Long men pai nei gong and mo pai

[Ilovecoffee]

Just now, Mudfoot said:

I would not write about my experience either,  here on the dao bums. 

 

You might get one of these responses :

 

1) It is a level zero, dead-end practice, so who cares. (You will find that opinion in a previous Mo Pai thread.) 

 

2) It is a result of a post-heaven, jing-consuming method which will lead nowhere. (You will find versions of that one in one of the Nei dan threads from this winter, I belive.) 

 

Not so helpful? 

 

 

I agree with you that responses like that will be common, nothing I could say or do would convince anyone of anything, even in person demonstrations with someone like John himself wouldn't be enough for most here.

 

We will just continue to do the best we can.

[Mudfoot]

Two questions,  and feel free to ignore this since you feel restricted here :

 

I have read threads on your forum,  and most is centered around the full lotus LDT practice. 

 

1) In Kostas second book,  he shows a zhan zhuan with the hands parallel to the ground. (I might be wrong here). 

 

Among the things you can do in this one is two separate ways to cause a compression in the LDT, and one method of making sure the LDT doesn’t get stiff. Is that one used often, or is the seated practice the main thing, or is this one of the things you do not wish to discuss? 

 

2) If you search the Net for JC, sometimes there comes up a photo of an oriental sitting in half-lotus with his right hand in the sword mudra. Is that him? 

If so,  is that used later in the process? 

 

Voidisyinyang,  if you see this,  haven't you written about the half-lotus? In the photo, if I recall right,  the right leg is on top. Am my memory failing me,  or didn't you write that the other leg should be on top,  and for what kind of result was that important? 

 

Back to topic,  sorry,  how do you interpret why he is sitting in that specific way? (I can understand if this also is off-topic, but hey,  this is a forum after all.) 

[Ilovecoffee]

43 minutes ago, Mudfoot said:

I have read threads on your forum,  and most is centered around the full lotus LDT practice. 

 

No I don't think you have, because it is not a public forum.

[Mudfoot]

Sorry,  I assumed you were part of the group that writes on www.neigongforum.com 

 

Obviously not. 

 

Let me rephrase: On the above mentioned forum there have been several posts describing what I wrote about above,  post authored by people using names of people associated with Mo Pai practice. 

[liminal_luke]

Personal stories may be subjective and unscientific, but I often find them the most persuasive.  After people have stayed around here for awhile, we get a sense of their personalities. I pay attention when someone who seems honest and reasonable reports their personal experience.  Remember Cameron?  He had all sorts of wild and fantastic things to say about Max and Kunlun, and people really listened to him. Many went on to get their own training with Max on the strength of his testimony;  I know I did. Not everyone fell in love with Kunlun like he did, but it was an interesting moment in Taobums history.

 

If someone friendly and conversational talked up Mo Pai from a personal experience perspective, we could get a similar groundswell of enthusiasm.  And yeah, I know, not gonna happen.  But if the goal is to introduce serious practitioners to a system that works, it`s hard to beat personal story.

 

 

[silent thunder]

I had never heard of MP until I arrived here.

I have up to this point, never heard it mentioned anywhere else in my life... ever.

 

Not that I'm some all knowing barometer, but I have studied, practiced and had countless in depth conversations of a myriad of styles over the last three and a half decades with anyone I could engage on the topic, yet not once in thirty some years of intense study, practice, seeking and curiosity has it ever come up as a reference.  Not by any teacher, student, fellow MA enthusiast, friend, not in any book, or movie, or anywhere.  Not one other source... ever.   That's some serious obscurity in my experience. 

 

It's one of the most obscure styles, aside from the ones so obscure, no one's ever heard of them at all and it seems that this is very much by intention and by the very design of its masters and lineage holders.

 

One book (written by a student yes? not a lineage holder?) and a short video of Master Chang from over a decade (two?) ago. 

 

Of the folks who claim to have encountered it... they do not do the style any favors from my perspective based on the flavor of their behavior and their insights. 

 

The book and video seem to have hit a nerve of awakening among a group of materialists, who prior to being exposed to the video and book had no inkling of the possibility of these subtle processes and now... having seen a glimpse of a genuine Master, have had their first expansion of reality and now, understandably run about shouting to anyone who will listen... 'Have any of you seen this stuff?  It's legit!!!! Here it is!!!! This is it!  It's real!!!  omg...", with the fervor of the recently converted fundamentalist.  I get it.  It's itense. 

 

And yes... we have seen it, felt it.  Well... I have.   And based on the authentic descriptions of all the folks with ongoing praxis, who are caring and unselfish enough to share their experiences here, we can share notes and help each other out with some understandings, or just engage in meaningful shop talk. 

 

Both of my teachers from Wudang engaged in processes that utterly altered my previously held paradigm of reality and what is possible in humans.  This is the nature of a Grand Master.  Merely sitting in their presence brings incredible awakening.  I spent days wandering around stoned out of my gorde in utter bliss after my first short weekend with Master Zhou.  After ten days with Master Wang... my life has shifted, seemingly permanently. 

 

I get it.  It's intense.  It's mind opening.  To have these experiences.  It can be disorienting, disconcerting and has long lasting ramifications to further experiences of life and 'reality'.  It's reality melting stuff.

 

I'm genuinely happy for anyone who finds a practice that resonates with them.  This is a rare gem in life in my experience.  So you have found it!  Now go and practice!  Then if you feel it... come and share!  We'd love to hear your authentic experiences and insights.

 

I thought the art was closed.  I just don't know what practicing it has to do with proving it to anyone else who doesn't seem interested?  I talk a lot about my teachers to those who want to know... those who don't... I

 

As I said, I've never heard it mentioned anywhere else in any dojo or gym, or book... anywhere.  But remember, at one point... Chu Chuji was standing in a forest waving his arms around and breathing and founded the branch of Longmen Pai that Wang Li Ping learned.  At one point, it was just a human, engaging in exporation and self study, reaching out to the energies of the universe and expanding, inward and outward.

 

But from what I have seen of the fruit of this tree as encountered here... Mopai has no gravity for me.  

 

It seems an obscure, intentionally closed and hidden system and frankly, based on how cloistered it is... the very intent of releasing the video of Master Chang and the Magus book seem to be questionable.  Why release such, if you the intention was not to open up and seek students and another generation?

 

Either way.  As I said.  Lineage is great and teachers are ultra rare.  Yet at one point, ever single lineage was just some 'new age' guy out in the woods or in a cave, waving his hands in the air.  Figuring shit out for him/her self.

 

Those who talk, seldom know.

Those who know, have little need to talk.

 

Embrace your self.

 

Resonate.

 

Love your life and connect.

 

Just be.  The Universe is vast.  There is room for all.

And in the end, there is one source.  We all stem from and return there.

 

 

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

Personal stories may be subjective and unscientific, but I often find them the most persuasive.  After people have stayed around here for awhile, we get a sense of their personalities. I pay attention when someone who seems honest and reasonable reports their personal experience.  Remember Cameron?  He had all sorts of wild and fantastic things to say about Max and Kunlun, and people really listened to him. Many went on to get their own training with Max on the strength of his testimony;  I know I did. Not everyone fell in love with Kunlun like he did, but it was an interesting moment in Taobums history.

 

If someone friendly and conversational talked up Mo Pai from a personal experience perspective, we could get a similar groundswell of enthusiasm.  And yeah, I know, not gonna happen.  But if the goal is to introduce serious practitioners to a system that works, it`s hard to beat personal story.

 

 

 

Luke,

 

It's sort of a catch-22, the people who would accept personal testimony aren't the ones we hope to convince.

 

 

[X2471990]

10 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Technically, as far as I have heard,  Chinese teachers are famous for not telling "The Truth, the whole truth,  and nothing but the truth" to their students. 

 

But this might not be the case for you guys. I have been there though, and probably still is. Sometimes they call it teaching in layers, so even a "level" might have several layers. 

 

Again,  one of the reasons people tend to stress the importance of studying under a qualified teacher. 

 

But if the method is simple and just needs to be done quite a lot,  a live teacher might not be needed? 

 

In this case,  only the core group around MPG has the answer to that. 

 

And your answer is that the info you have available is enough. 

This is very true. To be honest iam starting to have a lot more faith in people here after seeing this. A lot of aspects of nei Gong are very hard to teach and put into words. But a western mind needs things said a certain way. This is one reason why they are not taught. I could write a form on exactly how to bring Qi into the dantien and start compacting it. But I would acutely be very hard to do. But if I said things to you in levels then it might be easier to understand. This is exactly what happened in magus of java.

[X2471990]

The people who sought out John Chang had no prior experience from what I see and things   where said to them in a way they could understand. 

[X2471990]

9 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

Two questions,  and feel free to ignore this since you feel restricted here :

 

I have read threads on your forum,  and most is centered around the full lotus LDT practice. 

 

1) In Kostas second book,  he shows a zhan zhuan with the hands parallel to the ground. (I might be wrong here). 

 

Among the things you can do in this one is two separate ways to cause a compression in the LDT, and one method of making sure the LDT doesn’t get stiff. Is that one used often, or is the seated practice the main thing, or is this one of the things you do not wish to discuss? 

 

2) If you search the Net for JC, sometimes there comes up a photo of an oriental sitting in half-lotus with his right hand in the sword mudra. Is that him? 

If so,  is that used later in the process? 

 

Voidisyinyang,  if you see this,  haven't you written about the half-lotus? In the photo, if I recall right,  the right leg is on top. Am my memory failing me,  or didn't you write that the other leg should be on top,  and for what kind of result was that important? 

 

Back to topic,  sorry,  how do you interpret why he is sitting in that specific way? (I can understand if this also is off-topic, but hey,  this is a forum after all.) 

Not sure if iam reading this right but when doing nei gong practices sometimes stagnation occurs in the channels doing the hands down practices helps move Qi during stagnation. I use this from time to time after a day or so of compacting Qi. 

[X2471990]

And so everyone knows as much as I find kostas books entertaining and they do give the tequinqes to some extent this is a guy who thinks level 73 nei Gong is nirvana. Iam sure he is different now but take that into consideration everything you read isn't always entirely accurate when it comes to internal Kung fu

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, Mudfoot said:

 

Voidisyinyang,  if you see this,  haven't you written about the half-lotus? In the photo, if I recall right,  the right leg is on top. Am my memory failing me,  or didn't you write that the other leg should be on top,  and for what kind of result was that important? 

 

Back to topic,  sorry,  how do you interpret why he is sitting in that specific way? (I can understand if this also is off-topic, but hey,  this is a forum after all.) 

 

I go into the leg stuff in my free pdf - I cite sources and details.

 

https://www.pdf-archive.com/2017/04/10/idiot-s-guide-to-taoist-alchemy/

 

lots of images also.

 

 

[Mudfoot]

On 2017-07-03 at 4:42 PM, Brian said:

http://www.consciousnessandbiofeedback.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Anomalous-Electrostatic-Phenomena-in-Exceptional-Subjects.pdf

 

Before you say it, no, that scientific paper didn't name the test subjects.  That's not how such things are generally done.  However...

 

Ken Cohen received the 2013 Alyce and Elmer Green Award from the ISSSEEM and that award identified him as one on the nine "exceptional healers" recorded in the 12-year-long Copper Wall Project experiments.  The Greens were quite open about Cohen's identity subsequent to the journal publication.

Warning, commercial coming! 

 

Ken Cohen, in his dvd Qi Healing (Sounds True),  teaches a version of Shaolin Nei Jing Yi Zhi Chan. 

 

One of the conclusions in the above named paper was that trained healers had significantly higher voltages than meditators. 

 

 

[小梦想]

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Edited August 10, 2018 by 小梦想

[blue eyed snake]

On 7/3/2017 at 4:42 PM, Brian said:

http://www.consciousnessandbiofeedback.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Anomalous-Electrostatic-Phenomena-in-Exceptional-Subjects.pdf

 

Before you say it, no, that scientific paper didn't name the test subjects.  That's not how such things are generally done.  However...

 

Ken Cohen received the 2013 Alyce and Elmer Green Award from the ISSSEEM and that award identified him as one on the nine "exceptional healers" recorded in the 12-year-long Copper Wall Project experiments.  The Greens were quite open about Cohen's identity subsequent to the journal publication.

 

Thanks Brian, for posting this, nice publication. Even though the finer points go over my head, the design looks well to me and the general outcome is clear enough.

 

That brings me to a question, I would like a pinned thread titled ' research' 

I remember there were posts with a link to chinese studies which made meridians visible, but of course that has sunk to the depths of the forum by now.

 

Isn't this forum a good place to make a collection of papers like this, to be easily found when you want them?

 

I do not need scientific proof anymore ( but once I did and have been looking, but after a PC crash the results were lost to me). But find I do enjoy reading it. Also, I remember a family member telling me energywork was all BS, at the time I just told her to each his own, but it would be nice to be easily able to send some papers with clear information on the subject.

 

I remember a design whereby they made healers put their hands in dark boxes ( very dark )

Measure was the amount/count of photons in the box. When these healers did ' whatever you do when you heal a patient'  the count went up to I think 10 to the power 3 ( could be 10 to 5, don't remember). 

 

I was baffled and for me it was sort of the answer to ' what is this guy doing??? Some years ago, when I was a newbie to this stuff.

well, light holds information, that should be no news in this age of  fiber optic cables

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by blue eyed snake

[Ilovecoffee]

5 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

I think you guys are making way more out of the things that happen than what needs to be. 

 

During training I have my whole abdomen move and pulse violently, I have had electrical currents running in most meridians, I have had electrical currents running in my head, I have had a blinding white orb in my head when I close my eyes causing them to "burn" on quite a few occasions. I have had intense heat and burn marks forming in my hands along the pericardium meridian near/on the laogong points. I have random pulses in my dantian and even once had a full on strong pulsing in my stomach with intense heat radiating outwards while asleep which lasted a good few minutes according to my gf.

 

No one will attack me for these statements

 

 

I agree that no one will attack us for making statements like that, but those are not the sorts of experiences we are talking about. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[小梦想]

.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by 小梦想

[Ilovecoffee]

33 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

It can't make things worse than they already are. Whatever you say won't change anything or give anyone ammunition against you more than what people already have.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

Whatever it is you guys can do, or feel you can do, it's a lot more normal than you think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

33 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

I am quite certain what you think is so out of this world, is just a normal morning for me and most likely quite a few others on here.

 

 

 

 

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree on these points.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mudfoot]

And the only way to find out more is to take an assumed name,  sign up at a more private forum,  and play Gunther Wallraff for a year or so. 

 

"Blubfoot"?

[小梦想]

.

 

 

Edited August 10, 2018 by 小梦想

[Ilovecoffee]

4 hours ago, 小梦想 said:

 

The points that it won't be used as ammunition or that the things I experience are different to yours? 

 

If you guys found and follow the teachings of a master and then can do more stuff than him without him even being present to guide you then you should really share that stuff. I mean it's not often a group of "students" seemingly surpass a master especially when he is not present. You make it sound like you guys can do more than what is demonstrated in the videos by John Chang himself and at that stage he had already trained 20 years plus and "fused" yin and yang. 

 

I used to believe the books too, thinking some great and amazing experiences lie and wait. The truth is almost a let down, and the simplicity of things even more so. The first time I emitted qi as a powerful electric current it was incredible. Afterwards I almost stopped training, underwhelmed completely by how unimpressive it was. I felt like all the years of searching and training, and for what, a current flowing out of me into another persons body. It was an extremely strong current, but still just a current. All I had read and was expecting didn't happen, wasn't required or was completely over exaggerated by others with a flair for the dramatic. I needed the Buddhist aspect of my training to keep me going which over time has helped me to become more balanced emotionally and allow me to enter stillness quicker. They go really well with the kind of training you guys are doing and I am happy to recommend some good books should you be interested.

 

We are warned off from doing any sort of "demonstrations" because it severely drains jing and/or causes imbalances over time when the body isn't ready for it. Be careful and try to put thing into perspective. These things are just normal really. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Small Dream,

 

First our experiences will not be taken seriously, we might as well claim alien abduction.  Believing this requires seeing it firsthand for yourself. Were I told what I would experience I would have left in disbelief, and never returned.
 

Next without any doubt, our experiences will be used as ammo against us in any conversation here. 

 

Finally what you are talking about isn't in the ballpark of what we are talking about, not even close.

 

About sharing, yes we really are trying to do that, but it is not possible to share publicly in an environment as hostile and as toxic as this one. We had to create a private forum, and we have to go to absurd lengths to screen out the trolls, and mentally deranged people.

 

You say you used to "believe the books too", no we don't want anyone believing books.  We want people who will examine the video of John's investigation with scientists and medical doctors present to rule out fraud, and put in enough effort to see for themselves. We don't want anyone believing anything on faith, or because someone else, or some book says so.

 

Also about the book recommendations, thanks but not interested unless you can present at least as much evidence as exists for MoPai for the system or teacher.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 10, 2018 by 小梦想

[Ilovecoffee]

34 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

 

Ok, if you say so. I find it strange that you are claiming you guys can do more than what John was able to do after 20 plus years of training. This is how is it comes across anyway.

 

 

But you guys believe the books written by Kostas and Jim. They were never tested by scientists to rule out fraud. Who says Jim didn't fake his video or Kostas didn't exaggerate? Just saying.

 

Ps. If memory serves correctly, the test for level 3 was breaking a 5 or 10-inch thick branch with your qi. The level 1 test was to knock cigarette boxes off a table from a distance. The video of Jim is showing his test for level 1. If you like I can find you quote in The Magus of Java for you proving this statement. 

 

 

Mindfulness training does wonders for the mind and the ability to enter stillness. Entering stillness is what we need to work with qi. They are instructions from the Buddha himself but what did he know. He didn't have any scientists present so I guess that makes his word not worth while either.

 

It was fun talking to you. I will take my leave now. All the best.

 

Small Dream,

 

I am not going to argue with you further.

 

If what you have works for you then great, but we are not interested.

 

Best wishes.

[Chang]

45 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Small Dream,

 

I am not going to argue with you further.

 

If what you have works for you then great, but we are not interested.

 

Best wishes.

 

You are not interested in the practices of other.

 

The others are not interested in your practice. Whatever that may be.

 

Yet this thread has run to twenty two pages. "O tempora o mores"

[Ilovecoffee]

24 minutes ago, Chang said:

 

You are not interested in the practices of other.

 

The others are not interested in your practice. Whatever that may be.

 

Yet this thread has run to twenty two pages. "O tempora o mores"

 

Chang,

 

Believe it or not, I've tried my best to remain polite, and share as much as I possibly can.

 

My sincerest apologies that my best efforts are not to your liking.