Real taiji is real, fake taiji is fake, most taiji today falls in between

[Taomeow]

Yes, it's a spectrum.  People whose eyes can see the spectrum from red to violet but not from infrared to ultraviolet have to rely on hearsay when someone tells them that (e.g.) a pit viper sees from far infrared to deep ultraviolet -- with the skin on the sides of its body at that -- and decide whether to believe it or not without any personal input from any of their own organs.  People who see a part of the taiji spectrum (usually a tiny part) better believe there's more.  But if you are a pit viper, you don't know the words to hiss into the human ear to explain what you can see and how.  It's beyond miscommunication -- it's living in different worlds.

 

The thing with taiji is, the real, the fake and the in between all live in different worlds, and they can't communicate efficiently.   Yet I feel compelled to share a few thoughts around the subject...

 

At the level of the Supreme Ultimate, taijiquan is the kind of martial art tao itself practices -- it's the fight of being against nonbeing, a fight won every time, an eternal triumph.  Tao can't lose to nonbeing because the nature of nonbeing is to engender being.  This is the game of the immortals.  The playing field is eternity, and the ball never stops rolling.   

 

A notch below that, at the level of the Ten Thousand Things, taijiquan is the art of rolling ten thousand things into one ball and being that ball.  You can roll over anyone being that ball of ten thousand things.  Roll back.  Roll over, under, around, on top, on bottom, full speed ahead...  peng, lu, ji, an...  cai, lie, zhou, kao!

 

A notch below that -- you are a hypersensitive yin-yang creature in command of your own ten thousand perceptions, and you assess the situation accurately every time due to this cultivated gongfu.  You know what you can do.  You know what you can't do without having to try and fail -- once you commit to trying, you don't fail, because you've tried it ten thousand times before and know what you can and can't do right now.  As a sister-art's (Shaolin) saying goes, "I don't fear the ten thousand different kicks you've practiced.  I fear the one kick you've practiced ten thousand times."  You don't have any inefficient weapons in your arsenal.  If it's inefficient, you already know it and you won't use it until you've improved on it.  Whatever you use does the job you want it to do.

 

A notch below that -- you are a medium level practitioner of real taiji.  Perhaps you've invested fifteen, twenty years under a great master.  Perhaps he or she or someone else has given you a "taste" of the notch above, of where you're headed if you keep at it.  This keeps you interested and keeps you going.  It wasn't much, but it told you everything you needed to know to keep going.  Sometimes instantaneously.

 

A notch below...  and so on and so forth.

 

Then there's a whole spectrum of "fake" taiji.  At the top there's "fake" that has a chance to go real given the right encounter, if it's your destiny you'll find out.  Or "fake" that has some features of "real" because "real" is the universal laws of being and nonbeing and you may be talented and you may have spontaneously discovered some of them, just a tiny bit.  Or "fake" that is "real" on the level of taiji of the mouth -- you say all the right things but your body can't do them, does not understand those words.  Or "fake" that is full of shit in the head but the body takes over and still manages to overrule that and do a bit of the real thing.  Or utterly, completely fake, disgusting, a self-aggrandizing triumphant abomination, a walking talking fraud.  A trap for the unfortunate among the seekers, a trap sometimes innocent/ignorant, sometimes greed motivated, grandeur mania motivated, self-serving con artistry, you name it.

 

A huge spectrum it is.  "Taijiquan" is like "life" -- just saying the word gives one no idea of what kind of "life" is being discussed, and what kind of taijiquan, and where exactly it is on that spectrum.  

 

So my advice to those who want to invest in unsolicited judgments...  invest in something else.  Judge a book by its cover.  Judge a pudding without eating it.  You will get better return on your investment of effort...

 

[rene]

Glad you were compelled; yes, and as usual, brilliant. (-:

[windwalker]

Has a dog Buddha-nature or not?"

Zhaozhou answered, "Wú"

[Marblehead]

I practice fake Tai Chi, thanks.

 

But my practice of life was real.  And I still do a little of that.

 

[doc benway]

Thank you Taomeow, that was very nice to read.

 

The very assertion that one can judge a system of martial arts from the winner of a sparring match (even true combat) is misguided, IMO. That's why I avoided the 'fake' thread. Taijiquan has never fought in a match, people fight. People are imperfect whether master or disciple, they have strengths and weaknesses, their training methods and emphasis vary, even within a given style and school. No one is a perfect embodiment of taijiquan in this lifetime, though some may come close, and even the greatest of masters and pupils can be defeated on any given Sunday.

 

While some may argue that there is a perfect system or school, I would go back to the adage that there are 3 critical components - system (lineage), master, and pupil. If any of these are deficient, the fruition will be lacking. I think it is healthy to remember that no person and no art is perfect, or even best. What works for one may not work for another. We have different proclivities and needs and it is important to retain some degree of humility and open mindedness in our approach to martial arts and spirituality.

[windwalker]

I look at it a little differently I view taiji itself as a method applied to combative practices.  As such indeed it can be judged in the context that it is used and has been judged in the past by founders of the systems now practiced.

 

"Your sleeve is torn how can this be taiji" said to one of the founders sons,  by the founder his father, after a match with I believe was an  Eagle Claw stylist.

 

The art itself founded on Taoist Origins has been expanded and used for many different things beyond the scope of its roots.  

 

The way in which it is practice and used I believe has changed the view and usage of the art radically.  So much so that the founding place Chen Village did not even use its own art in a recent match against Tai boxers.

 

Why?

Edited June 24, 2017 by windwalker

[Taomeow]

19 minutes ago, windwalker said:

I look at it a little differently I view taiji itself as a method applied to combative practices.  As such indeed it can be judged in the context that it is used and has been judged in the past by founders of the systems now practiced.

 

"Your sleeve is torn how can this be taiji" said to one of the founders sons,  by the founder his father, after a match with I believe was an  Eagle Claw stylist.

 

The art itself founded on Taoist Origins has been expanded and used for many different things beyond the scope of its roots.  

 

The way in which it is practice and used I believe has changed the view and usage of the art radically.  So much so that the founding place Chen Village did not even use its own art in a recent match against Tai boxers.

 

Why?

 

The founding father said it to the son who was his disciple?  You should hear what my teacher says to me on occasion.  But he is my teacher.  He is the person entitled to judge my taiji, our co-creation.  He is the one who gave it to me and I am the one who asked for it and took it for my own.  He is the one entitled to judge if I handle what he gave me well or poorly.  No one else. 

 

And what "recent match" are you referring to?  The one that was staged and publicized in order to distract the public in China from the purge in the government undertaken at that particular moment by its head?  It had nothing whatsoever to do with Chen village.  I've never heard of whatever the style is the sitting duck (or rather, flapping duck) master demonstrated.  Here's what my grandmaster had to say when mentioning the event:

 

 

 

 

[windwalker]

43 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

And what "recent match" are you referring to?  The one that was staged and publicized in order to distract the public in China from the purge in the government undertaken at that particular moment by its head?  It had nothing whatsoever to do with Chen village.  I've never heard of whatever the style is the sitting duck (or rather, flapping duck) master demonstrated.  Here's what my grandmaster had to say when mentioning the event:

 

The match I mentioned was this one.

 

 

You talk about non judgmental and yet you mention

"I've never heard of whatever the style is the sitting duck (or rather, flapping duck) master demonstrated. "

 

Who cares, I don't 

 

What he did was taiji, he was an acknowledged teacher by his students and those that followed him,

one might look as to why the art that he practiced did not work as trained when called on to do  so.  Or maybe it did the training assumptions were not correct. 

 

In other words, one might "judge" that either the training assumptions were faulty or his application  of it was.

 

In any case 

it was his training, nothing that mattered to me,  nor anything I would point to it as an example of what I feel is representative of my own work "taiji"  out side of my work.

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by windwalker

[Taomeow]

I never said "non judgmental," an expression I find profoundly meaningless.   I said, effectively, "don't judge what you don't know."  And, gee, I don't.  I know hard MA.  I know taiji.  I can tell one from the other.  And then there's those countless This Animal's Claw or That Animal's Scales styles that I "judge" as "never heard of them" -- well, that's not "being judgmental," just demonstrating some brain activity, wouldn't you agree?  I said I never heard of it.  It's a fact. 

 

Here's another fact -- didn't watch your video but I see someone in boxing attire wearing boxing gloves.  This is not taiji.  Much less Chen style.  I've been practicing Chen style taiji for many years, as the thirteenth generation practitioner in my particular Chen village lineage.  That's how I know. 

 

Really.  It's not about winning an argument.  It's about not letting what you see on youtube compromise your cognitive functions.  They should, ideally, be derived from personal life's experience.  Am I making sense? 

[Taomeow]

.

Edited June 25, 2017 by Taomeow

[windwalker]

8 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

Really.  It's not about winning an argument.  It's about not letting what you see on youtube compromise your cognitive functions.  They should, ideally, be derived from personal life's experience.  Am I making sense? 

 

no not really but its ok.

I suggest you might want to check up on the match I posted as to what it was billed as representing or not. 

If you feel that our dialog is about winning and argument, you win..

 

"Then there's a whole spectrum of "fake" taiji.  At the top there's "fake" that has a chance to go real given the right encounter, if it's your destiny you'll find out. "

 

I view it as there is a spectrum of what people call taiji,  whether it meets the criteria depends on the understanding of the one viewing it.    

 

 

Edited June 24, 2017 by windwalker

[windwalker]

9 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

I never said "non judgmental," an expression I find profoundly meaningless

 

 

Quote

• Definition of nonjudgmental

1. :  avoiding judgments based on one's personal and especially moral standards

 

Yep I guess it is meaningless...

[Taomeow]

Just now, windwalker said:

 

no not really

 

 

 

Then I hope we're done.  I can't do better than me.  Me is someone who makes no sense to you.  I can totally live with that. 

[Taomeow]

Taijiquan, the Supreme Ultimate Fist

 

 

[cold]

Wow!