Tai Chi is a Bastardization of Daoism

[kpodhayski]

Just now, Starjumper said:

Well, Kopd, won't find the person or the answer he want's because of a mistaken thread title, and when I pointed this out he ignored it.  When I pointed out Chang Tzu having a sword he ignored it.  

 

The funny thing is that he could really get a much deeper appreciation of Taoism if he learned tai chi, but that won't happen.  In response to one of my posts he said he was in an illegitimate school of Taoism, but I think he's not in school, or if he is then it is illegitimate.

 

Who said I do not know Tai Chi? I practiced it once and I laughed the whole time!

 

Why bother talking with someone who does not understand the metaphor of Chaung Tzu's Three swords? You think he needed a real sword? Ha!

 

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu3.html#30

[flowing hands]

1 hour ago, WuDao said:

 

Oh...I dunno. It got you to show up.

 

Kpop, meet flowing hands.

 

Yes its gone from bad to worse, from worse to beyond those 'places that men detest'......even the Dao might not like to go there 

[rene]

2 minutes ago, flowing hands said:

 

Yes its gone from bad to worse, from worse to beyond those 'places that men detest'......even the Dao might not like to go there 

 

 

[Chang]

13 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Who said I do not know Tai Chi? I practiced it once and I laughed the whole time!

 

When a superior man hears of the Tao,

he immediately begins to embody it.

When an average man hears of the Tao,

he retains some and loses some.

When a foolish man hears of the Tao,

he laughs out loud at the very idea.

If it were not for that laugh,

it would not be the Tao.

 

My own view is that this also holds true for Tai Chi.

The microcosm reflecting the macrocosm.

 

13 minutes ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Why bother talking with someone who does not understand the metaphor of Chaung Tzu's Three swords? You think he needed a real sword? Ha!

 

https://terebess.hu/english/chuangtzu3.html#30

 

[kpodhayski]

7 minutes ago, Chang said:

 

When a superior man hears of the Tao,

he immediately begins to embody it.

When an average man hears of the Tao,

he retains some and loses some.

When a foolish man hears of the Tao,

he laughs out loud at the very idea.

If it were not for that laugh,

it would not be the Tao.

 

My own view is that this also holds true for Tai Chi.

The microcosm reflecting the macrocosm.

 

 

 

No, I do not laugh at the Dao, only at Tai Chi. Your own view is worthless.

[Brian]

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

Forget heavy lifting.  With a certain kind, the thing to remember is not to feed them.  They only grow bigger and heavier when fed.

 

It's not nice to post my picture without asking...

[Michael Sternbach]

41 minutes ago, WuDao said:

 

Hi Michael,

Whose translation is this? I like its treatment of the second line; one that is usually much different, to attempt to support a different idea altogether. Thanks!

 

Hi Renee WuDao,

It's the one by D. C. Lau.

 

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/lau.htm

[Michael Sternbach]

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Ha! Is that the Donald J Trump Translation? Horrible! Here are some others:

 

Legge:

Always without desire we must be found,
If its deep mystery we would sound;
But if desire always within us be,
Its outer fringe is all that we shall see.

 

Suzuki

Therefore it is said:
" He who desireless is found
The spiritual of the world will sound.
But he who by desire is bound
Sees the mere shell of things around."

 

These translations are essentially from the Victorian age, with its emphasis on Moralism/Dualism. A view which Lao Tzu transcended already in the next sentence (the one you preferred to ommit). 

 

Quote

Goddard:

Therefore not to desire the things of sense is to know the freedom of spirituality; and to desire is to learn the limitation of matter.

 

To learn the limitation of matter (and what to do with it) is what we came here to do, otherwise we could just have stayed in the spirit realm.

 

Quote

Love is a four letter word!

 

Yes, to be the living dead, that is the goal!

 

Go ahead, do what you like, but it is not in line with the Dao and it is not Daoism.

 

It may not be in line with your Dao, but it's in line with mine.

 

Good luck to you.

Edited June 21, 2017 by Michael Sternbach

[rene]

18 minutes ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Hi Renee WuDao,

It's the one by D. C. Lau.

 

https://terebess.hu/english/tao/lau.htm

 

Thanks, Michael, most appreciated. I read the next few chapters of Lau's - and LiEhr's intent doesn't really come through the word choices, imo; not nearly as much as it does in F/E's and flowing hands' transmission, too.

 

At least Ch1 of Lau's conveys, lol, and the treatment of that one line is what I use to palp the intent of a translation.

 

Thanks again!

[rene]

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

Go ahead, do what you like, but it is not in line with the Dao and it is not Daoism.

 

Ho ho! Forget Daoism; what is it you think is not in line with the Dao? Do you think you have found something that Dao is not a part of?

[Brian]

...Ever desireless, one can feel (heart) the mystery.

Ever desiring, one can see its manifestations...

-SFH transmission

 

[silent thunder]

What bird is screeching?
Fools talk and Sages listen.
Whose voice is that now?

 

oh mine...  right. 

well then... carry on my wayward suns

[kpodhayski]

1 hour ago, WuDao said:

 

Ho ho! Forget Daoism; what is it you think is not in line with the Dao? Do you think you have found something that Dao is not a part of?

 

Sorry, aligned with, as opposed to in line with. Following the path of water. Keeping to your true nature.

 

Meaning anything that attempts to work against the laws of the Dao. Like Tai Chi.

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

6 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

 

His white blood cells could have risen because of something he ate that day. You associating it to Tai Chi is magical thinking.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magical_thinking

 

Your last sentance, meditate on that!

 

Your right, the sun could have shifted or he ate something or a butterfly flapped its  wings it was anything but tai chi. Your argument is hilarious and is the reason I have something to post rather than read..You may have magical thinking and are trying  to prove your own thought that tai chi is bullshit and it is for you and always will be.

 

You demonstrate over and over again that you have no skill in Tai Chi Chuan and have a need to debunk any benefit because you are incapable and lack the discipline. so thats funny, your post are generally funny.

 

Meditate on the seeds of this thread you have started you want the negative attention.

[Starjumper]

It's clear the troll can't differentiate between Tao and Taoism.  Some of the other's answers here though are very good so I wonder, If I put the troll on ignore will that prevent me from seeing this thread?

Edited June 21, 2017 by Starjumper

[Brian]

9 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

It's clear the troll can't differentiate between Tao and Taoism.  Some of the other's answers here though are very good so I wonder, If I put the troll on ignore will that prevent me from seeing this thread?

No, only the individual's posts.  You will still see things quoted in other people's posts, too.

[Marblehead]

20 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

It's clear the troll can't differentiate between Tao and Taoism.  Some of the other's answers here though are very good so I wonder, If I put the troll on ignore will that prevent me from seeing this thread?

Only closing your eyes will prevent you from seeing this thread because you will forever be drawn to it by Dao (Tzujan).

 

 

[kpodhayski]

35 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Your right, the sun could have shifted or he ate something or a butterfly flapped its  wings it was anything but tai chi. Your argument is hilarious and is the reason I have something to post rather than read..You may have magical thinking and are trying  to prove your own thought that tai chi is bullshit and it is for you and always will be.

 

This part, you are mistaken. I did not say it disproved Tai chi, I said it did not prove it was the Tai chi. Scientists use double blind studies to negate magical thinking.

[Marblehead]

3 hours ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Who said I do not know Tai Chi? I practiced it once and I laughed the whole time!

 

Yeah, it wasn't "manly" enough for you.  I had the same problem when I started.  And when you look at the YouTube videos you mostly see elderly women up front doing their ballerina thing.  Difficult for a macho man to relate.

[rene]

1 hour ago, kpodhayski said:

 

Sorry, aligned with, as opposed to in line with. Following the path of water. Keeping to your true nature.

 

Meaning anything that attempts to work against the laws of the Dao. Like Tai Chi.

 

 

 

I guess we'll have to disagree on this.

 

My perspective is that Dao flows in all directions, at the same time, in each moment.... and even flow isn't the right word because there is nothing that is not Dao - for Dao to flow against!!

 

Your examples (water path, true nature) are ways we can make our individual dao (way) easier, indeed.

 

And when breathing is hard, Dao is right there down in the shit with us (ZZ), enabling our next breath in the next moment to be easier, if we choose it.

 

To me, there are no 'laws of Dao'. There are, however, laws (tendancies) of physics, and laws (experiences) of what might be more efficacious in this situation or that, all of which can be observed....  but there is no law of Dao, no fixed path of Dao. WuDao.

 

warm greetings

 

 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, WuDao said:

 

Thanks, Michael, most appreciated. I read the next few chapters of Lau's - and LiEhr's intent doesn't really come through the word choices, imo; not nearly as much as it does in F/E's and flowing hands' transmission, too.

 

At least Ch1 of Lau's conveys, lol, and the treatment of that one line is what I use to palp the intent of a translation.

 

Thanks again!

 

If you have a chance, and find yourself so inclined, get acquainted with D.C. Lau's work in more depth.  In passing one may not necessarily appreciate how much and how well he did for real translations of taoist classics -- rather than taking assorted poetic and (which is way worse) ideological liberties as Feng/English (and countless others) have done.  In particular, if you compare his translation of TTC with his translation of the Yuandao (and don't miss out on his preface), you will probably see the consistency of taoist-proper thought originating way before Laozi and reflected in TTC -- sometimes verbatim from earlier sources. 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Brian said:

It's not nice to post my picture without asking...

 

Your humility is admirable, but you're no match for the knight in clueless armor depicted in  that portrait.

[rene]

3 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

If you have a chance, and find yourself so inclined, get acquainted with D.C. Lau's work in more depth.  In passing one may not necessarily appreciate how much and how well he did for real translations of taoist classics -- rather than taking assorted poetic and (which is way worse) ideological liberties as Feng/English (and countless others) have done.  In particular, if you compare his translation of TTC with his translation of the Yuandao (and don't miss out on his preface), you will probably see the consistency of taoist-proper thought originating way before Laozi and reflected in TTC -- sometimes verbatim from earlier sources. 

 

I will, miss miao of tao, & thanks!

[kpodhayski]

45 minutes ago, WuDao said:

 

I guess we'll have to disagree on this.

 

My perspective is that Dao flows in all directions, at the same time, in each moment.... and even flow isn't the right word because there is nothing that is not Dao - for Dao to flow against!!

 

Your examples (water path, true nature) are ways we can make our individual dao (way) easier, indeed.

 

And when breathing is hard, Dao is right there down in the shit with us (ZZ), enabling our next breath in the next moment to be easier, if we choose it.

 

To me, there are no 'laws of Dao'. There are, however, laws (tendancies) of physics, and laws (experiences) of what might be more efficacious in this situation or that, all of which can be observed....  but there is no law of Dao, no fixed path of Dao. WuDao.

 

warm greetings

 

Yes, like the law of gravity, which is how I was using the word law.

 

The Dao does not flow. Common misconception. Think of the Dao as the patterns in a terrain. When rain falls on the terrain it follows a certain pattern. That pattern reveals the terrain (Dao), but it is not the terrain (Dao). so yo can flow with the Dao, as water flows down hill.

 

You get that?

 

These guys explain it well. Check it out at about 3:12

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaULzIYPZf8

 

so you can act in a way that is not in accordance to the Dao or against the Dao.  Lao Tzu says; "That which goes against the Tao comes to an early end."  Whenever you are not in a state of Wu Wei you go against the Dao. When you do you are aligned with the Dao.

 

And "Let the kingdom be governed according to the Tâo, and the manes of the departed will not manifest their spiritual energy."

 

Chuang Tzu brings it up several times;

 

"The ancients who regulated the Tâo nourished their faculty of knowledge by their placidity, and all through life abstained from employing that faculty in action;-- they must be pronounced to have (thus also) nourished their placidity by their knowledge."

 

" They left the Tâo, and substituted the Good for it, and pursued the course of Haphazard Virtue."

 

Not only can we go against the Dao, it can be lost and hidden!

 

"When the Tâo was lost, its Characteristics appeared. When its Characteristics were lost, Benevolence appeared. When Benevolence was lost, Righteousness appeared. When Righteousness was lost, Ceremonies appeared. Ceremonies are but (the unsubstantial) flowers of the Tâo, and the commencement of disorder."

 

 

 

[Brian]

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Your humility is admirable, but you're no match for the knight in clueless armor depicted in  that portrait.

Oh, I beg to differ, ma'am -- I rival the most clueless in history on my best days.