course between cultures.

 

Lois, what you are describing is very sad, indeed. Is this a wide-spread practice throughout Germany? In the US, mentally handicapped individuals were sterilized...but that was a long time ago.

[Bodhicitta]

Let us please avoid PC 'virtue' - the word simply means in root and dictionary sense 'a foolish or stupid person'.

[Daeluin]

Clubfoot-Hunchback-No-lips talked to Duke Ling of Wei. Duke Ling was so delighted with him that when he saw normal people, their necks appeared thin and scraggy. Jug-Jar-Big-goiter talked to Duke Huan of Chi. Duke Huan was so delighted with him that when he saw normal people, he too thought their necks were thin scraggy. So when goodness shines forth, the outward appearances are forgotten. Men do not forget what ought to be forgotten, but forget what ought not be forgotten. This is forgetfulness indeed!

 

Therefore, the sage lets everything pass before his mind. To him learning is something added, conventions are like glue, morality is a bond, and skills are for trade. The sage does not make plans, so what use has he for learning? He does not make divisions, so what use has he for glue? He lacks nothing, so what use has he for morality? He has nothing to sell, so what use has he for trade? His not needing these four things is a gift from heaven. This gift is his heavenly food.

 

Since he is fed by heaven, what use has he for men? He has the appearance of a man but not the desires of a man. He has the appearance of a man, so he associates with men. He does not have the desires of a man, so he is not concerned with right or wrong. How infinitely small is that which makes him a man! How infinitely great is that which makes him perfect in heaven!

 

Hui Tsu asked Chuang Tsu, "Can a man really live without desire?"

 

"Yes," said Chuang Tsu.

 

"But," said Hui Tsu, "if a man has no desire, how can you call him a man?"

 

Chuang Tsu said, "Tao gives him his appearance, and heaven gives him his body. Why should he not be called a man?"

 

Hui Tsu said, "Since he is called a man, how can he be without desire?"

 

Chuang Tsu said, "That is not what I mean by desire. When I say he has no desire I mean that he does not disturb his inner well-being with likes and dislikes. He accepts things as they are and does not try to improve upon them."

 

Hui Tsu said, "If a man does not try to improve upon the way things are, how does he survive?"

 

Chuang Tsu said, "Tao gives him his appearance. Heaven gives him his body. He does not disturb his inner well-being with likes and dislikes. At present you use all your vital energy on external things and wear out your spirit. You lean against a tree and mutter, collapse upon a rotten stump and fall asleep. Your body is a gift from heaven, yet you use it to babble and jabber about 'hardness' and 'whiteness'!"

 

Chuang Tsu

5 Signs of Full Virtue

tl Feng/English

[Starjumper]

17 hours ago, Lois said:

I learned a terrible fact. In Germany (and certainly in other developed countries), special services that deal with morons do so that they give birth to children. Ironically, they have normal children. And then these children are selected and given to those who stand in line, wishing to adopt other people's children. In general, any normal person should be obvious that this practice is immoral.

 

Well there are two sides to every story, isn't there?  Germany and the rest of Europe is suffering greatly from below sustainable level reproduction rates (part of a big plan) which is one reason they need to import new bodies from the Middle East.  Producing and adopting normal babies made in Germany is a way to fight this trend.  So it is not immoral.

[Daeluin]

I think it depends on how the babies are "produced." What type of choices are involved?

 

And... it isn't as though humans are at risk of dying off. In many parts of the world overpopulation is quite the thing. It is natural for this to generally influence the desire to reproduce.

[Lois]

2 hours ago, WuDao said:

 

 

 

Lois, what you are describing is very sad, indeed. Is this a wide-spread practice throughout Germany? In the US, mentally handicapped individuals were sterilized...but that was a long time ago.

 

 

I know that this is in western Germany. There is no information about East Germany.

[Lois]

3 hours ago, Brian said:

You are speaking (based on that photo) about Down syndrome, Lois, and I can only assume you have never actually known someone with Down syndrome.

 

Please stop now.

 

I have no problem with you discussing governments run amok but please do not drag developmentally disadvantaged people into your dialog.

 

 

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C&edit-text=

 

I could not find the information in English

[Brian]

15 minutes ago, Lois said:

 

 

https://translate.google.de/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=ru&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fru.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2F%D0%94%D0%B5%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C&edit-text=

 

I could not find the information in English

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2016/en#/F70

 

So, tell us more about this government program.  How are these people being identified?  How is the government making it so that they that they give birth?  At what level of mental capacity should someone be prevented from having babies?

 

These are legitimate questions, I think -- and I think they shine a light on the idea of government as central decision-maker.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Brian

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Lois said:

 

 

I know that this is in western Germany. There is no information about East Germany.

 

 

I'll think you'll find it's all one country now.

 

 

[rene]

19 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

I'll think you'll find it's all one country now.

 

 

I bet Lois knows that. 

Might be records weren't available, or current reporting mechanisms aren't yet in place nationwide.

[Lois]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

http://apps.who.int/classifications/icd10/browse/2016/en#/F70

 

So, tell us more about this government program.  How are these people being identified?  How is the government making it so that they that they give birth?  At what level of mental capacity should someone be prevented from having babies?

 

These are legitimate questions, I think -- and I think they shine a light on the idea of government as central decision-maker.

 

 

I do not know that. I know the very fact. This was told by an employee of a similar service to my acquaintance.

[Brian]

31 minutes ago, Lois said:

 

 

I do not know that. I know the very fact. This was told by an employee of a similar service to my acquaintance.

I think we would need to know more about such a program, although I agree that it is troubling.

 

If it is allowing special populations to experience being parents and then providing a safety net to step in if they are unable to care for those children, perhaps it is not so bad.

 

I suspect, as do you, that it is little more than a breeding program to produce "desirable" babies for adoption -- a government baby-mill to pop out "profitable" children for financially successful and good-hearted citizens who believe they are doing a good thing.

 

For what it is worth, many people in the category of developmental ability you identified are able to be good and loving parents, especially with a little guidance and support.  They may not be much help with homework beyond second or third grade but they may be very loving and gentle parents.  Go much deeper into the spectrum of developmental disability, though, and the likelihood of tragedy and heartache becomes very high.

 

There are some difficult ethical questions in this area.

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

I'll think you'll find it's all one country now.

 

 

Yeah, they even renamed it Gerislamanabad.

[Apech]

42 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, they even renamed it Gerislamanabad.

 

 

Oh come on.

[Marblehead]

Just now, Apech said:

 

 

Oh come on.

Really.  I read it on the internet so it must be true.

 

 

[liminal_luke]

4 hours ago, Brian said:

 

There are some difficult ethical questions in this area.

 

For sure.

 

If developmentally disabled women are encouraged to get pregnant and give birth so some government agency can make money by selling off the resulting infants, well, that´s pretty bad.  On the other hand, should we really be in the business of telling people they can´t have sex?  And if that sex results in babies that the parents are not able to care for, what then?

 

Perhaps the best case scenario is the one that Brian alludes to: that higher functioning developmentally disabled people are allowed to become not hindered from becoming parents and given extra support.  

 

I read a story once where the parent of a developmentally disabled child was asked if she would rather have had a child with normal intellectual capacity.  She said that if by some miracle all the people with down´s syndrome were to disappear from the earth, that that would be a loss for humankind.  While I wouldn´t wish any medical malady on any person (or family), her words ring true for me.

Edited June 21, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Apech]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Really.  I read it on the internet so it must be true.

 

 

 

 

You know very well its called Germistan!

[liminal_luke]

12 hours ago, Lois said:

 

You are known for such a disease?

 

For being developmentally disabled? No.  For being moronic?  I`ve had my moments. 

[26sol]

still learned sth from this thread:this forum is nazi tolerant