Tai Chi is a Bastardization of Daoism

[Taomeow]

Just now, Brian said:

Oh, I beg to differ, ma'am -- I rival the most clueless in history on my best days.

 

We all have our good days.  As the Duke of Zhou put it, "even a malnourished troll  pig can rage like a ferocious beast on occasion."  But "cluelessness" is not a chronic condition with those who don't mind getting a clue if they realize they don't have it, while being a malnourished troll pig is, I'm afraid.  Someone, somewhere failed to feed it at a crucial developmental stage.  So no amount of feedback will ever abate that hunger.  That's the wisdom behind the "don't feed the troll" mantra.  It's not heartless.  Just pragmatic. 

[rene]

15 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Yes, like the law of gravity, which is how I was using the word law.

 

The Dao does not flow. Common misconception. Think of the Dao as the patterns in a terrain. When rain falls on the terrain it follows a certain pattern. That pattern reveals the terrain (Dao), but it is not the terrain (Dao). so yo can flow with the Dao, as water flows down hill.

 

You get that?

 

These guys explain it well. Check it out at about 3:12

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaULzIYPZf8

 

so you can act in a way that is not in accordance to the Dao or against the Dao.  Lao Tzu says; "That which goes against the Tao comes to an early end."  Whenever you are not in a state of Wu Wei you go against the Dao. When you do you are aligned with the Dao.

 

And "Let the kingdom be governed according to the Tâo, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy."

 

Chuang Tzu brings it up several times;

 

"The ancients who regulated the Tâo nourished their faculty of knowledge by their placidity, and all through life abstained from employing that faculty in action;-- they must be pronounced to have (thus also) nourished their placidity by their knowledge."

 

" They left the Tâo, and substituted the Good for it, and pursued the course of Haphazard Virtue."

 

Not only can we go against the Dao, it can be lost and hidden!

 

"When the Tâo was lost, its Characteristics appeared. When its Characteristics were lost, Benevolence appeared. When Benevolence was lost, Righteousness appeared. When Righteousness was lost, Ceremonies appeared. Ceremonies are but (the unsubstantial) flowers of the Tâo, and the commencement of disorder."

 

 

 

 

(-: Thanks for such a detailed reply, kpod; enjoyable to read!  I'm not daoist but I like hearing the ideas of others - even when (especially when!) they are very different than my own.

 

LiErh, through The Laozi, speaks to each of us and though the same 'words' may be read or heard - what comes through them can vary greatly, leading to a variety in the clarity of understandings.

 

Many share the understandings you stated above; my perspective is different. I'm glad you've found what works for you!

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

We all have our good days.  As the Duke of Zhou put it, "even a malnourished troll  pig can rage like a ferocious beast on occasion."  But "cluelessness" is not a chronic condition with those who don't mind getting a clue if they realize they don't have it, while being a malnourished troll pig is, I'm afraid.  Someone, somewhere failed to feed it at a crucial developmental stage.  So no amount of feedback will ever abate that hunger.  That's the wisdom behind the "don't feed the troll" mantra.  It's not heartless.  Just pragmatic. 

When the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw.

[Taomeow]

2 minutes ago, Brian said:

When the wind is southerly, I know a hawk from a handsaw.

 

  It's seldom so windy here that handsaws go flying.  If I see one, I duck.  Whereas when I see a hawk, and hear a duck quack, I don't have a clue how to finish this.  

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

  It's seldom so windy here that handsaws go flying.  If I see one, I duck.  Whereas when I see a hawk, and hear a duck quack, I don't have a clue how to finish this.  

Whereas when I see a hawk and hear a duck quack, I duck under the handsaw so the hawk does not squawk and pounce on me? 

[Taomeow]

  Thank you.  Now I know the drill. 

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

  Thank you.  Now I know the drill. 

Hand drill.

[Wu Ming Jen]

I find it extremely hilarious that a person that took a Tai Chi class once has so much to say about the subject.

 

I personally train on Wudang mountain. Tao being divorced from the endless forms of taoist movement present on the mountain and trained daily would only be a case of a  blind man leading the way. or the deluded man deluding themselves and others.

 

There exists a long history of movement and exercise systems which are associated with Taoism. In some sense one can see elements of all of these as contributing to the climate from which Tai Chi emerged.

 

 

Later in the fifteenth century A.D. the purported founder of Tai Chi Chuan, the monk Chang San-feng, was honoured by the Emperor Ying- tsung with the title of chen-jen, or 'spiritual man who has attained the Tao and is no longer ruled by what he sees, hears or feels.' This indicates that already at this time there was a close association between the philosophy of Taoism and the practice of Tai Chi.

 

In any event the principles of yielding, softness, centeredness, slowness, balance, suppleness and rootedness are all elements of Taoist philosophy that Tai Chi has drawn upon in its understanding of movement, both in relation to health and also in its martial applications. One can see these influences (of softness and effortlessness) in the names of certain movements in the Tai Chi Form.

 

The best part of this thread is that it is so ridiculous it is funny because the comedy is the tragedy.

[Marblehead]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

Hand drill.

No.  Duck.  We gotta know how to duck.

[Starjumper]

6 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

No.  Duck.  We gotta know how to duck.

 

Ya, keeping from being hit is rule # 1.  If you don't get hit then you probably won't get beat.

[Brian]

M R Ducks
M R Knot
O S A R, C M Wangs?
L I B
M R Ducks

[dwai]

5 hours ago, Taomeow said:

  Thank you.  Now I know the drill. 

And you can already bounce the hawk when it does pounce! 

Duck - Lu

Bounce on the Pounce - Peng

Drill - Zuan (XingYi) or Ji (Taiji) (I think they're the same thing...though I've not felt drilling jin of XinYi, I have felt the press of Taiji)

Handsaw - Ming Jin?

 

(Just thought we can agonize mr trollstoy with some internal concepts)

[cold]

Duck duck goose anyone?

[flowing hands]

17 hours ago, WuDao said:

 

I guess we'll have to disagree on this.

 

My perspective is that Dao flows in all directions, at the same time, in each moment.... and even flow isn't the right word because there is nothing that is not Dao - for Dao to flow against!!

 

Your examples (water path, true nature) are ways we can make our individual dao (way) easier, indeed.

 

And when breathing is hard, Dao is right there down in the shit with us (ZZ), enabling our next breath in the next moment to be easier, if we choose it.

 

To me, there are no 'laws of Dao'. There are, however, laws (tendancies) of physics, and laws (experiences) of what might be more efficacious in this situation or that, all of which can be observed....  but there is no law of Dao, no fixed path of Dao. WuDao.

 

warm greetings

 

 

 

To help you out here I think 'radiate' is a better word than 'flow'.

[dwai]

43 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

To help you out here I think 'radiate' is a better word than 'flow'.

I feel it more like "expand"

[Brian]

I find aspects of both.

 

"Glow" is the word that comes to mind for me.

[Marblehead]

How about "dissipate"?

 

 

[Starjumper]

19 hours ago, WuDao said:

To me, there are no 'laws of Dao'. There are, however, laws (tendancies) of physics ... 

 

I never thought of laws of Tao, but I define Tao as the way the universe works and so that means physics, including all the physics that scientist are uninterested in and unaware of.  The laws of physics therefore could be said to be the laws of Tao.  Too me, but I wouldn't bother to go there, to say 'laws of Tao'.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Starjumper

[Marblehead]

3 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I never thought of laws of Tao, but I define Tao as the way the universe works and so that means physics, including all the physics that scientist are uninterested in and unaware of.  The laws of physics therefore could be said to be the laws of Tao.  Too me, but I wouldn't bother to go there, to say 'laws of Tao'.

I intentionally avoid the word "laws" and use the word "processes" instead.  TzuJan suggests "natural processes".

 

[Brian]

55 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

How about "dissipate"?

 

 

I think "dissipate" carries the connotation of diminishment over time.  My personal experience suggests no diminishment and a sense of growth or increase (which I think is more perceptual, which is why I say "a sense of" -- I think it is an artifact of alignment).

[dwai]

While Tai Chi is not a bastardization of Daoism, I can tell you that "Chai Tea" sure is a bastardization of Tea and Chai. Chai means Tea in Indian languages, Tea means Chai in English. So Chai Tea is the self-bastardizing entity of Tea and Tea or Chai and Chai

[rene]

7 hours ago, Brian said:

M R Ducks
M R Knot
O S A R, C M Wangs?
L I B
M R Ducks

Didnt have a clue.....till I read it out loud.

[rene]

4 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 

To help you out here I think 'radiate' is a better word than 'flow'.

 

3 hours ago, dwai said:

I feel it more like "expand"

 

2 hours ago, Brian said:

I find aspects of both.

 

"Glow" is the word that comes to mind for me.

 

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

How about "dissipate"?

 

 

 

Thanks guys!! All the suggestions are better than 'flow', which brings to mind a bank lined stream <-too confining, implies direction.

 

Radiate & expand are very good...yet still seems to imply a central source location, to move outward from..

 

Glow adds heat&light to it for me...

 

Dissipate, even with its diminishing connotation, might hit this closest; it feels the least, um, invasive... for that which already naturally permeates everything.

 

Think what I'll do is avoid typing sentences that require any description at all, heh.

 

Thanks again!

[Michael Sternbach]

WuDao,

 

Not sure if it is of any help - but when I was reading through the suggestions, the word "undulate" came to mind.

[rene]

Hi Michael, & thanks!

 

I think the wise thing for me to remember is as Tao is undefinable, so might be its characteristics. As much as undulate fits, so would its antonym. Same with all the other suggestions, for that matter.

 

Maybe Tao doesn't "do" anything at all!

 

Maybe it just "is" - eternally and unboundaried with the manifestations, as they arise. (-:

 

Fun stuff to think about!

warm regards