Tai Chi is a Bastardization of Daoism

[kpodhayski]

All these teachers wanting you to become healthier, more powerful, or magical; what sage of the Dao has ever taught that?

 

If you enjoy Tai chi, that is fine, but it is no different than playing the flute or washing the dishes in regard to the Dao.

 

Be content with what you have;
rejoice in the way things are.
When you realize there is nothing lacking,
the whole world belongs to you.

[kpodhayski]

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I like you. I really do. You make me laugh. Very few people do.

 

To answer your first question about what sage of the Tao ever taught those things: quite a few of them.  

 

Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu taught Tai Chi? Ha!

 

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

To answer your second line, you are absolutely correct! You are absolutely wrong, too! You are both of them and neither! This makes absolute sense when you grok the Tao. 

 

This is a bastardization of Daoism as well; "You are right and you are wrong". Words croaked by a frog in a well.

 

If I murder a man for no good reason would you call that Daoism?

 

People think they are masters of the Dao when they say things like this, but then go on to say; "I am right, Tai Chi majil is fer realz!"

 

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

I am not being sarcastic or a troll. I'm very serious. Cheers. 

It is your seriousness that frightens me.

[kpodhayski]

9 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

You said they (Laozi and Zhaungzi) did, not me. But you also seem to think Taiji and Taijiquan are the same thing. Might want to check that.

 

Child! Picking over words when the intent was clear. Fight like a man!

 

The term Taiji and its other spelling T'ai chi (using Wade–Giles as opposed to Pinyin) are most commonly used in the West to refer to Taijiquan (or T'ai chi ch'uan, 太極拳), an internal martial art, Chinese meditation system and health practice

 

9 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

The Tao is the Tao, and expresses itself in all things, especially duality and seeming contradictions.

 

Murdering a man--how is that the Tao? How is it not the Tao? Notice I say Tao and not Taoism. I'll let you sit on that for a while.

 

All things express the Dao but all things are not Daoism.

 

My post stated that tai chi is not Daosim. I did not say it did not express the Dao.

 

Stay focused! You are distracted by your desire to win!

 

9 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

 

If I frighten you, I am probably holding the mirror too close to you. 

 

Welcome to TDB. 

 

You are a monkey repeating dead phrases.

 

You are a muddy pool, there is no way I could see my reflection in you.

 

Maybe you can answer this question? What is lacking in you that you feel need to become a Tai Chi master?

 

 

[Marblehead]

May I join in?  Of course I can.

 

There are three legends regarding the origin of Tai Chi and all three speak to a time hundreds of years after the life of both Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

Chuang Tzu did teach empty-minded meditation and possible was its originator.

 

 

[Marblehead]

2 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I said none of those things.  You are putting words in my mouth and not clarifying. I also never called you any names. I never said I was a master. I am not even trying to win, nor do I feel any lack. Are we even having the same conversation? I think not, so I'm going to just have fun.

 

Marblehead, my friend, you don't need to ask permission. This is an open forum. People are free to say what they will, no matter how true or silly it is, and others will respond and read it however they choose to do so. 

 

 

You actually gave me a chuckle.  Regarding winning, yes, I do feel a need to win if one of my buttons has been pushed.

 

And it is true, I have been put on ignore by a few members.  But almost always, because I am so over-bearing, they end u having to take me back off.

 

I think it is unfair to try to directly link Tai Chi with Philosophical Daoism.  But it is compatible with Daoist philosophy.

 

 

[Chang]

This topics heading is rather antagonistic “Tai Chi is a Bastardization of Daoism” but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Tai Chi is certainly classed as a Taoist Martial art but it could equally be called an Internal or soft martial art.

I consider myself a Philosophical Taoist and have practiced Tai Chi for twenty five years. I consider my practice to be part and parcel of my Taoist discipline but kpodhaski is quite correct when he states that Tai Chi would have been unknown to Taoists of the classical era. Associated practices such as Tao Yin would have been familiar however.

Taoist is a system of constant change and growth and so, although it is a relative newcomer to Taoism I am of the opinion that it fits perfectly into the Taoist scheme of things. It really does not matter to the Tao what others think and so I shall not worry myself about that either.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Chang

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

To clarify Marblehead, the top paragraph was addressing the original poster. The second paragraph was specific for you.

Yeah, I know.  But it gave me a chuckle so I felt the need to speak to it.

 

[kpodhayski]

5 minutes ago, Chang said:

This topics heading is rather antagonistic “Tai Chi is a Bastardization of Daoism” but everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Tai Chi is certainly classed as a Taoist Martial art but it could equally be called an Internal or soft martial art.

I consider myself a Philosophical Taoist and have practiced Tai Chi for twenty five years. I consider my practice to be part and parcel of my Taoist discipline but kpodhaski is quite correct when he states that Tai Chi would have been unknown to Taoists of the classical era. Associated practices such as Tao Yin would have been familiar however.

Taoist is a system of constant change and growth and so, although it is a relative newcomer to Taoism I am of the opinion that it fits perfectly into the Taoist scheme of things. It really does not matter to the Tao what others think and so I shall not worry myself about that either.

 

In my long life I have only seen humans practicing Tai Chi.

The crows do not do it, the tress do not do it.

Everything else practices Wu Wei.

 

Is Taoism a system? No, I it is a realization.

 

The Dao exists like gravity exists. Gravitists would not practice at gravity. Gravity is explained to them and so they can describe it, and its laws, to others. Once they see how it works, they practice gravitism by not walking off the edge of a cliff. Living with in the bounds of gravity, keeps us safe.

 

Understanding gravity gives us the ability to fly in space, but flying in space is a bastardization of gravitism.

 

You should worry about the Dao like you worry about falling off a cliff. Gravity does not care about you like the Dao does not care about you, so you need to respect it or your relatives will be crying over your dead body at the bottom of a cliff.

 

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

Tai Chi is a bastardization of Taoism

 

 

   Tai chi isn't supposed to represent Taoism so it can't be a bastardization of it.

 

The main point you must agree to is that Taoism was originally, and still is, a warrior tradition.  WARRIOR tradition.  The spiritual path of Nei Kung is a spiritual path of the warrior.  People generally cultivate by practicing martial arts and their derivatives.

 

Tai chi isn't Taoism but if you learn it from a real master you find that it teaches you the Way of Taoism at a subconscious level, some say at a cellular level.  I personally feel it is much better to learn the principles of Taoism via a physical/mental practice that can train your way of dealing with the world rather than some philospher flapping his jaw about it.

 

I did some sword practice left handed yesterday and now my left wrist hurts.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Starjumper

[Chang]

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

 

In my long life I have only seen humans practicing Tai Chi.

The crows do not do it, the tress do not do it.

Everything else practices Wu Wei.

.

You appear somewhat lost and rambling here. You are quite correct that you have only seen humans practicing Tai Chi. The Tai Chi Form does two things. Firstly It re educates us in correct stance, posture and movement, secondly it shows us a series of possibilities in martial arts. In other words it provides a method of training.

 

As regards "Everything else practices Wu Wei". Well the natural world may naturally practice Wu Wei but we humans have moved away from what is natural, hence taoisms urge for us to return to the state of the uncarved block.

 

Quote

 

Is Taoism a system? No, I it is a realization.

 

The Dao exists like gravity exists. Gravitists would not practice at gravity. Gravity is explained to them and so they can describe it, and its laws, to others. Once they see how it works, they practice gravitism by not walking off the edge of a cliff. Living with in the bounds of gravity, keeps us safe.

 

Understanding gravity gives us the ability to fly in space, but flying in space is a bastardization of gravitism.

 

You should worry about the Dao like you worry about falling off a cliff. Gravity does not care about you like the Dao does not care about you, so you need to respect it or your relatives will be crying over your dead body at the bottom of a cliff.

 

 

You remind me of the man who stands on a mountain and mumbles "Are This". You may well have reached a state of attainment but I rather doubt it. I for one am still working towards spiritual and physical improvement.

 

Taoism is a path and translates to many things, one of them being "The Way" Taoism and Tai Chi (as one of many Taoist Arts I practice) is my path to self realisation.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Chang

[kpodhayski]

17 minutes ago, Chang said:

.

You appear somewhat lost and rambling here. You are quite correct that you have only seen humans practicing Tai Chi. The Tai Chi Form does two things. Firstly It re educates us in correct stance, posture and movement, secondly it shows us a series of possibilities in martial arts. In other words it provides a method of training.

 

As regards "Everything else practices Wu Wei". Well the natural world may naturally practice Wu Wei but we humans have moved away from what is natural, hence taoisms urge for us to return to the state of the uncarved block.

 

Lost and rambling! Good! I am Han Shan's illegitimate son.

 

Tai Chi looks is a master class in the sculpting of uncarved blocks. That is what I am saying.

 

17 minutes ago, Chang said:

 

You remind me of the man who stands on a mountain and mumbles "Are This". You may well have reached a state of attainment but I rather doubt it. I for one am still working towards spiritual and physical improvement.

 

Taoism is a path and translates to many things, one of them being "The Way" Taoism and Tai Chi (as one of many Taoist Arts I practice) is my path to self realisation.

 

There is no attainment, you should know this by now. This is nothing complicated, just drop everything, even Tai Chi. There are no Daoist arts. The only method is stopping. Chuang TZu says it simply:

"I have heard of letting the world be, and exercising forbearance; I have not heard of governing the world. Letting be is from the fear that men, (when interfered with), will carry their nature beyond its normal condition; exercising forbearance is from the fear that men, (when not so dealt with), will alter the characteristics of their nature. When all men do not carry their nature beyond its normal condition, nor alter its characteristics, the good government of the world is secured."

 

and

 

"Hung Mung said, 'Ah! your mind (needs to be) nourished. Do you only take the position of doing nothing, and things will of themselves become transformed. Neglect your body; cast out from you your power of hearing and sight; forget what you have in common with things; cultivate a grand similarity with the chaos of the plastic ether; unloose your mind; set your spirit free; be still as if you had no soul. Of all the multitude of things every one returns to its root. Every one returns to its root, and does not know (that it is doing so). They all are as in the state of chaos, and during all their existence they do not leave it. If they knew (that they were returning to their root), they would be (consciously) leaving it. They do not ask its name; they do not seek to spy out their nature; and thus it is that things come to life of themselves.'"

 

 

[Daeluin]

This has to do with the principle of fire and the choice of taking creation into our own hands.

 

Once this has been done, patterns are established and momentums are changed.

 

We can return to the mysterious and not do anything, yet that momentum remains.

 

Eventually, water path or fire path, integrating the fire becomes a natural part of the process.

 

This naturally works out the kinks in the momentum, the bent becomes straight, and destiny resolves.

 

It feels to me that starting with water allows for greater flow, and working with fire without enough water can lead to greater linearity and extremes, as the fire is unable to be contained.

 

I feel the key is in keeping the fire internalized, and avoiding presumption externally, and it can be very difficult to accomplish this.

 

For example the OP is using external fire to express and articulate his desire for others to see a particular perspective.

 

Taijiquan and other internal arts can be used as tools to cultivate water and fire within a balanced framework.

 

It may appear artificial, but is no more artificial than living under a roof and building fires to keep warm.

 

So long as we are raised and expected to solely live within artificiality, I believe that it may also be important for us to develop tools by which we can use to learn to dissolve the artificiality that has been self-created within. Within our selves and within society.

 

Even though we may appear to presume to take actions into our own hands, the proper true use of the development of internal fire cannot be cultivated without being completely empty and in harmony with dao.

 

It forms a type of seal upon creative presumption, but must too rest upon the flow of water, as dictated by the center, as the three become one.

 

I believe it is this type of practice that reaches the other extreme of naturalness and works toward harmony by naturally helping creation return to the dao.

[kpodhayski]

20 minutes ago, Daeluin said:

For example the OP is using external fire to express and articulate his desire for others to see a particular perspective.

 

 

Yes, a raging forest fire to burn down their stupidity and make them run and jump in a lake of Yin.

 

Would these people cry when it is all gone? That would be foolish.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Lost and rambling! Good! I am Han Shan's illegitimate son.

 

Like.

 

Quote

Tai Chi looks is a master class in the sculpting of uncarved blocks. That is what I am saying.

 

You could say that, yes.  However I think one aspect of human nature that is being overlooked is the desire to improve one's self simply for the sake of feeling better, particularly when they get old.  Competition is part of the way the universe works too, even to the point of chemical reactions competing for different chemicals, although they do it in a wu wei kinda way.  Competition isn't just human nature, it's the law of all life, built into the bedwork, and if someone is going to compete in the world (something overcrowding forces on us) then it is simply being effective to want to be better or good at something.  Not to mention, people do tai chi for FUN, oops, I mentioned it.

 

So having fun, competing, dancing, self improvement, all part of the WAY.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

What about this, a person can master an art and yet still be an uncarved block in other walks of life?  Kind of half assed?  Like one side is carved and the other side is uncarved?

 

Or as it says in the tai chi classics:  "One must first study the forms in order to eventually arrive at the formless.

[flowing hands]

Although one might say that other living things practice Dao without knowing it, so do humans. As other life learns to live and to be at one with the processes of nature, which it needs to survive, people live, practice Tai Ji and the like to help them have a better understanding of themselves and the world around them. Dao cannot be defined just as this and not that. Tai Ji reflects the soft and yielding principles of nature, same as the shaman copies the movements of animals to understand those animals better. Tai ji is not the Dao and the Dao is not Tai Ji, but just a process within the way.

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, flowing hands said:

Although one might say that other living things practice Dao without knowing it, so do humans. As other life learns to live and to be at one with the processes of nature, which it needs to survive, people live, practice Tai Ji and the like to help them have a better understanding of themselves and the world around them. Dao cannot be defined just as this and not that. Tai Ji reflects the soft and yielding principles of nature, same as the shaman copies the movements of animals to understand those animals better. Tai ji is not the Dao and the Dao is not Tai Ji, but just a process within the way.

 

There is a quote - or several quotes I have compiled on my blog - but the Taoist alchemy training states indeed that Undivided Tao is yin-yang unified. Or another quote states the Tai Chi at rest is yin-yang not separated. Another one says that the shen is "movement in non-doing" - so what does that mean? Actually science has revealed the secret for us.

 

So as I documented in my free pdf - the Wu Chi symbol was actually created later than the Tai Chi symbol - the Wu Chi symbol is from the Song Dynasty. https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

People learn - as WEsterners and WEsternized Easterners - we learn stuff still mainly by rote from "experts" and so don't dig enough to research enough.

 

So I kept digging. For example a common teaching is that Qi is from the symbol of rice or something. In fact the oldest symbol of Qi is from fire under water creating steam as qi. Zhou Dynasty.

 

So actually this also means shen under jing creates qi. And that is also your secret of why the Dao is the Taichi - because when the shen is "turned around" this has a hidden momentum called "jingqi" or "yuan qi" - this is proven by science - but only in quantum relativity! It is called "heavy" light - or the spin of light - the spin charge as reverse entropy. So it is the Emptiness as the Dao - as the Tai Chi - because it creates new matter from virtual matter. That is what is meant by Yuan Shen having "movement in non-doing."

 

Yan Xin calls this the "virtual information field" that he does his qi healing with. So then practicing Tai Chi utilizes this secret of the Shen under the Jing - I have the details on the blog - so the left hand is yang and lower body yin and right hand is yin and upper body yang.

 

That is the basic principle of how to turn the body into a self charging energy generator. In ancient times - this is traced back to archaeology - of Dragon and Tiger - the original terms of yin and yang - and based on the directions of East and West. I have the details with images in the free pdf. This is proven in archaeology back to 5,000 BCE. But why stop there?

 

So this is the Tai Chi teaching - the right and left hand as dragon and tiger - with the upper and lower body.

 

People want to talk time lines and lineages, etc. But the biology of humans has stayed the same since 100,00 years ago except for some minor allele differences.

 

The original human culture taught to visualize fire in the base of the spine - and so taught the secret of Tai Chi. haha. That is documented from before human language differentiated so at least 70,000 years ago - in the Eland Bull dance ritual of females during the full moon.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

The void is yinyang.

[kpodhayski]

1 hour ago, flowing hands said:

Although one might say that other living things practice Dao without knowing it, so do humans. As other life learns to live and to be at one with the processes of nature, which it needs to survive, people live, practice Tai Ji and the like to help them have a better understanding of themselves and the world around them. Dao cannot be defined just as this and not that. Tai Ji reflects the soft and yielding principles of nature, same as the shaman copies the movements of animals to understand those animals better. Tai ji is not the Dao and the Dao is not Tai Ji, but just a process within the way.

 

A reasonable explanation, but nah. If you want to understand yourself, be yourself.

 

Have you ever watched a cat messing with someone doing Yoga?

Who is the Daoist in this video?

 

 

[kpodhayski]

2 hours ago, Starjumper said:

You could say that, yes.  However I think one aspect of human nature that is being overlooked is the desire to improve one's self simply for the sake of feeling better, particularly when they get old. 

 

I am not overlooking desire. Desire, that is the problem. Tai Chi is full of desire. Get rid of desire and your will understand the Dao.

[Starjumper]

I already did that, but consider this.  Chuang Tzu is often depicted with a sword.  Do you think he practiced with the sword?  I think he did.  For digging up potatoes or killing people who got in his face, or both.

 

Maybe desire wasn't really the best word for me to use in my previous post.

 

So therefore it appears that the lord of 'let it be' had some kind of desire attached to his sword.  How can that be?  I think he had a desire to stay alive, for justice, and to not let anyone take his sword away.  

 

Look for the middle ground  That's the dot of opposite color in the yin yang diagram.

 

If you see a ripe peach on a tree and you want to eat it is that desire, does that desire erase understanding of the Way?

 

Well if the fruit is on your tree that's one thing, but if you have to jump the fence into farmer John's orchard to steal the peach then that something else.  And if the ripe peach is farmer John's daughter then that's something else again.  The peach of immortality.  Just ramblin ...

Edited June 21, 2017 by Starjumper

[Daeluin]

4 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Yes, a raging forest fire to burn down their stupidity and make them run and jump in a lake of Yin.

 

Would these people cry when it is all gone? That would be foolish.

 

The quality of the principle of the phase of change known as fire, as may be explored in the book of changes, is multilayered.

 

Outwardly blazing, it becomes wild, impatient, presumptive, overactive, ambitious, untameable, and so on. It goes out of control, and the earth it creates is also out of balance. This is important, because earth is where we find the center. If earth is created based on the out of control expression of desires, it loses integrity and cannot hold itself together.

 

On the other hand, fire that is able to adhere to the center from the beginning, is patient and harmonious. It is expression that reflects the development of etiquette and sophistication. It represents illumination, as in a light that does not flicker and is stable enough to easily read by - as in inner illumination. It represents clarity. This all comes from operating with harmony, creating such that the established center is preserved - this is how it maintains clarity, by smoothing out the ripples, rather than creating new ones.

 

The phase of metal represents the return, and also knowledge and the amassing of attachments with our societies and our bodies. It is fire that controls metal and can surgically melt and dissolve those attachments and blockages to flow, if used properly.

 

Yes, the raging wild-fire of out of control ambitions burn down the forests, destroy living things and create barren wastelands. The growth of such momentums is like a cancer.

 

Yet cancer within the human body, is regularly healed with taijiquan.

 

Taijiquan that is marketed for what it can do, is not the taijiquan that does those things. Real taijiquan that is effective comes from being practiced with an empty mind, free of desire. If this principle is taught, it can be easily extended into life as well.

 

Just as taijiquan can be used to help others to slow down and turn within, and at advanced levels to cultivate the evolved qualities of the phase of fire, so too can these principles be extended into society to work upon the cancerous momentums that may be found there. This is delicate work, and may not always be "visible."

[Starjumper]

20 minutes ago, Daeluin said:

Taijiquan that is marketed for what it can do, is not the taijiquan that does those things. Real taijiquan that is effective comes from being practiced with an empty mind, free of desire. If this principle is taught, it can be easily extended into life as well.

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Starjumper

[kpodhayski]

1 hour ago, Daeluin said:

Yes, the raging wild-fire of out of control ambitions burn down the forests, destroy living things and create barren wastelands. The growth of such momentums is like a cancer.

 

Yet cancer within the human body, is regularly healed with taijiquan.

 

Taijiquan that is marketed for what it can do, is not the taijiquan that does those things. Real taijiquan that is effective comes from being practiced with an empty mind, free of desire. If this principle is taught, it can be easily extended into life as well.

 

Just as taijiquan can be used to help others to slow down and turn within, and at advanced levels to cultivate the evolved qualities of the phase of fire, so too can these principles be extended into society to work upon the cancerous momentums that may be found there. This is delicate work, and may not always be "visible."

 

 

Forest fires are a natural part of a healthy forest. Sometimes they are needed when the thicket of bullshit gets too thick. Taijiquan heals cancer now! Sheesh.

 

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

A martial art which is a physical expression of Taoist principles is call Tai Chi Chuan. A healing art based on taoist principles is called acupuncture. A musician does tai chi, any art form is tai chi, at a rest area on the side of the road when people get out of their car  and stretch it is tai chi, when a cat lands on its feet after falling it is tai chi, when your art is not separate from your life it is tai chi.

 

Tai chi is the supreme ultimate pole first named in the I Ching.This uniting principle of the observed universe is the same natural laws of this universe for all living animated and non animated forms of life providing you have a body or some type of form and color. This uniting principle is expressed in medicine, science, martial arts and all forms of expression it does not even matter if one is Taoist or not it is just the way it is.

 

The legendary Chang Sen Feng form Wudang Mountain created a form of martial arts based on taoist principles. If one wishes to prove to themselves the philosophy of the tao and get out of their own mind and their own way prove it to yourself in the physical realm. There are  countless forms most do not even know exist 

[Daeluin]

24 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

 

Forest fires are a natural part of a healthy forest. Sometimes they are needed when the thicket of bullshit gets too thick.

 

Yes, for some types of forests. And this is a great example of healthy use of fire.

 

I had hoped it would be clear that the type of fire I am speaking about it, is the fire of man waging war on nature.

 

24 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

Taijiquan heals cancer now! Sheesh.

 

Do you have something against healing cancer?