Tai Chi is a Bastardization of Daoism

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

I began by saying that Tai Chi was a bastardization of the Dao. Why?

 

AHA, I suspected this.  you makeadymistakedy.   In the beginning of this post I wondered if you meant Tao or Taoism.  I image you are well aware of the difference between tao and taoism.  So it appears that a lot of this discussion is the result of you meaning tai chi is a bastardization of tao and debating that point, while others were debating it pertaining to the words in the title - bastardization of Taoism.  So it's a completely different discussion.  Time to start over.

 

 

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Starjumper

[Wu Ming Jen]

 Taoist questions everything. 

 

The placebo effect can cure many diseases but that is just fake magic that does not exist.

 

Many people are afraid of death there whole life and when it is on their doorstep it can not come fast enough..

 

We live in a society, an energetic field of self interest. a cancer cell is a self interested cell with no regard to the surrounding cells. We have basically created cancer . 

[Brian]

29 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Your question was meaningless and revealed that you do not understand.

 

I am not saying that being like an animal cures cancer.

 

I am saying that they do not have cancer only because they do not know what it is.

 

And what is so wrong with having cancer?

You said:

"You know what cures cancer? Not having the knowledge of cancer."

 

Hence my question.

[Starjumper]

Quote

All these teachers wanting you to become healthier, more powerful, or magical; what sage of the Dao has ever taught that?

 

Most of them, and that includes Lao Tzu.  All legitimate schools of Taoism will lead you to experience magic!  That is a fact, not debatable.

 

Remember, Taoism is a warrior tradition.  The warrior tradition is the setting for wu wei.  Wu wei is only sought within the context of warrior way!

Edited June 21, 2017 by Starjumper

[Daeluin]

2 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Do they know they have cancer? Do they live their lives trying to avoid and figure out how to cure cancer?

 

If you never knew what cancer was, and you died of it, what would you tell people you have died of?

 

If you do not know what death is, or what birth is?

 

I am afraid you are all missing the meanings of the teachings. Daoism does not cure cancer, it cures your idea of cancer.

 

Empty your mind of all thoughts. <---of ALL thoughts, even Tai Chi, even death and cancer!

 

Yes, as I have said, the taijiquan that is practiced with desire is not the taijiquan that "does magical things."

 

You say to empty the mind of all thoughts - how should this be practiced. Sitting? Standing? Or in anything at all? Why not taijiquan?

 

The way I have been taught to practice taijiquan is to empty my mind of all thoughts, and to use this form as a tool to carry over into all of life.

 

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Your question was meaningless and revealed that you do not understand.

 

I am not saying that being like an animal cures cancer.

 

I am saying that they do not have cancer only because they do not know what it is.

 

And what is so wrong with having cancer?

 

Nothing is wrong with cancer, it is a part of dao. And yet we are entrusted with this bodily form and this nature, to act in accordance with them. Cancer and other types of illness may or may not be signs that we are straying more from our nature than returning to it.

 

This is up to us to reason out, by learning to listen to our inner nature.

 

10 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

 

OK.

 

No, I have nothing against healing cancer. But Tai Chi does not heal cancer, or light fires, or move trains, or make people collapse from a distance.

 

Chuang Tzu:

Shun asked (his attendant) Khang, saying, 'Can I get the Tâo and hold it as mine?' The reply was, 'Your body is not your own to hold;-- how then can you get and hold the Tâo?' Shun resumed, 'If my body be not mine to possess and hold, who holds it?' Khang said, 'It is the bodily form entrusted to you by Heaven and Earth. Life is not yours to hold. It is the blended harmony (of the Yin and Yang), entrusted to you by Heaven and Earth. Your nature, constituted as it is, is not yours to hold. It is entrusted to you by Heaven and Earth to act in accordance with it.

 

I have been taught by an ancient tradition that we are in sacred reciprocity with the mother.

We receive life energy from the mother, and then return it to her as pure as we have received it.

This is related to the formless becoming form and returning to formlessness.

 

Yet often we do things that lead to attachment of the form, and difficulty in returning to formlessness.

It is our agreement to work out how to dissolve those attachments and return to formlessness.

This is the same as figuring out how to become empty once again and return to our original nature.

 

And if one can do this without abandoning the body, but learn to return the body to formless as well, all the better.

 

It is done through resting upon our destiny, and accepting responsibility to working through what comes in emptiness.

 

 

For me, this came in the form of a taijiquan teacher, who taught me how to empty my mind. It is a work in progress.

 

That same ancient tradition taught me that martial arts may be used as a tool to work toward accomplishing this sacred agreement, but that too it should not be used to go away from the agreement. This is an important point.

 

3 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Yeah. like chemotherapy and changes in diet. But Taii Chi? You have no evidence.

 

And I don't need any (evidence) either, and neither do you. You clearly don't know much about taijiquan, and cannot truthfully say where it may or may not help to guide one. Yet you seem to think it cannot guide one to emptiness.

 

My teacher says he has had several people come to him with cancer, and they have left cured. He can see these things.

He is humble about it, and the responsibility is theirs. He does not fill them with desire and expectations. He simply leads them to emptiness.

 

Those of us who have been with him for some time may happen to hear of these things, but they are not advertised, and we do not have question and answer sessions. We trust in the flow of dao.

 

Quote

 

Not how they are allowed to, just pointing out their stupidity. I am just "teaching without teaching".

 

When they lose their sense of awe,
people turn to religion.
When they no longer trust themselves,
they begin to depend upon authority.

Therefore the Master steps back
so that people won't be confused.
He teaches without a teaching,
so that people will have nothing to learn.

 

Yet you seem to be generating much confusion.

 

I see teaching without a teaching, as meeting people where they are, in harmony. And from there leading them to emptiness.

 

Slapping them in the face first makes things a bit awkward. How does this help them learn to trust themselves? Or return to their sense of awe? It was in practicing taijiquan that I was led to rediscovering my sense of awe.

 

But I don't mean to attach to taijiquan, which is just a type of moving qi gong (energy work) - it is just a tool, a vessel, from which to work toward emptiness. Any other will do, yet in the west the things we "do" are often not conducive to emptiness, and this tool can be helpful to many. As one returns to their nature the tool may be let go of.

[dwai]

2 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

 

When has Lao Tzu said; "You need to learn to deal with your desires"? Never!

 

Your's are the words of a person who does not want to give up their desires.

 

 

 

I was content as a crane on a river bank till all you starting making all this racket!

You have some good ideas but by putting on that cantankerous facade you undo what those good ideas do. Since you have already unlearnt, why not just be? 

 

Yeah taiji is manifestation of the void. When people do taijiquan they are learning to not do, because doing is all we learn as humans. Most people don't get it. You don't get it either it seems

 

Doing is artificial, thinking is artificial, mind is artificial. 

 

Better to just be, do without doing, know without knowing. 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

I had a friend that was a hemophiliac He started to go to Tai Chi Classes with me when I was in my early 20's. When he had his check up at the doctors his white blood cells increased and the doctor ask the question of what he was doing differently and he replied Tai Chi.

 

Now here is the key he had no intention to increase his white blood cells it just happened. When we accomplish without striving it is true accomplishment when we are kind without being kind it is true kindness.

 

If one wishes to do tai chi and accomplish something it will not happen because we have created the obstacle before we have even started.

 

The Tao is simply how things work and is many times the opposite of how are minds have been programed. A bird does not wake up and say I am not going to fly today. It is the birds nature to fly. We all have our own nature.One nature is programed but our true nature is one with the Tao it does not oppose the Tao and because of that it is everlasting beyond the dust of this world much more than a temporary body and the start and stops of mind like birth and death .

 

If I did not have a body what problems could I possibly have?

[kpodhayski]

2 hours ago, Marblehead said:

But I'm not going to get rid of "all" my desires.  Those are the spices of life.  We just shouldn't hold to them as if they were a "need".

 

 

 

Then you are not a Daoist.

 

From the Dao de Ching, remember that? Maybe time to get back to basics----

 

Colors blind the eye.
Sounds deafen the ear.
Flavors numb the taste.
Thoughts weaken the mind.
Desires wither the heart.

-

If you close your mind in judgements
and traffic with desires,
your heart will be troubled.

-

Therefore the Master takes action
by letting things take their course.
He remains as calm
at the end as at the beginning.
He has nothing,
thus has nothing to lose.
What he desires is non-desire;
what he learns is to unlearn.

[kpodhayski]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

Most of them, and that includes Lao Tzu.  All legitimate schools of Taoism will lead you to experience magic!  That is a fact, not debatable.

 

Remember, Taoism is a warrior tradition.  The warrior tradition is the setting for wu wei.  Wu wei is only sought within the context of warrior way!

 

Well I guess I will stick with the illegitimate schools.

 

Where did you ge this non-sense that Daoism is a warrior tradition?

[Starjumper]

2 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

Where did you ge this non-sense that Daoism is a warrior tradition?

 

By observing facts and history and using common sense.  Were done now!

[kpodhayski]

1 hour ago, dwai said:

You have some good ideas but by putting on that cantankerous facade you undo what those good ideas do. Since you have already unlearnt, why not just be? 

 

Yeah taiji is manifestation of the void. When people do taijiquan they are learning to not do, because doing is all we learn as humans. Most people don't get it. You don't get it either it seems

 

Doing is artificial, thinking is artificial, mind is artificial. 

 

Better to just be, do without doing, know without knowing. 

 

 

My reactions are all automatic. Reflexive. My cantakerousness is not a facade, it is deep in my bones. I am a bear and the Dao is my bear cub, protecting it is now my instinct. How does a natural man act? Who knows.

 

Maybe it would be easier to learn how to not do by not doing. Manifesting the void...ha!

[Marblehead]

10 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Then you are not a Daoist.

 

 

Your opinion here means nothing to me.

 

It is true I am not a Laoist.  

 

There are some things in the TTC that I do not accept because reality has proven them to be invalid.

 

My first desire is to remain alive until I meet a natural death.  During my 20 years in the Army there have been people who wanted me to have an unnatural death.  Their desires were not fulfilled.  Why?  Because of my desires.  I guess mine were stronger than their's were.

 

You will never see or hear of me reflecting the attributes of a pacifist.  But you will hear of me suggesting that if it ain't broke, don't be trying to fix it.

 

You really wouldn't expect me to take no action if someone were trying to kill me, would you?  

 

All excess is bad.

 

[kpodhayski]

1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

I had a friend that was a hemophiliac He started to go to Tai Chi Classes with me when I was in my early 20's. When he had his check up at the doctors his white blood cells increased and the doctor ask the question of what he was doing differently and he replied Tai Chi.

 

Now here is the key he had no intention to increase his white blood cells it just happened. When we accomplish without striving it is true accomplishment when we are kind without being kind it is true kindness.

 

If one wishes to do tai chi and accomplish something it will not happen because we have created the obstacle before we have even started.

 

The Tao is simply how things work and is many times the opposite of how are minds have been programed. A bird does not wake up and say I am not going to fly today. It is the birds nature to fly. We all have our own nature.One nature is programed but our true nature is one with the Tao it does not oppose the Tao and because of that it is everlasting beyond the dust of this world much more than a temporary body and the start and stops of mind like birth and death .

 

If I did not have a body what problems could I possibly have?

 

His white blood cells could have risen because of something he ate that day. You associating it to Tai Chi is magical thinking.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

 

Your last sentance, meditate on that!

 

[Starjumper]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

It is true I am not a Laoist.

 

you know, since Lao Tzu is pronounced like 'lousy'  Then the correct term should be 'Lousiest'.

 

I've found that a lot of Lousiest's appreciate but little of the TTC because they don't have the context ...

[kpodhayski]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Your opinion here means nothing to me.

 

It is true I am not a Laoist.  

 

There are some things in the TTC that I do not accept because reality has proven them to be invalid.

 

My first desire is to remain alive until I meet a natural death.  During my 20 years in the Army there have been people who wanted me to have an unnatural death.  Their desires were not fulfilled.  Why?  Because of my desires.  I guess mine were stronger than their's were.

 

You will never see or hear of me reflecting the attributes of a pacifist.  But you will hear of me suggesting that if it ain't broke, don't be trying to fix it.

 

You really wouldn't expect me to take no action if someone were trying to kill me, would you?  

 

All excess is bad.

 

 

Who says acting defensively cannot be done with Wu Wei? Come on kid, this is basic stuff!

 

All excess is bad? HA! You are not a laoist or a daoist. You are a dualist.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Starjumper said:

 

you know, since Lao Tzu is pronounced like 'lousy'  Then the correct term should be 'Lousiest'.

 

I've found that a lot of Lousiest's appreciate but little of the TTC because they don't have the context ...

You went further than I ever would have.  I respect the TTC and Lao Tzu words.  They are words of a person desiring (I used that word intentionally) peace and goodwill toward all people.

 

It's just that the reality of the nature of man keeps getting in the way.  We cannot change the nature of man.  Even Jesus, Buddha and Confucius failed at that.

 

[Starjumper]

1 minute ago, Marblehead said:

You went further than I ever would have.  I respect the TTC and Lao Tzu words.  They are words of a person desiring (I used that word intentionally) peace and goodwill toward all people.

 

No no no,  I respect the TTC and Lao Tzu's words very much.  I was just saying that a lot of Laoists (not all) don't really get much of the deeper aspects.  

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Who says acting defensively cannot be done with Wu Wei? Come on kid, this is basic stuff!

 

All excess is bad? HA! You are not a laoist or a daoist. You are a dualist.

Well, of course I am a dualist.  That's the way my brain functions.  And so are you, BTW.

 

You switched the concepts being discussed.  We were talking about my desires and you went to wu wei.

 

Of course acting defensively is wu wei.  And so is acting offensively.  And so is all acting (action) without alterior motive and it can even be accompanied by intent.

 

And you are trying to find my weakness but you never will find any because there are none.

 

PS  Labels do not define me, they define only a given aspect of who/what I am.

 

[kpodhayski]

4 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

You went further than I ever would have.  I respect the TTC and Lao Tzu words.  They are words of a person desiring (I used that word intentionally) peace and goodwill toward all people.

 

It's just that the reality of the nature of man keeps getting in the way.  We cannot change the nature of man.  Even Jesus, Buddha and Confucius failed at that.

 

 

Giving advice does not mean that the advisor has desire. Wu Wei is invisible.

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Giving advice does not mean that the advisor has desire. Wu Wei is invisible.

Hehehe.  How about ego instead of desire?  

Yes, wu wei is a mental concept.  Like cold, dead ashes.

 

[kpodhayski]

Just now, Marblehead said:

Well, of course I am a dualist.  That's the way my brain functions.  And so are you, BTW.

 

You switched the concepts being discussed.  We were talking about my desires and you went to wu wei.

 

Of course acting defensively is wu wei.  And so is acting offensively.  And so is all acting (action) without alterior motive and it can even be accompanied by intent.

 

And you are trying to find my weakness but you never will find any because there are none.

 

PS  Labels do not define me, they define only a given aspect of who/what I am.

 

 

Believing in dualism, not using it, makes you a dualist.

 

If you think desire and wu wei have nothing in common you just need to do a brief internet search to understand.

 

I found your weakness, it is that you have no weakness!

[rene]

6 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

No no no,  I respect the TTC and Lao Tzu's words very much.  I was just saying that a lot of Laoists (not all) don't really get much of the deeper aspects.  

 

True, that. And some do.

 

Loving this exchange, btw. Nice to have a little fire breathed into this heavy yin place. Go kpod!

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Believing in dualism, not using it, makes you a dualist.

 

If you think desire and wu wei have nothing in common you just need to do a brief internet search to understand.

 

I found your weakness, it is that you have no weakness!

I am glad that we have found a way to disagree with each other and still maintain respect for the view of the other.

 

Dualism begins when we conceptualize right/wrong, beautiful/ugly, useful/useless, etc.  I have not denied having desires and I have not denied being a dualist.  (But I do have the capacity of non-dual thought when conditions allow.)

 

Your second paragraph is a tricky one - desire & wu wei.  (Things like this I do not search the internet, I search my unconscious mind.)  It depends on how we define "desire".  Internal or external.  Same goes with the word "intent".

 

Hehehe.  Oh!, I have my weaknesses.  It is just that it is very rare that I show them.  That way no one can take advantage of them.

 

[Daeluin]

6 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Hehehe.  Oh!, I have my weaknesses.  It is just that it is very rare that I show them.  That way no one can take advantage of them.

 

 

Including yourself?

 

The the other day in class, we were doing some two person work.

 

Someone was having trouble with two-person work, and asked how to respond to a partner who is hard and stiff in their movements. The person believed that if he did not also become hard and stiff, the other would push him around.

 

Sifu replied that no, we still meet hardness and stiffness with softness and emptiness.

 

The questioner asked if the emptiness would be pushed around.

 

Sifu chuckled lightly and said no, no. The emptiness would not be pushed around.

[voidisyinyang]

4 hours ago, Brian said:

You didn't answer my question.

 

Actually the qigong master I trained with he was healing our friend's dog who had cancer. The dog had late stage cancer and so it was easier to help the dog die peacefully - as otherwise it would have taken a ton of energy to heal. So the qigong master said the dog knew to leave its body - spiritually - so that the qigong master could just work on healing the body. So the qigong master said that when the dog died - it was on its own - but when the qigong master treated the dog then it got enough energy to go drink water on its own, etc. So then when it died a few days later - the qigong master said the dog's spirit then visited the qigong master and they played together for days in the spirit world. I'm talking about http://guidingqi.com

 

So I think dogs probably know if they get cancer - for example dogs can smell cancer.