Long men pai nei gong and mo pai

[Mudfoot]

And if someone conducted interviews on them, we might get qualitative scientific research on the sensations they felt. 

[Brian]

Just now, Mudfoot said:

And if a scientist measured ecg, eeg on those people there would be objective evidence....... 

Had John Chang gone with them to the university the next day as had been planned, perhaps there would have been objective evidence.  Instead, we have a very good video providing anecdotal evidence.  This in no way suggests John Chang is a fraud or that the people observing him were incompetent or anything of the nature.  I have said all along that I see no reason not to take the video at face value.  That value, however, doesn't rise to the level of "objective evidence" regardless of who was present.

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

I read through your post history back to Jan 2015 but must have overlooked it, maybe you would be so kind as tell me without me having to guess.

 

Best wishes to you as well.

 

well, if you've read all my threads you must have a lot of spare time, hope you had fun with them.

[blue eyed snake]

3 hours ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Brian, I won't play these games with you.

 

Websters definition of Objective 1b, and 1d work just fine for us, if they don't work for you too bad.

 

Best wishes.

 

Brian isn't playing games, merely very patiently trying to explain to you what objective evidence means. Y

 

Seems to be a very patient guy.

[liminal_luke]

On 11/7/2017 at 10:41 AM, Brian said:

An interesting detail (from a scientific perspective rather than a healer's) is that at least one group of researchers found no significant change in field in the immediate vicinity of the healer but did find such change in the vicinity of the healer's "target."

 

This reminds me of something a shiatsu teacher told me about her evolving understanding of qi and meridians.  She said she used to think that the qi "flowed" in the meridians, but no longer held that view.  At the time her comment made no sense to me, but I think I`m getting closer to understanding.

 

The conventional worldview is that if something is over here and goes over there it has to pass through the intervening space.  So if, for instance, a healer wanted to heat up a client she`d have to first heat herself up and then get close to the client so the heat could travel to the other person.  How interesting that this isn`t what happens!

 

I`m tempted to use the word "quantum" right now even though I haven`t the slightest clue what that word really means.  Since I`ve quoted Brian, I`ll hold back on the pseudo-scientific analogies and instead talk about oneness consciousness.  From the point of view of a sufficiently unified conscience, maybe energy doesn`t need to travel through anywhere.  There`s no pipeline.  It can simply show up wherever it`s directed without regard to the usual constrants of time and space.

 

If any of this makes sense...

Edited July 12, 2017 by liminal_luke

[blue eyed snake]

thanks for posting Luke,

no, it doesn't make sense, and at the same time it does.

 

It doesn't make sense because we need to think of things as going from here to there.

But chi seems to be something different and we cannot grasp it with our ever rationalizing minds.

 

I'm aware of something flowing trough my body, I call that chi, for want of a better word. At the same time I know that I do not feel chi flowing but i feel a reaction of my physical body.

 

and I know that my teacher is able to energetically influence people over quite a distance. I do not think much about it, I cannot grasp it. And in that regard it is like those modern physics theories, we cannot grasp that anymore ( at least I can't  )

[Brian]

27 minutes ago, liminal_luke said:

 

This reminds me of something a shiatsu teacher told me about her evolving understanding of qi and meridians.  She said she used to think that the qi "flowed" in the meridians, but no longer held that view.  At the time her comment made no sense to me, but I think I`m getting closer to understanding.

 

The conventional worldview is that if something is over here and goes over there it has to pass through the intervening space.  So if, for instance, a healer wanted to heat up a client she`d have to first heat herself up and then get close to the client so the heat could travel to the other person.  How interesting that this isn`t what happens!

 

I`m tempted to use the word "quantum" right now even though I haven`t the slightest clue what that word really means.  Since I`ve quoted Brian, I`ll hold back on the pseudo-scientific analogies and instead talk about oneness consciousness.  From the point of view of a sufficiently unified conscience, maybe energy doesn`t need to travel through anywhere.  There`s no pipeline.  It can simply show up wherever it`s directed without regard to the usual constrants of time and space.

 

If any of this makes sense...

I'm perfectly fine with pseudo-scientific analogies as long as they are framed in the proper context.  Heck! I'm OK with "centrifugal force" and "atomic models."

 

FWIW, "quantum" really means the smallest possible quantity of "something" and it originates with the idea that light isn't a smooth and continuous flow of non-discrete "something" but is little packets of "something" which each contain a very specific amount of energy.  This one little realization completely blew up what most scientists hubristically thought in the mid-1800s was a nearly complete understanding of matter & energy -- just a few little details to nail down and...  KABOOM!!!

 

Now "quantum" is more commonly thought of as that weird and seemingly impossible realm of experimental & theoretical physics, particularly involving incomprehensibly small stuff and/or unimaginably energetic stuff which doesn't really have any bearing on "the real world" -- except it has become increasingly clear that it is "the real world" (except it isn't "real" in the common sense, either) AND it has everything to do with "how things work" in "the real world."  In this context, it is perfectly OK with me to talk about the sort of "energetic" stuff we tend to talk about here as "quantum" something-or-other...

 

Edited July 12, 2017 by Brian

[Brian]

13 minutes ago, blue eyed snake said:

thanks for posting Luke,

no, it doesn't make sense, and at the same time it does.

 

It doesn't make sense because we need to think of things as going from here to there.

But chi seems to be something different and we cannot grasp it with our ever rationalizing minds.

 

I'm aware of something flowing trough my body, I call that chi, for want of a better word. At the same time I know that I do not feel chi flowing but i feel a reaction of my physical body.

 

and I know that my teacher is able to energetically influence people over quite a distance. I do not think much about it, I cannot grasp it. And in that regard it is like those modern physics theories, we cannot grasp that anymore ( at least I can't  )

We are starting to get some clues about this type of weirdness with our research into entanglement.

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, liminal_luke said:

The conventional worldview is that if something is over here and goes over there it has to pass through the intervening space.  So if, for instance, a healer wanted to heat up a client she`d have to first heat herself up and then get close to the client so the heat could travel to the other person.  How interesting that this isn`t what happens!

 

Interesting observation.  I hadn't thought of it in that way.  What I have experienced if I put my hand near a quite yin person, which is usually a skinny vegetarian female, they will feel heat from my hand, but I will feel coolness from them.  With physics you can explain this by saying that if you put a hot object near a cold object that an energy transfer will occur.  The cool object will get hotter and the hot object will get cooler.  You could say that if the objects had sensory perception that the hot one would feel coolness from the cooler object and visa versa.

 

So the question is why doesn't the sender of energy feel heat from his own hand?  Well, he's feeling the coolness of the other, for one thing.  Another thing is that maybe he is used to the heat and so it doesn't feel so hot anymore.  It's like after doing chi kung for a long time you feel better and better in steps but later you get used to it so it just feels normal.  Only if you get sick or low on energy then you end up feeling like a 'normal' person which feels not so good ... in comparison to what you are used to.

 

???

Edited July 12, 2017 by Starjumper

[liminal_luke]

22 minutes ago, Brian said:

I'm perfectly fine with pseudo-scientific analogies as long as they are framed in the proper context.  Heck! I'm OK with "centrifugal force" and "atomic models."

 

FWIW, "quantum" really means the smallest possible quantity of "something" and it originates with the idea that light isn't a smooth and continuous flow of non-discrete "something" but is little packets of "something" which each contain a very specific amount of energy.  This one little realization completely blew up what most scientists hubristically thought in the mid-1800s was a nearly complete understanding of matter & energy -- just a few little details to nail down and...  KABOOM!!!

 

Now "quantum" is more commonly thought of as that weird and seemingly impossible realm of experimental & theoretical physics, particularly involving incomprehensibly small stuff and/or unimaginably energetic stuff which doesn't really have any bearing on "the real world" -- except it has become increasingly clear that it is "the real world" (except it isn't "real" in the common sense, either) AND it has everything to do with "how things work" in "the real world."  In this context, it is perfectly OK with me to talk about the sort of "energetic" stuff we tend to talk about here as "quantum" something-or-other...

 

 

Thanks!  The word quantum came to mind because my shiatsu teacher, Lindy Ferringo, was herself a student of Pauline Sasaki, founder of a bodywork style she named "quantum shiatsu." 

 

I like the word "presence" to describe the kind of integration and groundedness a person needs to have to make quantum healing wizardry happen.  When a person has truly developed presence, little details like physical location no longer matter so much.  If we can be truly present in this particular place and time, the place and time where we conventionally appear to be, we can be present anywhere and everywhere.  Or at least I think so.  

Edited July 12, 2017 by liminal_luke

[Brian]

1 minute ago, liminal_luke said:

 

Thanks!  The word quantum came to mind because my Shiatsu teacher, Lindy Ferringo, was herself a student of Pauline Sasaki, founder of a bodywork style she named "quantum shiatsu." 

 

I like the word "presence" to describe the kind of integration and groundedness a person needs to have to make quantum healing wizardry happen.  When a person has truly developed presence, little details like physical location no longer matter so much.  If we can be truly present in this particular place and time, the place and time where we conventionally appear to be, we can be present anywhere and everywhere.  Or at least I think so.  

Yes.  We refer to it as "stopping the world"

[liminal_luke]

2 minutes ago, Brian said:

Yes.  We refer to it as "stopping the world"

 

Fascinating.  I think I`ve read stillness-movement people using that phrasing but didn`t realize what it referred to.  

[allinone]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

Interesting observation.  I hadn't thought of it in that way.  What I have experienced if I put my hand near a quite yin person, which is usually a skinny vegetarian female, they will feel heat from my hand, but I will feel coolness from them.  With physics you can explain this by saying that if you put a hot object near a cold object that an energy transfer will occur.  The cool object will get hotter and the hot object will get cooler.  You could say that if the objects had sensory perception that the hot one would feel coolness from the cooler object and visa versa.

 

So the question is why doesn't the sender of energy feel heat from his own hand?  Well, he's feeling the coolness of the other, for one thing.  Another thing is that maybe he is used to the heat and so it doesn't feel so hot anymore.  It's like after doing chi kung for a long time you feel better and better in steps but later you get used to it so it just feels normal.  Only if you get sick or low on energy then you end up feeling like a 'normal' person which feels not so good ... in comparison to what you are used to.

 

???

 

mind can only have one object at a time.

 

if you see lamp and a ball next to it, then you can look only one at a time, if you see both of them it is lamp and ball together as one.

Edited July 12, 2017 by allinone

[小梦想]

.

Edited August 10, 2018 by 小梦想
Fixed a spelling mistake w-t

[Aeran]

I'm also fairly certain that none of the actual Mo Pai students in Kosta's books trained in anything remotely resembling the method described by the MorePie crew. JC practiced daily, Kosta practiced daily (sometimes for short periods), and someone (I think it was Jim) was mentioned as practicing daily for 15 years at an hour per day. These were actual Mo Pai students who attained actual results in their training.

 

I just re-read the section of Kosta's second book where he gives instructions on basic meditation, and he repeatedly emphasizes daily practice.

 

I also want to raise this a third time, because I think it's important - Kosta states that standing practice is an essential adjunct to seated practice, and that without it, it is impossible to advance in the seated practice. If anyone reading this is attempting any version of what they believe to be the Mo Pai method of neigong, please keep this in mind.

 

The whole attitude to training outlined by Coffee is absurd - even if longer sessions are qualitatively better (which I think is almost universally true, but arguable in this specific case, when they aren't being practiced on a foundation of steady daily training), it makes absolutely no sense to not also integrate a daily session into the training regimen to develop the skill of meditation, to maintain momentum and to get as much meditation done as possible.

 

What he's describing is like trying to become a body builder by training for 10 hours non-stop each weekend then lying around on the couch eating pizza for the other 5 days a week. It's insane.

 

I'm going to be blunt - all of this sounds like little more than cognitive dissonance.

 

What do you do if you want to believe that you have access to a revolutionary and powerful system of spiritual training, but don't want to make the sacrifices required to dedicate yourself to actually practicing it fully? You cook up some half-baked reasoning which states that it's actually not better to build up a disciplined daily practice (which would, after all, take away from valuable time which could be spent shitposting online) despite all evidence and advice to the contrary, and voila! You get to be the one practicing the ONE TRUE SYSTEM... without actually having to practice!

 

You guys claim to simply follow from what Kosta & Jim passed down, but unless I'm very much mistaken, both of them made the advances they made while maintaining their careers and relationships. And Chang was working as a driver into his thirties, with a wife and children, while practicing on the side! 

 

It would be funny if it wasn't so sad :/

Edited July 13, 2017 by Aeran

[Brian]

50 minutes ago, 小梦想 said:

30 mins a day, is far superior to 3 hours once a week.

There are minor details you guys don't have and don't understand. The dantian is like a muscle, it grows over time when you use it. It can only "grow" so much each time, which means that 30 mins a day does more for you over a long period of time than 3 hours once a week does. You are wasting 2 and a half hours if you are in still in the first few years of your training not to mention that the body does use some of that qi over the following days will you train again. You are severely slowing down progress by not practicing each day. 

 

Your belief that 100 days of 10 hours a day is superior only because others say so. I am trying to be helpful here, not trying to be argumentative.

Understandable given the lack of experience but they are being guided by someone who has said he is going to wait until he retires to actually practice.  They bristle at the suggestion because they view him, for some reason, as Mohammed to Chang's Allah, but MPG has done them a grave disservice they simply cannot recognize.

 

People have tried for years, and then simply gave up, but they return over and over to repeat some bizarre ritual or rite of passage.  It is quite strange and more than a little sad.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Brian

[Aeran]

1 minute ago, Brian said:

Understandable given the lack of experience but they are being guided by someone who has said he is going to wait until he retires to actually practice.  They bristle at the suggestion because they view him, for some reason, as Mohammed to Chang's Allah, but MPG has done them a grave disservice they simply cannot recognize.

 

 

Wait, he doesn't practice at all? I thought he at least did long sessions on the weekends.

 

If they truly believed in their training method and the results it offers with the fervor they claim, then shouldn't they be re-organizing their life to prioritize it above everything else?

 

 

[Brian]

7 minutes ago, Aeran said:

 

Wait, he doesn't practice at all? I thought he at least did long sessions on the weekends.

 

If they truly believed in their training method and the results it offers with the fervor they claim, then shouldn't they be re-organizing their life to prioritize it above everything else?

 

 

That's what he told us a few years ago -- he had maxed out their available lessons so it was a waste of time to practice until he could dedicate his entire life to it. At the time, he was working as a PC technician and had both his mother and sister living in the same house with him so he wasn't practicing.  That situation may have changed (or the story may have or whatever) but he was quite adamant about it then.

[Brian]

FWIW, Master Wang Juemin said there were three basic requirements -- be a good and moral person, remain calm, and practice every day.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Brian
Stupid smartphone...

[Wu Ming Jen]

Longmen Dragon Gate This cultivation is not for experimentation or for the ones that are fond of playing or looking for shallow experiences like tourists coming for short visits. One must truly be sincere and upright.
From dawn till dusk, cleanse, filter and wash the heart-mind, eradicate thoughts one by one, and withdraw to the secret storehouse. Bring the intent back to the lower Cinnabar Field as it originally ventures to the outside. Retrieve it to the secret furnace, to the room used for secret purposes.
Would you be able to do it for 24 hours?

 

The majority of Internal Alchemy practitioners’ knowledge is very limited. And there are even fewer who are capable of separating these nine ranks. There is not even one in ten thousand practitioners who has fully comprehended just one method. I have heard about people who have attained the Dao of the heavenly prime. They are only aware of the heavenly prime’s worth but do not know about of the earthly prime and the humanly prime’s wonders. I have heard about the attainment of the earthly prime. However people who ascended through the ingestion of a Daoist pill, only know about the worth of the earthly prime, but are unaware of the heavenly prime and the humanly prime’s wonders. I have heard about of the attainment of the humanly prime. But they do not know the purpose of the heavenly prime and the earthly prime. Even worse they esteem the humanly prime, yet they look down on the heavenly prime, regarding only their own path as the true one. They do not know that the humanly prime is the path for seizing one’s life-destiny. They are unaware that the heavenly prime is about grasping innate nature, and they are not conscious that the earthly prime stands for swallowing a Daoist pill. What a pity! 

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, 小梦想 said:

30 mins a day, is far superior to 3 hours once a week.

There are minor details you guys don't have and don't understand. The dantian is like a muscle, it grows over time when you use it. It can only "grow" so much each time, which means that 30 mins a day does more for you over a long period of time than 3 hours once a week does. You are wasting 2 and a half hours if you are in still in the first few years of your training not to mention that the body does use some of that qi over the following days will you train again. You are severely slowing down progress by not practicing each day. 

 

Your belief that 100 days of 10 hours a day is superior only because others say so. I am trying to be helpful here, not trying to be argumentative.

 

Unfortunately Small Dream we will have to agree to disagree.

[Ilovecoffee]

13 minutes ago, Brian said:

That's what he told us a few years ago -- he had maxed out their available lessons so it was a waste of time to practice until he could dedicate his entire life to it. At the time, he was working as a PC technician and had both his mother and sister living in the same house with him so he wasn't practicing.  That situation may have changed (or the story may have or whatever) but he was quite adamant about it then.

 

Even though it is a waste of time, we all still meditate as we have time. 

 

The progress is slow because we are in the wrong environment, and to get the right environment takes loads of money.

 

If you disagree, then we must agree to disagree.

[Aeran]

10 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Even though it is a waste of time, we all still meditate as we have time. 

 

The progress is slow because we are in the wrong environment, and to get the right environment takes loads of money.

 

If you disagree, then we must agree to disagree.

 

Find a job working 20 - 30 hours a week, working somewhere you can afford a living space with a garden on that salary, and you can easily practice 4 - 6 hours a day with time left over.

 

Obviously this would entail some effort and sacrifices to set up, but if what you have is both as amazing and important as you claim, wouldn't it be worth it? Unless, of course, you're all talk, you simply want to have your cake (or dare I say... Pie?) and eat it too.

[Ilovecoffee]

9 hours ago, Brian said:

In less than thirty minutes you read more than 1,300 posts?

 

Quite impressive.  Seems that perhaps your reading comprehension suffers as a result, though.

 

Made a second pass, still can't find anything.
 

 

 

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

11 hours ago, Brian said:

I quoted Webster, too, in its entirety (rather than just picking those portions which I though supported my claim).  I then went a step further and provided a definition of the phrase you are using rather than a single word in the phrase.  That phrase is a very specific one, you see -- it has very specific meaning and you chose it (well, MPG did, I don't know who you are) precisely because of that specific meaning.  Now you want to (and expect others to) ignore the specific meaning of that particular phrase by insisting on acceptance of a partial definition of one of the constituent words in that very significant phrase.

 

You stop claiming this is "objective evidence" and I'll stop pointing out that it is no such thing.  Conversely, you can provide evidence (see what I did there?) to support the claim that this is "objective evidence."

 

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objective

 

1:

 

b :  of, relating to, or being an object, phenomenon, or condition in the realm of sensible experience independent of individual thought and perceptible by all observers :  having reality independent of the mind objective reality

 

d :  involving or deriving from sense perception or experience with actual objects, conditions, or phenomena

 

 

 

The problem is Brian is that WORDS MEAN THINGS.

 

I am not going to pretend I am not reading the words as they are written.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Ilovecoffee