Long men pai nei gong and mo pai

[Ilovecoffee]

5 minutes ago, Aeran said:

 

 

 

 

Full speed ahead!

 

But seriously, I think it's worth making at least a thorough initial attempt to seriously question some of the fundamental dogmas of MPG and his weird little e-cult whenever they pop up, not because it's core members are likely to change their mind, but so that there are valid, well articulated alternative opinions on the subject which point out the flaws in their thinking for when other people browsing the internet looking for information on the subject come across these discussions. 

 

 

 

A cult where you base your beliefs on the best objective evidence available to you, and your own first hand observations.

 

If we are a cult, it is a cult of rationality and free thought.

[Ilovecoffee]

1 minute ago, Aeran said:

 

The funny thing is, I suspect that it isn't. If you're anything like the rest of your group, I suspect that if I keep replying you'll do the exact same. Let's see how that plays out.

 

It's a shame that you crumple the moment someone poses a half-reasoned rebuttal to your group's talking points. What happened to all the talk about reason and logic and what not?

 

At least now I know you're not MPG under another name - he stuck it out till the bitter end.

 

 

 

Goodbye my friend.

[Aeran]

Just now, Ilovecoffee said:

 

A cult where you base your beliefs on the best objective evidence available to you, and your own first hand observations.

 

If we are a cult, it is a cult of rationality and free thought.

 

Rationality and free thought which rejects dialogue the moment it challenges your stance? 

[Ilovecoffee]

2 minutes ago, Aeran said:

 

Rationality and free thought which rejects dialogue the moment it challenges your stance? 

 

There is a limit to what the administration here allows for, and the fight you want to pick is outside the scope of that.

 

With all due respect, I wish you the best but want nothing more to do with you.

 

Goodbye and best wishes.

[Aeran]

6 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

There is a limit to what the administration here allows for, and the fight you want to pick is outside the scope of that.

 

I posed genuine questions in a respectful format, entirely rational in their content and backed up by the sources which you yourself accept as valid. I sincerely doubt the administration here would have a problem with you answering those questions in a similar manner - the onus for refusal is on you alone.

 

[Ilovecoffee]

Just now, Earl Grey said:

 

Shrug. We only have your word and constant cycle where you don't want to elaborate on anything. So if you want us to take your word for it while giving nothing but the same video and broken record, it's a bit of a hard sell when you don't show any reciprocity.

 

I am not sure "don't want to" is an accurate statement. 

 

In the past certain aspects of training were discussed in public and used to beat other members over the head with at every turn. 

 

Want to, but can't due to the hostile environment, would be a better statement.

 

Also you assume that the people we are looking for care about personal testimony, and think like you do. 

 

That assumption is incorrect.

 

The people we are looking for are starving for something real, and are sick of all these imaginary systems.  They want hard objective evidence, and a system they can validate via their own first hand observation.  For people with that mindset, we can offer them quite a lot.  People who will believe anything just because Joe Blow on thedaobums claims he talked to ascended cloud master in Ecuador,  not so much.

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

1 minute ago, Aeran said:

 

I posed genuine questions in a respectful format, entirely rational in their content and backed up by the sources which you yourself accept as valid. I sincerely doubt the administration here would have a problem with you answering those questions in a similar manner - the onus for refusal is on you alone.

 

 

As nicely as possible:

 

I could not care less about your questions.  I explained to you we aren't having this conversation, and were not.  That's the end of the road for us here friend, and I hope you comprehend that.

 

Goodbye and best wishes on your path.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Aeran]

Just now, Ilovecoffee said:

 

As nicely as possible:

 

I could care less about your questions.  I explained to you we aren't having this conversation, and were not.  That's the end of the road for us here friend, and I hope you comprehend that.

 

Goodbye and best wishes on your path.

 

I talk and you talk and then I talk - that seems like a conversation to me.

 

It is, of course, entirely your choice as to whether you answer my questions or not, but refusing to do so (especially after being willing to answer my initial question when you thought you could shut it down with a simple book quote) reflects extremely poorly on your claims to logic and rationality. Especially when you admit that the reason for refusing to take part in debate is because you wish to avoid answers that reflect poorly on your arguments and your group.

[Ilovecoffee]

If you say so, goodbye and best wishes.

[Aeran]

2 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

If you say so, goodbye and best wishes.

 

 

Quote

 

[Ilovecoffee]

Aeran,

 

Unfortunately how this will play out is 5 or 6 questions, will turn into 500 sub points of argument, and then everyone and their brother will show up to argue more, so make that another 500 each per member that shows up, and somewhere around page 100 of this thread I will be banned for no apparent reason other than I am annoying someone who sits on a ban hammer, or the thread gets locked and you strut of as if you are victorious.

 

There is no way I can win here, were this a private forum, and I had you under a NDA where you couldn't legally come back and discuss what we talked about here, maybe it would be worth the months of my life I'd have to sink into arguing with you.

 

To be honest it's just not worth it to me.

 

I hope that satisfies you a bit more.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Nungali]

55 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Common problems when Mo Pai comes up:

 

1) Tell us about Mo Pai.

 

"No, you won't understand it. You can't understand it. It's too powerful

 

2) Okay, well, I like practice X or practice Y. 

 

"It's fake. Show me a video or else it's nothing but a scam."

 

3) I don't have a video but I've done this for 20 years. 

 

"Your personal experience doesn't mean anything. Mo Pai is real. It can be proven. You can't prove your practice. So it's fake."

 

4) That's pretty disrespectful for what I do. No wonder nobody wants to hear about Mo Pai. You don't respect others and their practice.  

 

"We have a video and scientific proof. You don't. And you'll insult us no matter what we say and so we won't talk about it."

 

5) I'm just asking. 

 

"I won't answer. You can't understand. And whatever I say will be judged."

 

Repeat until personal insults come and thread gets thrown into the pit. Members banned or frustrated. Life goes on and everyone lives happily ever after until Mo Pai is discussed again. 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Nungali

[Aeran]

1 minute ago, Ilovecoffee said:

Aeran,

 

Unfortunately how this will play out is 5 or 6 questions, will turn into 100 sub points of argument, and then everyone and there brother will show up to argue more, so make that another 100 each per member that shows up, and somewhere around page 100 of this thread I will be banned for no apparent reason other than I am annoying someone who sits on a ban hammer, or the thread gets locked and you strut of as if you are victorious.

 

There is no way I can win here, were this a private forum, and I had you under an NDA where you couldn't legally come back and discuss what we talked about here, maybe it would be worth the months of my life I'd have to sink into arguing with you.

 

To be honest it's just not worth it to me.

 

I hope that satisfies you a bit more.

 

That's simply part and parcel with free intellectual discourse. It comes with the whole "rationality and logic" thing, you can't have the latter without the former. And there are alternatives to the chaotic free-for-all you described - we could easily have undertaken a structured debate the first time I posted my questions in the other thread, where you had full control over the flow of the discussion. Instead, you used that control to shut it down entirely. Or you could have replied in a PM and undertaken a two-way conversation in that context.

 

If it's not worth it to you, then why did you create an account, wait a year for someone to start a discussion on the Mo Pai, then leap in and post 77 times over 4 days in the exact manner you described? You knew exactly what you were signing up for when you came here and started trotting out the same old doctrines your group always puts forward - you can see how it would look like a cop out to then suddenly bow out when a particular set of uncomfortable questions are raised, especially since you've continued the back and forth afterwards. You respond compulsively but refuse to answer challenging questions for fear of self incrimination - that must be an uncomfortable position to be in.

 

As for being satisfied, I knew it was 50/50 at best that you'd reply at all, and that there was no chance that the following discussion would result in anything other than you repeating the same talking points MPG used to drop here ad nauseum - as I said, my questions are at least as much for anyone else who might wander across this discussion in the future as they are for you. And, of course, I've got time to kill before I go to practice RolePlayQuan with my RolePlay teacher

 

[Ilovecoffee]

4 minutes ago, Aeran said:

 

That's simply part and parcel with free intellectual discourse. It comes with the whole "rationality and logic" thing, you can't have the latter without the former. And there are alternatives to the chaotic free-for-all you described - we could easily have undertaken a structured debate the first time I posted my questions in the other thread, where you had full control over the flow of the discussion. Instead, you used that control to shut it down entirely. Or you could have replied in a PM and undertaken a two-way conversation in that context.

 

If it's not worth it to you, then why did you create an account, wait a year for someone to start a discussion on the Mo Pai, then leap in and post 77 times over 4 days in the exact manner you described? You knew exactly what you were signing up for when you came here and started trotting out the same old doctrines your group always puts forward - you can see how it would look like a cop out to then suddenly bow out when a particular set of uncomfortable questions are raised, especially since you've continued the back and forth afterwards. You respond compulsively but refuse to answer challenging questions for fear of self incrimination - that must be an uncomfortable position to be in.

 

As for being satisfied, I knew it was 50/50 at best that you'd reply at all, and that there was no chance that the following discussion would result in anything other than you repeating the same talking points MPG used to drop here ad nauseum - as I said, my questions are at least as much for anyone else who might wander across this discussion in the future as they are for you. And, of course, I've got time to kill before I go to practice RolePlayQuan with my RolePlay teacher

 

 

If you were to sign an NDA with a large monetary penalty attached, with the agreement that it was the last time you discuss MoPai online, and it occurred in a private forum, then I might consider it, otherwise not worth my trouble.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Aeran]

1 minute ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

If you were to sign an NDA with a large monetary penalty attached, with the agreement that it was the last time you discuss MoPai online, then I might consider it, otherwise not worth my trouble.

 

 

 

 

 

Firstly, we need to address that you've changed your tune here, twice. Originally you were willing to answer (you responded to my initial question about the aura issue), then when I responded to that with my own rebuttal and accompanied it with my earlier questions, you said you weren't willing to answer because the only outcome to doing so would be to make your group look bad, and only then when I pointed out what a terrible reason that is to not answer a question did you decide "it wasn't worth your time" - even though in all the time you've spent saying it isn't worth your time (let alone all the other posts you've made), you could have simply answered my questions.

 

So whatever you say, it certainly doesn't seem like the issue is one of time well spent. It is, it seems to me, exactly what you first said in response to my rebuttal and the reposting of the deleted questions - that you don't want to answer because the answers will make you and your group look bad in some way. The rest is just post hoc justification. You couldn't bring yourself to stop responding, so now you're trying to justify yourself with this nonsense about NDA's, which, it seems to me, is just an attempt to bury some kind of cognitive dissonance. 

 

Anyway, I have to get going (Roleplay time!), so I am going to head off. Goodbye. Farewell. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Au Revoir. slán. Proshchay. Dovizhdane. Ahoj. Прощай.  May the Gods always stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

7 hours ago, Aeran said:

 

Firstly, we need to address that you've changed your tune here, twice. Originally you were willing to answer (you responded to my initial question about the aura issue), then when I responded to that with my own rebuttal and accompanied it with my earlier questions, you said you weren't willing to answer because the only outcome to doing so would be to make your group look bad, and only then when I pointed out what a terrible reason that is to not answer a question did you decide "it wasn't worth your time" - even though in all the time you've spent saying it isn't worth your time (let alone all the other posts you've made), you could have simply answered my questions.

 

So whatever you say, it certainly doesn't seem like the issue is one of time well spent. It is, it seems to me, exactly what you first said in response to my rebuttal and the reposting of the deleted questions - that you don't want to answer because the answers will make you and your group look bad in some way. The rest is just post hoc justification. You couldn't bring yourself to stop responding, so now you're trying to justify yourself with this nonsense about NDA's, which, it seems to me, is just an attempt to bury some kind of cognitive dissonance. 

 

Anyway, I have to get going (Roleplay time!), so I am going to head off. Goodbye. Farewell. Adieu. Auf Wiedersehen. Au Revoir. slán. Proshchay. Dovizhdane. Ahoj. Прощай.  May the Gods always stand between you and harm in all the empty places you must walk

 

 

 

I'll take that as a no.

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Aeran said:

 

we could easily have undertaken a structured debate the first time I posted my questions in the other thread, where you had full control over the flow of the discussion.

 

 

Posting in a PPD even though I have control over that thread, doesn't stop other people from doing things like this:

 

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44515-also-my-personal-experiences-arent-all-puppies-and-rainbows-most-of-them-are-very-dark-and-that-doesnt-sell-well-people-want-to-be-reassured-that-everything-is-going-to-be-ok-and-there-is-no-way-to-say-otherwise-without-becoming-the-bad-guy/

 

This result would occur, things I said in response to you would trigger tons of other arguments here, or be used as ammo later on. 

 

If it were in private, AND you were under NDA so you could be sued into the dirt if broke the NDA, and this was the last time you got to discuss (troll) the topic of MoPai online, maybe it would be worth the hundreds of hours I would have to sink into arguing with you.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[thelerner]

9 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

If that seems rude and insulting, too bad so sad.

 

Not rude, but probably impractical, in that when an art requires hours of practice a day and there are no live teachers, its hard to spend a year and 1,000 hours on it.  There are arts which do requires hours a day, but you can correspond with live teachers and students who share and give feedback.  Apparently there are schools that follow curriculum close to level one and two, plus have live teachers, living traditions that are accessible. 

 

It's interesting, it seems like you feel about other Western schools of Mo Pai, the way some feel about your group. 

[Ilovecoffee]

9 minutes ago, thelerner said:

living traditions that are accessible. 

 

Yes, and we see what "results" those traditions get, you might as well strap a magnet to your head and spin in circles because the end result is the same.

 

There are those that want something that has the level of objective evidence seen for MoPai, and a system they can self verify without having to have faith. 

 

For those people we can offer them more than any other path I am aware of.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[thelerner]

Course you won't talk about the results your art gets (other then showing 20 year old JC youtubes?  But with other arts you can go to classes, talk to the teachers, study the lineage, see how senior students are doing.  Real stuff, not like Mo Pai where speaking about it gives others 'ammunition against it'(?). 

 

While you guys are proud over the lack of dharma/ethic lessons in your practice, I think in real life such lessons are equal to meditation and esoteric energy development.  Matter of fact, developing equanimity and kindness enhance it.  As one accumulates internal energy, and despite your disbelief there are many arts that do, without such te a person can gain energy and become increasingly unstable. 

 

It can happen in any energy practice, but most have safeguards, both live teachers and dharma lessons to grow ethically and remain morally grounded as you accumulate.  Without them paranoia and a cultlike attitudes take over.  Bad stuff. 

[Ilovecoffee]

18 minutes ago, thelerner said:

Course you won't talk about the results your art gets (other then showing 20 year old JC youtubes?  But with other arts you can go to classes, talk to the teachers, study the lineage, see how senior students are doing.  Real stuff, not like Mo Pai where speaking about it gives others 'ammunition against it'(?). 

 

While you guys are proud over the lack of dharma/ethic lessons in your practice, I think in real life such lessons are equal to meditation and esoteric energy development.  Matter of fact, developing equanimity and kindness enhance it.  As one accumulates internal energy, and despite your disbelief there are many arts that do, without such te a person can gain energy and become increasingly unstable. 

 

It can happen in any energy practice, but most have safeguards, both live teachers and dharma lessons to grow ethically and remain morally grounded as you accumulate.  Without them paranoia and a cultlike attitudes take over.  Bad stuff. 

 

All I can say thelerner is that if people are satisfied with the evidence for other arts, then they aren't the sort of person we are looking for.

 

We come from a different mindset, and are looking for like minded people.

 

[Chang]

14 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

All I can say thelerner is that if people are satisfied with the evidence for other arts, then they aren't the sort of person we are looking for.

 

Such arrogance not to mention insolence is indeed embarrassing. If not for you then for those who read your comments.

 

14 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

We come from a different mindset, and are looking for like minded people.

 

 

Like attracts like and I am sure that you have a small but steady stream of neophytes.

[Jonesboy]

1 hour ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

All I can say thelerner is that if people are satisfied with the evidence for other arts, then they aren't the sort of person we are looking for.

 

We come from a different mindset, and are looking for like minded people.

 

 

It seems like you want blind trust more than anything.

 

Nothing you have mentioned about your art is unique or what I have seen mentioned would change the world.

 

What I do see is people really trying to be open and ask real questions amd the reply is... watch the video and join us.

 

That is not enough for most people.. but then again you are looking for those for whom it is enough.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Jonesboy

[cold]

If some one doesn't take this thread as the basis for a screenplay / movie they are missing the boat.

However if their ship should come in I hope they will remember who planted this seed...

[Kar3n]

51 minutes ago, cold said:

If some one doesn't take this thread as the basis for a screenplay / movie they are missing the boat.

However if their ship should come in I hope they will remember who planted this seed...

Get to writing!!

 

And don't forget who encouraged you...

[Wu Ming Jen]

5 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

All I can say thelerner is that if people are satisfied with the evidence for other arts, then they aren't the sort of person we are looking for.

 

We come from a different mindset, and are looking for like minded people.

 

Once you eat you are no longer hungry. You need to find starving people that are weak and hungry for power to attract them to your system that you are promoting. No teachers, no schools does not leave much on the plate for those hungry, it will not satisfy them. If you are satisfied why do you keep eating. Now if you wish to share some food with others make sure you have enough for yourself first. We are all just wondering what you had to eat that you are so excited about.

 

As example if I told members about how great my system is and it is the best thing that ever existed believe me they would set me straight. The major mistake is telling someone what they practice is crap and mine is the best. Nei Dan is very personal We can not force a flower to bloom what works for one may not for other.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Wu Ming Jen