Long men pai nei gong and mo pai

[Kar3n]

12 minutes ago, Brian said:

I take it you didn't actually read the PDF?

I did.

[Mudfoot]

My PPD lists more relevant articles. 

[Mudfoot]

And Ken himself has written about it. 

[Ilovecoffee]

Thanks very interesting.

[blue eyed snake]

2 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

I think the major perception people have here is that we have changed or altered what Jim and Kosta taught their students, and the truth is we have not. 

 

There was an alteration to Jim's instructions floating around, with changes such as disconnecting the tongue from the pallet upon exhalation, among things.  These changes were introduced by David Micah Naziri AKA Hern Heng AKA Shifu Lin.

 

All instructions we provide were obtained prior to the Shifu Lin debacle.

 

There are other groups like LoneManPai (TM) that claim to be better than MoPai, and the now defunct Sifu Rel's group both who invent new practices and market them as MoPai or a better than MoPai.

 

All we do is preserve exactly what Jim and Kosta taught their students and absolutely nothing more.

 

It's the same teachings you would obtain being Chinese and going to Indonesia yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

point is..

 

our teacher once told us that of old, a teacher would, in his latter years, write down the stuff he was teaching. This stuff went into a chest. To be given to his senior student at the time of the teachers final departing. But only when that student was worthy, when no worthy student was available the chest with writings was burned ( i think), anyway destroyed . This to ensure that teachings would not become watered down, altered in unfavourable ways etc. 

 

To me that means, if our teachers most senior student, would today start his own dojo, his teachings would not be valid.

Now I have a great respect and love for this guy. But, to me, even when he would teach exactly as were taught. His teachings would not be valid because he is not yet ready to be teaching that stuff. 

As a beginner I suppose that that has to do with things like mindset, character- balance and , lets call it energetic aspects. 

 

I suppose that is the meaning and the worth of lineage.

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

6 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

 

point is..

 

our teacher once told us that of old, a teacher would, in his latter years, write down the stuff he was teaching. This stuff went into a chest. To be given to his senior student at the time of the teachers final departing. But only when that student was worthy, when no worthy student was available the chest with writings was burned ( i think), anyway destroyed . This to ensure that teachings would not become watered down, altered in unfavourable ways etc. 

 

To me that means, if our teachers most senior student, would today start his own dojo, his teachings would not be valid.

Now I have a great respect and love for this guy. But, to me, even when he would teach exactly as were taught. His teachings would not be valid because he is not yet ready to be teaching that stuff. 

As a beginner I suppose that that has to do with things like mindset, character- balance and , lets call it energetic aspects. 

 

I suppose that is the meaning and the worth of lineage.

 

 

 

As I said before we do the best we can possible do.

 

We preserve the teachings Jim and Kosta provided their students, exactly as they provided them. We have not changed or altered them in anyway.

 

If you wish to believe that John taught Jim and Kosta differently than he did the Indonesian students, and that the Indonesian students got the real teachings, and Jim and Kosta got filler practices, even though John tested Jim personally level by level,  that's fine.

 

If you wish to believe that John lied to Jim and Kosta, or that Jim and Kosta misunderstood what they were taught, even though John tested Jim personally level by level, that's fine.

 

I am sure you can invent any number of creative excuses for how the knowledge we preserve is not valid and is useless, and that is fine.

 

If you think what we offer is not valid, no one is forcing you to practice it.

 

The solution seems simple and straight forward, find something else you like better.

 

Best Wishes.

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

Without a teacher to test your character and guide your development, you can easily be led astray and focus on parlor tricks instead of awakening.

 

Mencius stated, "Do not seek in your vitality what you do not find in your heart" and vitality here means your practice, whether it's yoga or Mo Pai or Qigong or Reiki--if your heart isn't in the right place, you won't get anything.

 

On the basic level, if you're practicing while upset, don't expect results to be that great, on the higher level, without virtue, you won't get far, and this is why teachers are good to guide you.

 

Mencius also noted that Mo Di believed in love for all mankind--something I think the Western Mo Pai group could serve to remember and practice instead of calling everything else that isn't their system fake or dismissing other teachers as frauds. 

 

 

So Earl,  I want you to know I've been working really hard to be honest and tactful,  deleting and retyping a response now for over 30 minutes.

 

It's really hard to be honest, and do it in a way that isn't going to offend you.

 

Picture this, little baby Cletus goes off to college, and gets exposed to lots of different ideas,  secular humanism, and Buddhism really click for him, and he finds that the idea of just believing stuff because his society says so, on faith, personal testimony, etc,  all that just seems to not be reasonable to him.

 

Cletus comes home the holidays and when his parents want him to come to Church with them,  he has to be honest and tell them he is now Buddhist and while he appreciates and respects their faith, no longer wants to go to church to follow it.

 

Of course the parents are flabbergasted!  Little baby Cletus is a heathen now! 

 

Aunt Gertrude comes over and sternly has a come to Jesus meeting with Cletus, how he is going to burn in hell, and be subject to eternal damnation unless he repents and accepts Jesus as his personal savior.

 

So while aunt Gertrude and family mean well, and have the best intentions,  Cletus doesn't want their help, advice, opinions,  etc, all of this is completely unwanted on his end.

 

So that is where we are right now.

 

I appreciate that you want to help us, and I know that you believe you are doing the right thing by trying to help us, but the fact of the matter is, if we wanted your advice, opinions, and help we would have asked for it.

 

I feel like your energy would be better spent on someone who asks for it no?

 

That may be rude but it is also honest. 

 

Best wishes.

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

5 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

Actually, you were a lot politer in this message than any other message you have ever posted, so I applaud you, albeit you are still completely missing the point.

 

The point is: 1) your manners are lacking, and you can re-read the forum rules so that you know why people don't take you or your group seriously,

 

2) you have no ability to recognize that you are tactless and actually confuse it with being inauthentic,

 

3) nobody is converting you, but you are certainly unable to stop attacking other people's practices--which is bizarre since you are saying I am trying to convert you, yet you are certainly not reciprocating that by saying our teachers and systems from are frauds and scammers. 

 

4) while you are here, you follow the rules of the forum. You don't. Likewise, you come into my house and I say shoes off, you don't get to come over if you don't take off your shoes. This doesn't mean you are lying about who you are if you don't want to take off your shoes, it shows that you don't know the difference between manners and personal expression. 

 

I shall leave you with this parting gift: links to essential social skills (applicable to real life and online conduct equally) http://www.artofmanliness.com/category/relationships-family/social-skills/

 

and civility online: http://www.artofmanliness.com/2011/07/13/being-a-gentleman-in-the-age-of-the-internet-6-ways-to-bring-civility-online/.

 

It is also noteworthy that I quoted Mencius speaking of Mo Di, and Mo Di is your founder of Mo Pai. Bizarre how you practice a system but don't go to the teachings of the founder, only its inheritors, and not even its true inheritors, as you learn from Kosta and Jim, not even John Chang. The best way to learn and understand a system is to know its philosophy--something you don't show. 

 

 

Again Earl as politely as I can, you are wasting your time and energy giving advice to a group of people who will ignore it because they aren't interested in it. 

 

You see things one way and we see things the polar opposite of that.

 

Best wishes.

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Nungali]

On 7/3/2017 at 11:14 AM, Ilovecoffee said:

Unfortunately Nungali,  I'm not interested in further dialog with you.  I have a hard time taking anything you say seriously, and can't see anything productive coming out of a discussion with you.  

 

Best wishes.

 

Okay ....  like you did with The Learner  and ... and ..., and ..... 

 

what an unproductive lot we are !   

 

Interesting how, when a difficult question or observation arises for you , you ....

 

 

 

 

[X2471990]

Voidisyinyang is correct in the sense that in nei Gong yin is cultivated fist. And then yang and yes there is a aspect of takeing a number 2 lol but that is just a reference to how you compress yang Qi in the dantien. I don't use that reference but that could be used lol. But what is meant by cultivating yin does not mean you pull up the perinum right away. That is a process that does take place. But when being nei Gong you do cultivate yin first but not in the way you are saying voidisyinyang or whatever your name is lol

[X2471990]

Here is the thing if you have been meditating for years and did not just come into training from a nei Gong perspective. You would not need to cultivate yin Qi first you already have done so. You would be cultivating yang. That is for very few people in the west due to your culture. You here these things and your mind goes in so many directions from what you heard elsewhere. 

[X2471990]

Look at Buddhism and what it has become in the west. Iam appealed by what I see sometimes. It's become political especially western zen in America. Just imagine what nei Gong would become in the west.

[X2471990]

Forgive the way I write here I am seeing that if I post people post things get confusing I will try and put everything down in one post 

[X2471990]

Most people don't understand how to put all this information together and actually do it. When working with Qi we use certain sayings to describe something. Something a teacher says to one student may be said to another differently. 

[Brian]

10 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

 

So Earl,  I want you to know I've been working really hard to be honest and tactful,  deleting and retyping a response now for over 30 minutes.

 

It's really hard to be honest, and do it in a way that isn't going to offend you.

 

Picture this, little baby Cletus goes off to college, and gets exposed to lots of different ideas,  secular humanism, and Buddhism really click for him, and he finds that the idea of just believing stuff because his society says so, on faith, personal testimony, etc,  all that just seems to not be reasonable to him.

 

Cletus comes home the holidays and when his parents want him to come to Church with them,  he has to be honest and tell them he is now Buddhist and while he appreciates and respects their faith, no longer wants to go to church to follow it.

 

Of course the parents are flabbergasted!  Little baby Cletus is a heathen now! 

 

Aunt Gertrude comes over and sternly has a come to Jesus meeting with Cletus, how he is going to burn in hell, and be subject to eternal damnation unless he repents and accepts Jesus as his personal savior.

 

So while aunt Gertrude and family mean well, and have the best intentions,  Cletus doesn't want their help, advice, opinions,  etc, all of this is completely unwanted on his end.

 

So that is where we are right now.

 

I appreciate that you want to help us, and I know that you believe you are doing the right thing by trying to help us, but the fact of the matter is, if we wanted your advice, opinions, and help we would have asked for it.

 

I feel like your energy would be better spent on someone who asks for it no?

 

That may be rude but it is also honest. 

 

Best wishes.

 

 

So...

 

Tell me, Aunt Gertrude -- what did YOU study in college?

[blue eyed snake]

14 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

As I said before we do the best we can possible do.

 

We preserve the teachings Jim and Kosta provided their students, exactly as they provided them. We have not changed or altered them in anyway.

 

If you wish to believe that John taught Jim and Kosta differently than he did the Indonesian students, and that the Indonesian students got the real teachings, and Jim and Kosta got filler practices, even though John tested Jim personally level by level,  that's fine.

 

If you wish to believe that John lied to Jim and Kosta, or that Jim and Kosta misunderstood what they were taught, even though John tested Jim personally level by level, that's fine.

 

I am sure you can invent any number of creative excuses for how the knowledge we preserve is not valid and is useless, and that is fine.

 

If you think what we offer is not valid, no one is forcing you to practice it.

 

The solution seems simple and straight forward, find something else you like better.

 

Best Wishes.

 

 

 

 

seems you did not get what i wrote. twice

 

I 'm perfectly happy with the teacher that came onto my path when the time was ripe.

 

wish you all the best

 

BES

[Ilovecoffee]

2 hours ago, blue eyed snake said:

 

seems you did not get what i wrote. twice

 

I 'm perfectly happy with the teacher that came onto my path when the time was ripe.

 

wish you all the best

 

BES

 

Sounds good, hope that works out well for you.

 

Best wishes.

[Mudfoot]

Technically, as far as I have heard,  Chinese teachers are famous for not telling "The Truth, the whole truth,  and nothing but the truth" to their students. 

 

But this might not be the case for you guys. I have been there though, and probably still is. Sometimes they call it teaching in layers, so even a "level" might have several layers. 

 

Again,  one of the reasons people tend to stress the importance of studying under a qualified teacher. 

 

But if the method is simple and just needs to be done quite a lot,  a live teacher might not be needed? 

 

In this case,  only the core group around MPG has the answer to that. 

 

And your answer is that the info you have available is enough. 

[Brian]

3 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Technically, as far as I have heard,  Chinese teachers are famous for not telling "The Truth, the whole truth,  and nothing but the truth" to their students. 

 

But this might not be the case for you guys. I have been there though, and probably still is. Sometimes they call it teaching in layers, so even a "level" might have several layers. 

 

Again,  one of the reasons people tend to stress the importance of studying under a qualified teacher. 

 

But if the method is simple and just needs to be done quite a lot,  a live teacher might not be needed? 

 

In this case,  only the core group around MPG has the answer to that. 

 

And your answer is that the info you have available is enough. 

I have learned that sometimes a single lesson has multiple levels which are accessible according to one's frequency. Different people will learn what is appropriate for them and the same lesson delivered again later will be recognized to contain previously missed.  I find this quite wonderful!

[Ilovecoffee]

43 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

Technically, as far as I have heard,  Chinese teachers are famous for not telling "The Truth, the whole truth,  and nothing but the truth" to their students. 

 

But this might not be the case for you guys. I have been there though, and probably still is. Sometimes they call it teaching in layers, so even a "level" might have several layers. 

 

Again,  one of the reasons people tend to stress the importance of studying under a qualified teacher. 

 

But if the method is simple and just needs to be done quite a lot,  a live teacher might not be needed? 

 

In this case,  only the core group around MPG has the answer to that. 

 

And your answer is that the info you have available is enough. 

 

The results speak for themselves, the fact I can't talk about my personal experiences without causing an argument should say quite a lot. 

 

All we do is preserve the knowledge passed to us from Jim and Kosta without change, and that is the best we can do. 

 

 

[Brian]

9 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

The results speak for themselves, the fact I can't talk about my personal experiences without causing an argument should say quite a lot. 

 

All we do is preserve the knowledge passed to us from Jim and Kosta without change, and that is the best we can do. 

 

 

You have a PPD.  Post your personal experience and then, if you wish, lock the thread and walk away.  You lurked here for more than a year before responding to X2471990's introductory post so not engaging in an argument you anticipate will happen shouldn't be hard.

 

Frankly, I suspect the issue will simply be that others won't find your experience so singular and exceptional as you do, just as I suspect a description of the actual methods/techniques/mechanics of your practice would reveal that there's nothing unique about the physical practice of the first few levels of MoPai.

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, Brian said:

You have a PPD.  Post your personal experience and then, if you wish, lock the thread and walk away. 

 

If I thought that a PPD would contain the argument, and it not be used as ammo in other discussions, or create spin off threads I would. 

 

1 hour ago, Brian said:

others won't find your experience so singular and exceptional as you do

 

I agree with you you, I doubt most here would, because their reaction to John being investigated by scientists is either "it's a hoax", or "every qigong master can do, what is the big deal?"

 

 

1 hour ago, Brian said:

there's nothing unique about the physical practice of the first few levels of MoPai.

 

There is nothing unique about the physical practice, but the physical practice isn't the important aspect of the training, and that is what everyone misses.  Doing only the physical aspect will lead nowhere and do nothing. 

 

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Chang]

3 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

If I thought that a PPD would contain the argument, and it not be used as ammo in other discussions, or create spin off threads I would. 

 

 

 

I am vaguely interested in why you are here on  The Dao Bums. You appear to have no interest, apart from contempt, in any form of neigong apart from your own - More Pie.

 

Three questions.

1. Why are you here?

2.What do you want?

3.What do you have to offer the rest of us?

 

I am sorry that your reception here has not been over welcoming but the fact is that you are simply the latest in a long line of More Pie Jihadi's who all say the same thing. We have seen and heard it all before.

[Ilovecoffee]

1 minute ago, Chang said:

 

I am vaguely interested in why you are here on  The Dao Bums. You appear to have no interest, apart from contempt, in any form of neigong apart from your own - More Pie.

 

Three questions.

1. Why are you here?

2.What do you want?

3.What do you have to offer the rest of us?

 

I am sorry that your reception here has not been over welcoming but the fact is that you are simply the latest in a long line of More Pie Jihadi's who all say the same thing. We have seen and heard it all before.

 

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/44486-long-men-pai-nei-gong-and-mo-pai/?page=12#comment-761571

[Mudfoot]

I would not write about my experience either,  here on the dao bums. 

 

You might get one of these responses :

 

1) It is a level zero, dead-end practice, so who cares. (You will find that opinion in a previous Mo Pai thread.) 

 

2) It is a result of a post-heaven, jing-consuming method which will lead nowhere. (You will find versions of that one in one of the Nei dan threads from this winter, I belive.) 

 

Not so helpful?