Long men pai nei gong and mo pai

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Wayne Dyer's Rule #6 comes to mind: Don't take yourself so god damn seriously. 

 

If we can't laugh at ourselves or accept that sometimes we all get to play the role of the fool and be laughed at, then boy, life is sure going to make us miserable as people push our buttons. 

 

No conspiracy for the world to get any one person or group--just a came of hot potato and being a fool until you've passed it to the next person. 

 

Apparently, it becomes very evident if +π is the topic of discussion. 

 

 

 

I think at least for me personally this is so frustrating because this is serious, this is something that would change the way humanity looks at the universe, it isn't a faith based belief, but rather a matter of fact that anyone can come see for themselves.

 

Having a bunch of people laugh and joke about it is maddening, because it is something that could change everything. 

 

Imagine having the cure for cancer, and proof of it, only to have everyone on earth refuse to listen, and refuse to examine the evidence because "it's too good to be true". 

 

I believe something similar happened to the doctor who originally discovered germs, Ignaz Semmelweis.  He proved that by disinfecting instruments with chloride of lime, washing linens, and strict hygiene and hand washing that he could bring the death rates of pregnant mothers and babies down to the level seen by midwives.  Prior to this they were 9 times more likely to die because of infection if they used a doctor instead. 

 

They treated him as insane even though he could absolutely prove the numbers, a direct cause and effect relationship.

 

At that time germs were crazy talk, and his constant writing to medical journals and societies eventually caused them to have him committed to an insane asylum where ironically he was cut and died of septicemia (bacterial blood poisoning).

 

So that's where we are, here with proof of some new frontier, that until this point has only been probed by a handful of people out of billions, and no one cares, and no listens. 

 

It's all crazy talk. 

 

So yeah it is maddening.

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Ilovecoffee]

Just now, Earl Grey said:

 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

Translation TLDR.

[Kar3n]

15 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

 

 

I think at least for me personally this is so frustrating because this is serious, this is something that would change the way humanity looks at the universe, it isn't a faith based belief, but rather a matter of fact that anyone can come see for themselves.

 

Having a bunch of people laugh and joke about it is maddening, because it is something that could change everything. 

 

Imagine having the cure for cancer, and proof of it, only to have everyone on earth refuse to listen, and refuse to examine the evidence because "it's too good to be true". 

 

I believe something similar happened to the doctor who originally discovered germs, Ignaz Semmelweis.  He proved that by disinfecting instruments with chloride of lime, washing linens, and strict hygiene and hand washing that he could bring the death rates of pregnant mothers and babies down to the level seen by midwives.  Prior to this they were 9 times more likely to die because of infection if they used a doctor instead. 

 

They treated him as insane even though he could absolutely prove the numbers, a direct cause and effect relationship.

 

At that time germs were crazy talk, and his constant writing to medical journals and societies eventually caused them to have him committed to an insane asylum where ironically he was cut and died of septicemia (bacterial blood poisoning).

 

So that's where we are, here with proof of some new frontier, that until this point has only probed by a handful of people out of billions, and no one cares, and no listens. 

 

It's all crazy talk. 

 

So yeah it is maddening.

 

I hear what you are saying, I and my friends, fellow practitioners, have faced a lot of scrutiny on TDB, yet we still remain.

 

I think that the main issue folks have is that everyone that comes here speaking about MoPai says the exact same thing. It is all about the John Chang video and what he achieved. There is never any personal experience shared, e.g. how has your practice has improved your life, how has your perspective changed when looking at the world around you? The sharing is what engages folks. Sure there will be some naysayers, there always are, but if just a single person were to take up the path you are intimately sharing, would it not be worth it?

 

Stepping out of our own comfort zone is the hardest part. It is still sometimes difficult for me to discuss the energetic process of how I practice because many folks just do not agree. I simply state my case and let people know that I am not seeking approval or validation, I am simply sharing. It is really up to each individual to accept it or not. 

 

I hope my openness has given you some insight into that MoPai is not the only group to have ever been critically examined on TDB (likely not to be the last) and that it is still possible to be part of the community and contribute in spite of it all.

[Ilovecoffee]

17 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

I hear what you are saying, I and my friends, fellow practitioners, have faced a lot of scrutiny on TDB, yet we still remain.

 

I think that the main issue folks have is that everyone that comes here speaking about MoPai says the exact same thing. It is all about the John Chang video and what he achieved. There is never any personal experience shared, e.g. how has your practice has improved your life, how has your perspective changed when looking at the world around you? The sharing is what engages folks. Sure there will be some naysayers, there always are, but if just a single person were to take up the path you are intimately sharing, would it not be worth it?

 

Stepping out of our own comfort zone is the hardest part. It is still sometimes difficult for me to discuss the energetic process of how I practice because many folks just do not agree. I simply state my case and let people know that I am not seeking approval or validation, I am simply sharing. It is really up to each individual to accept it or not. 

 

I hope my openness has given you some insight into that MoPai is not the only group to have ever been critically examined on TDB (likely not to be the last) and that it is still possible to be part of the community and contribute in spite of it all.

 

The problem that you are not grasping Kar3n is that there is no way to talk about our experiences and not have everyone look at us like we have three heads.   This isn't something that can be believed on personal testimony, anymore than claiming to have talked to aliens.   This is something that can only be believed via your own first hand observation.   If someone else claimed to have experienced the sames things I have, I would have to dismiss them as delusional.

 

Also my personal experiences aren't all puppies and rainbows, most of them are very dark, and that doesn't sell well. People want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, and there is no way to say otherwise without becoming the bad guy. MoPai exists to fix a problem most don't believe exists, and wouldn't believe were true if they were told about it.   Again it is something that requires you to see directly for yourself to believe it.

 

Furthermore we aren't interested in speaking with people that would be swayed or convinced by personal testimony, we want rational, logical, critical thinking individuals that are willing to come see for themselves.  Anyone who would just accept the words of some random person online is someone we can safely rule out as a prospect.

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, X2471990 said:

Wu Ming Jen guess what no one taught you anything because the chinky chin chins know your nothing but a dirty cunt liberal and your life doesn't matter your not special no one is you get what you get and don't get upset

 

I especially likes it when they sooo worked up the spelling grammar and syntax breaks down  

 

 

Wait !  Was it there  unbroken in the first place ? 

[Brian]

55 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

 

 

I think at least for me personally this is so frustrating because this is serious, this is something that would change the way humanity looks at the universe, it isn't a faith based belief, but rather a matter of fact that anyone can come see for themselves.

 

Having a bunch of people laugh and joke about it is maddening, because it is something that could change everything. 

 

Imagine having the cure for cancer, and proof of it, only to have everyone on earth refuse to listen, and refuse to examine the evidence because "it's too good to be true". 

 

I believe something similar happened to the doctor who originally discovered germs, Ignaz Semmelweis.  He proved that by disinfecting instruments with chloride of lime, washing linens, and strict hygiene and hand washing that he could bring the death rates of pregnant mothers and babies down to the level seen by midwives.  Prior to this they were 9 times more likely to die because of infection if they used a doctor instead. 

 

They treated him as insane even though he could absolutely prove the numbers, a direct cause and effect relationship.

 

At that time germs were crazy talk, and his constant writing to medical journals and societies eventually caused them to have him committed to an insane asylum where ironically he was cut and died of septicemia (bacterial blood poisoning).

 

So that's where we are, here with proof of some new frontier, that until this point has only been probed by a handful of people out of billions, and no one cares, and no listens. 

 

It's all crazy talk. 

 

So yeah it is maddening.

 

How has your practice of Mo Pai changed you and your life?  I suspect most readers would be more interested, honestly, in hearing how this practice might influence/alter/effect them than hearing about how someone with whom they will never interact was able to light an LED or stick a chopstick in a table.  Seriously.  This is not a slight to John Chang or the art or your group -- tell people how your practice have positively changed you in a manner which doesn't involve casting aspersions on everything other than Mo Pai and you will have done more for the respect of your group and your practice than all the other attempts over the last few years combined.

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Kar3n said:

Yes, it was.  

 

A small cooling off period seemed to have helped.

 

It is now in the pit, and the topic has gone so far south, I do not see the point in keeping it locked.

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Kar3n said:

If only I were 45 years younger...

 

 

"Where have you been all my life ! ? " 

 

 

 

 

"Well ... for the first 45 years of it, I wasnt born yet . " 

 

 

 

 

(It has been a while since we been 'in the pit '   ; 

 

 

 

 

Eeeeee  - haaa r r r  ! 

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

1 minute ago, Brian said:

How has your practice of Mo Pai changed you and your life?  I suspect most readers would be more interested, honestly, in hearing how this practice might influence/alter/effect them than hearing about how someone with whom they will never interact was able to light an LED or stick a chopstick in a table.  Seriously.  This is not a slight to John Chang or the art or your group -- tell people how your practice have positively changed you in a manner which doesn't involve casting aspersions on everything other than Mo Pai and you will have done more for the respect of your group and your practice than all the other attempts over the last few years combined.

 

When I was a child I grew up with a sense of security.  2+2=4, up is up, down is down, left is left, and right is right.  There is no such thing as the Bogeyman,  there is no such thing as ghosts.  When we die we go to heaven.  Everything is going to be alright.

 

MoPai took all that, and hit me upside the head with a Louisville slugger.

 

My entire view of the universe pulled backwards up my intestinal track and forced me vomit it out on the sidewalk.

 

Now, I don't know where the **** I am, or what is going on. 

 

All I know is the entire paradigm that was forced into my skull since birth was a bunch of bull****.

 

What is so frustrating is interacting with people so blissfully unaware of the reality available to them, just below the surface, and so convinced it doesn't exist. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

8 hours ago, Kar3n said:

He just wanted to make sure I know how he really feels. I hope it did him some good to get it off of his chest.

 

Sticks and stones...

 

     when I come here, for some reason I expect at least one or two 'enlightened souls '   .....  mostly they laugh when poked, as why should that affect them ?    But no   ..... 

 

 

 thanks for restoring my 'faith'    

 

[Brian]

2 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

When I was a child I grew up with a sense of security.  2+2=4, up is up, down is down, left is left, and right is right.  There is no such thing as the Bogeyman,  there is no such thing as ghosts.  When we die we go to heaven.  Everything is going to be alright.

 

MoPai took all that, and hit me upside the head with a Louisville slugger.

 

My entire view of the universe pulled backwards up my intestinal track and forced me vomit it out on the sidewalk.

 

Now, I don't know where the **** I am, or what is going on. 

 

All I know is the entire paradigm that was forced into my skull since birth was a bunch of bull****.

 

What is so frustrating is interacting with people so blissfully unaware of the reality available to them, just below the surface, and so convinced it doesn't exist. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

How much time do you spend practicing?  Per day/week/whatever

 

Have you moved beyond level 1?  How long did that take?

[Ilovecoffee]

Just now, Brian said:

How much time do you spend practicing?  Per day/week/whatever

 

Have you moved beyond level 1?  How long did that take?

 

Not a topic for discussion here.

 

[Nungali]

9 hours ago, Brian said:

 

That's the only part of your post you are going to correct?  Hardly seems worth the effort if you are going to leave so much else of it wrong...

 

 More pie Godan examination ; 

1. sit there with eyes closed and avoid this blow .

2, perform Chinto kata

3. get expelled from Dao bums 

 

OR

-  been here a while ?  Sleeper agent ?    They plant em ya know !    Then  ages later they awaken ... they might not even know they are one.  

 

 

" Right then !  Ya pack of c***s  !    "        

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, Marblehead said:

It is an expression of the quality of his cultivation.

 

 

 

Mine, at present , is broccolini  . 

[Kar3n]

15 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

The problem that you are not grasping Kar3n is that there is no way to talk about our experiences and not have everyone look at us like we have three heads.   This isn't something that can be believed on personal testimony, anymore than claiming to have talked to aliens.   This is something that can only be believed via your own first hand observation.   If someone else claimed to have experienced the sames things I have, I would have to dismiss them as delusional.

 

Also my personal experiences aren't all puppies and rainbows, most of them are very dark, and that doesn't sell well. People want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, and there is no way to say otherwise without becoming the bad guy. MoPai exists to fix a problem most don't believe exists, and wouldn't believe were true if they were told about it.   Again it is something that requires you to see directly for yourself to believe it.

 

Furthermore we aren't interested in speaking with people that would be swayed or convinced by personal testimony, we want rational, logical, critical thinking individuals that are willing to come see for themselves.  Anyone who would just accept the words of some random person online is someone we can safely rule out as a prospect.

Thanks for the explanation, and I do understand far more than you might believe and know exactly what you are talking about on many of the points you raise about being dismissed, called delusional and heavy, dark experiences. However, with all due respect, I have to ask why you are here and what is your intent?

 

You have been encouraged, asked questions, and identified with and at every turn you refuse depart from the typical MoPai rhetoric. Is this some sort of test for you guys, a marker that you are a faithful, loyal students and can continue on the MoPai path? I am not trying to be disrespectful, I am genuinely curious as to why one would join an open discussion forum and decline to interact on a personal level, especially when conversing about something they are so seemingly passionate about.

 

Best of wishes, Ilovecoffe. I hope that you achieve all that you are working toward.

 

[Nungali]

33 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

When I was a child I grew up with a sense of security.  2+2=4, up is up, down is down, left is left, and right is right.  There is no such thing as the Bogeyman,  there is no such thing as ghosts.  When we die we go to heaven.  Everything is going to be alright.

 

MoPai took all that, and hit me upside the head with a Louisville slugger.

 

In a way , that is the 'third initiation '  *    the first is  as a human (  birth as a 'natural creature' ), then as a 'man or  woman'  ( a social and cultural member , the natural 'animal' becomes 'a social  person ' ) , then the social person becomes a 'magical person' .  Nowadays, in  modern societies each must find  these as they can . 

 

* as usual, I am speaking from a cross time and location general cultural 'human experience' , not a specific one . 

 

I can understand your process .    Maybe it was a bit like Buddha leaving his protective garden .

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

My entire view of the universe pulled backwards up my intestinal track and forced me vomit it out on the sidewalk.

 

Now, I don't know where the **** I am, or what is going on. 

 

That's unfortunate as, in societies groups or clans that teach these things , what you are lacking here should have been an intrinsic part of your ' initiation ' .   

 

 

33 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

All I know is the entire paradigm that was forced into my skull since birth was a bunch of bull****.

 

 after a successful stage 3 , stage 4 should allow incorporation of both those . 

 

The scale swings from side to side, ever gradually decreasing in its arc from the original disruption. I hope you come to balance and stability .

 

 

33 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

What is so frustrating is interacting with people so blissfully unaware of the reality available to them, just below the surface, and so convinced it doesn't exist. 

 

 Try Interacting  with people in the way  and within the fields , that you can interact with them .   Some people are unaware , some are not , some might even be  ' hidden teachers' , encouraging you or 'pushing your buttons'  . 

 

I think this forum is full of people that are open to  various realities  .     

 

Maybe its 'specific understandings of certain realities '  ?   In this case , it would be akin to heresy  ...

 

... which is a much worse crime than non-belief !   ( Apparently  )    ( a bit of theological humor there )  

 

[Ilovecoffee]

42 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

 I am genuinely curious as to why one would join an open discussion forum and decline to interact on a personal level

 

 

Because personal interaction isn't possible, this is something each person has to see directly for themselves.

 

42 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

I have to ask why you are here and what is your intent?

 

 

It should be pretty obvious no? Too look for others who are tired of systems that have no good objective evidence behind them, and cannot be validated via first hand observation, and want a system that does and can be.

 

42 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

I do understand far more than you might believe and know exactly what you are talking about on many of the points you raise about being dismissed

 

 

I realize you are trying to be nice here, but to be honest this comes off more as patronizing than anything else.  I don't see how you could know exactly what we are talking about and not be on the roof of your house screaming about it.  What I am talking about is real, like touching a live 220v line to your tongue real, like you were just in a car accident, and are bleeding out your ears real. What we see here are lots of people who do pretty dances, and talk about philosophies, but no one concerned with things that can be proven absolutely to exist on this level.  This is something different, something real, something tangible, something anyone can see for themselves without faith in anything or anyone. 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Kar3n]

46 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Because personal interaction isn't possible, this is something each person has to see directly for themselves.

 

 

It should be pretty obvious no? Too look for others who are tired of systems that have no good objective evidence behind them, and cannot be validated via first hand observation, and want a system that does and can be.

 

 

While I realize you are trying to be nice here, but to be honest this comes off more as patronizing than anything else.  I don't see how you could know exactly what we are talking about and not be on the roof of your house screaming about it.  What I am talking about is real, like touching a live 220v line to your tongue real.  Like you were just in a car accident, and are bleeding out your ears real. What we see here are lots of people who do pretty dances, and talk about philosophies, but no one concerned with things that can be proven absolutely to exist on this level.  This is something different, something real, something tangible, something anyone can see for themselves without faith in anything or anyone. 

 

 

Again, I can relate to what you are saying, many bums can. There are many systems practiced on TDB; finding balance between passion for our respective practices and respect for one another is invaluable. I hope we can all take at least that much away from the interactions over the last few days and expand from there.

 

Best,

Karen

[Aeran]

3 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

 

“At the deepest level, there are really only three kinds
of aura,” he continued, “white, black, and yellow. These
colors reflect the innermost essence of our being. A white
aura is that of a soul who is good at heart, a black aura is
of one who is evil in the end. A yellow aura is that of a
person who is at complete peace with the Universe. In
our school, one must have attained this tranquillity to pass
on to Level Four.”

 

The cool thing about books is that anyone can quote them:

 

Quote

It should be noted that not everyone can become like John Chang, just as not everyone can become an Olympic athlete; still, almost every able-bodied person can be taught to run, and if not to run, at least to jog. Level Two is somewhat like that. Almost anyone with the right degree of perseverance and discipline can complete it (though it might take as long as fifteen years). As far as becoming like Chang Sifu, however, perhaps one man in a thousand can achieve this. If that many.

 

Quote

Not everyone can become like me—there are certain qualifications—but some people can. What I am is a product of discipline and training as much as natural talent.

 

Quote

He saw something else, too, something that excited him considerably, though he did not show it, of course. The boy had the talent. Not one man in one thousand could become like he was. His skill was similar to that of the greatest Olympic athletes; not only did you have to have the God-born gift, but you also had to suffer through decades of hard discipline to reach the final prize.

 

- Magus of Java

 

Quote

“Last week I went into meditation and asked my master1why none of my students had managed to combine yin and yang in their dantien 2 and finish Level Four.” Grandmaster Liao, John Chang’s teacher, had died in 1962, but his consciousness was still accessible to my ownmaster somewhere beyond space-time. “What did hesay?” “He said that this level of power is a gift granted by such laws as govern the Universe, and is not subject to individual humanwill. It isa part ofa person’saura.” I was silent. John sensed my question. “At the deepest level, there are really only three kinds ofaura,” he continued, “white, black, and yellow. These colors reflect theinnermostessence of our being. Awhite aurais that ofasoulwho is good at heart, a black aurais of one who is evil in the end. Ayellow aura is that ofa person who is at complete peace with the Universe. In our school, one must haveattained this tranquillity to pass on to Level Four.” He paused. “In other lineages, this is on to Level Four.” He paused. “In other lineages, this is not always the case.” John shook himself, as if an unpleasant thought had invaded his privacy. I was tempted to ask, butstood quiet instead. “In each generation, Kosta,” he continued, “only one student has becomelikeIam—at least until now.” My breath caught in my throat. “What color is my aura?”I blurted out withouta hint ofsubtlety. “I don’t know.” He raised a hand to silence my protest. “I can see the deepest color of your aura only when I am at full power, during the times when I am training in the mountains. Not now.”

 

Quote

When I was younger, I dreamed of becoming a fighter pilot, but failed the eye exam. There was nothing I could do—no effort onmy partcould help me overcome a congenital deficiency in circumstances where rigid standards were necessary. Likewise in nei kung training there are prerequisites that must be met in order to advance. Failing to meet these, it is best not to be overly ambitious. Could I accomplish the training? And if I couldn’t develop abilities like John’s, would I at least manage to complete the Third Level of Power in this lifetime?

 

- Nei Kung: Secret Teachings of the Warrior Sages

 

Quote

2. As to your knowledge, has there ever been any Indonesian to ever complete the base training of mopai to the point of "Fusion of Yin & Yang"? or not? Is there anyone in the Indonesian school to have achieved likeness like Chang with electrogenesis and pyrokinesis etc, or have all the students not been able to fuse their yin and yang?

 

Answer: No. There are some who have developed very unusual abilities, extraordinary abilities, as did I when I was training, but none like Sifu John. Please understand, this is completely logical. In the history of this lineage, there were only ever one or two students in each generation, with the Headmaster recognizing the latent talent of the newcomer when he appeared. Sifu John was not at a level where he could see this, so he opted for a democratic approach, figuring he would let Nature sort things out. But you cannot be a fighter pilot unless you have perfect eyesight. It may be (and is likely) that no one will follow him, that instead the lineage will continue in a different form. And this is completely OK.

 

- Kosta Danaos, Daobums interview

 

And that is, of course, putting aside the fact that nobody within your group has instructions that go past the second or third level anyway.

 

I'm going to repeat the questions you removed from the other thread because I'm genuinely curious as to your response, and I think they're issues which are well worth raising in the context of this discussions:

 

 

1 - Is there anyone who has a serious claim to have completed level 1 who has not trained under John Chang or one of his direct students, using only the instructions given by your group?

 

2 - If so, how would this claim be validated? What proof do you offer that it is possible to achieve even level 1 without the guidance of a teacher from within the official lineage?

 

3 - More generally, what proof do you offer that the instructions you give on your website are valid? There are many sources claiming to offer instruction in the Mo Pai method - why should someone believe that your group is the sole legitimate one, as you claim?

 

4 - In his second book, Danaos emphasizes that within the Mo Pai system, seated practice must be accompanied by standing practice to circulate the Qi, otherwise the Qi will "harden" in the Lower Dantien and the student will be stuck at level 1, unable to progress. If this is such an important issue, why does your group encourage people to use your instructions to practice the seated training, but make no mention of this on your website (that I can see - if it's there, then by all means correct me)?

 

5 - More generally, if a problem emerged in the training of someone using the methods espoused by your group, how would they diagnose and address that problem so as to not cause themselves serious harm, without the guidance of an experienced master? This strikes me as especially important, since Kosta said in his DB interview:

 

Quote

2) Does MoPai pose any particular health risks? And if so, how much of this is due to malpractice vs detoxing?

 

Answer: I know of no one who has not suffered some kind of complication. I believe that this is because the techniques were originally developed for use by hermits/monks.

 

And an addition one:

 

6) In his DB interview, Kosta said:

 

Quote

 If you are interested in achieving transcendence of the spirit via a method similar to the MoPai, then I would counsel following the path of Tibetan Buddhism from a good teacher of the Naropa yogas, though you must be prepared to dedicate twelve years of your life

 

Why not follow this advice if you take Kosta's word as seriously as you seem to? It seems like a far more logical route than hoping that you have the proper instructions and hoping that you can interpret and implement them properly and then hoping that after a decade or two of self training you can find a teacher (of which you seem to believe there are no more than 10, globally) who will tell you that you have the "1/1000 yellow aura" and that they can take you to the next level?

Edited June 28, 2017 by Aeran

[Ilovecoffee]

Your questions will remain unanswered here, because no matter the answer it will be used as a ammunition to attack and criticize. 

 

Kosta realizes he has to send seekers in some direction, and he chose Tibetan Buddhism, but it is a dead spiritual path.  Even the few beginning levels of MoPai offer more than anything it could offer us. 

 

 

 

[Aeran]

1 minute ago, Ilovecoffee said:

Your questions will remain unanswered here, because no matter the answer it will be used as a ammunition to attack and criticize. 

 

I note that you were happy to answer when you thought you could simply throw a quote at me :/

 

To be honest, that seems like a cop out. You're going to insist that every other system is "role play" while yours is legitimate, and that everyone else's experiences are imaginary while yours are real, and yet when challenged to back that up you simply refuse? Bad enough that you won't debate in good faith, but it's an especially poor show from someone who claims to base their views on logic and rationality.

 

Something else to ponder: if the only outcome of answering a question is that the information contained in that answe will provide fuel to opposing opinions, perhaps you should go back over that information and re-consider your opinions?

 

 I would personally be very concerned if I was in the position of attempting to defend a group and their opinions and behavior and yet unable to provide a response to set of simple, rational questions for fear that those answers would incriminate and could be used to criticize. 

 

1 minute ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Kosta realizes he has to send seekers in some direction, and he chose Tibetan Buddhism,

 

Do you know this from Kosta himself, or is it merely an assumption?

 

1 minute ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

but it is a dead spiritual path.

 

What are you basing this evaluation on? Why would you treat Kosta's books like scripture, but reject his later statements?

 

1 minute ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

  Even the few beginning levels of MoPai offer more than anything it could offer us. 

 

 

Again, what are you basing this on? 

[Ilovecoffee]

Goodbye Aeran,

 

Our conversation is finished here.

[Aeran]

6 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Common problems when Mo Pai comes up:

 

1) Tell us about Mo Pai.

 

"No, you won't understand it. You can't understand it. It's too powerful

 

2) Okay, well, I like practice X or practice Y. 

 

"It's fake. Show me a video or else it's nothing but a scam."

 

3) I don't have a video but I've done this for 20 years. 

 

"Your personal experience doesn't mean anything. Mo Pai is real. It can be proven. You can't prove your practice. So it's fake."

 

4) That's pretty disrespectful for what I do. No wonder nobody wants to hear about Mo Pai. You don't respect others and their practice.  

 

"We have a video and scientific proof. You don't. And you'll insult us no matter what we say and so we won't talk about it."

 

5) I'm just asking. 

 

"I won't answer. You can't understand. And whatever I say will be judged."

 

Repeat until personal insults come and thread gets thrown into the pit. Members banned or frustrated. Life goes on and everyone lives happily ever after until Mo Pai is discussed again. 

 

 

 

 

Full speed ahead!

 

But seriously, I think it's worth making at least a thorough initial attempt to seriously question some of the fundamental dogmas of MPG and his weird little e-cult whenever they pop up, not because it's core members are likely to change their mind, but so that there are valid, well articulated alternative opinions on the subject which point out the flaws in their thinking for when other people browsing the internet looking for information on the subject come across these discussions. 

 

 

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[Ilovecoffee]

12 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Common problems when Mo Pai comes up:

 

1) Tell us about Mo Pai.

 

"No, you won't understand it. You can't understand it. It's too powerful

 

2) Okay, well, I like practice X or practice Y. 

 

"It's fake. Show me a video or else it's nothing but a scam."

 

3) I don't have a video but I've done this for 20 years. 

 

"Your personal experience doesn't mean anything. Mo Pai is real. It can be proven. You can't prove your practice. So it's fake."

 

4) That's pretty disrespectful for what I do. No wonder nobody wants to hear about Mo Pai. You don't respect others and their practice.  

 

"We have a video and scientific proof. You don't. And you'll insult us no matter what we say and so we won't talk about it."

 

5) I'm just asking. 

 

"I won't answer. You can't understand. And whatever I say will be judged."

 

Repeat until personal insults come and thread gets thrown into the pit. Members banned or frustrated. Life goes on and everyone lives happily ever after until Mo Pai is discussed again. 

 

That certainly is one way to spin it Earl.

 

More accurately our position is,  Here is the evidence, here is the practice go see for yourself the truth of the matter, base your beliefs on your own first hand observations.

 

We aren't interested in anything that doesn't have at least the same degree of objective evidence behind it that MoPai does, and we aren't interested in personal testimony.

 

If that seems rude and insulting, too bad so sad.

 

 

[Aeran]

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Goodbye Aeran,

 

Our conversation is finished here.

 

 

The funny thing is, I suspect that it isn't. If you're anything like the rest of your group, I suspect that if I keep replying you'll do the exact same. Let's see how that plays out.

 

It's a shame that you crumple the moment someone poses a half-reasoned rebuttal to your group's talking points. What happened to all the talk about reason and logic and what not?

 

At least now I know you're not MPG under another name - he stuck it out till the bitter end.