Long men pai nei gong and mo pai

[blue eyed snake]

well, i do not want to criticize the guy in this picture,

but if that's halflotus even poor lille me can do better...

 

and if my country was that sunny, I would definitely do more sitting outside too

[Starjumper]

3 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

Do you intend to answer of spam the thread more?

 

Let me clarify...

There is no photographic evidence of Jim being grounded by wires on his perineum or of him sitting bare-assed in dirt. Why shouldn't one assume that the visual representation in the PDF is how it is done?

 

He has never been able to answer a critical question with a straight answer.

[Kar3n]

17 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

 

Thanks for the pic, it is a lovely photo of the mountains. Your argument was specific to the contents of the PDF, as was my question. I think you might be side-stepping my question, but that's alright. Thanks anyway...

 

I am not trying to pick on Jim, but that is not half lotus. It might not even be quarter lotus.

[Ilovecoffee]

31 minutes ago, Kar3n said:

Great answer! 

 

Do you intend to answer or spam the thread more?

 

Let me clarify...

There is no photographic evidence of Jim being grounded by wires on his perineum or of him sitting bare-assed in dirt. Why shouldn't one assume that the visual representation in the PDF is how it is done?

 

It didn't post the picture, so I edited it again to make sure that it did.

 

The bare-arsed claim is one you people are making,  not something I said.   Where wires are attached or if a grounding plate is used is something you people also speculate on.

 

Both Kosta and Jim made it absolutely clear that you must either sit on the ground or use a grounding wire.

 

This was omitted from the instructions he provided and it was not from ours.

 

Believe what you like.

 

[9th]

Quote

“We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves strong. The amount of work is the same.”

 

- Castaneda

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

59 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Because all they have is personal testimony to validate the practice.

 

We also do not charge anything.

This is a very personal journey unique to all. A living art not imitation like the dead art of imitation with no guidance of what ever splinter group you pretend to create.

 

One only needs personal testimony. To seek validation from outside of oneself means one is lost, confusion, unknowing and the many attributes you hold on to dearly. A great block you have put in your path 

[TheDustAutumn]

I really don't get how people can believe the more_piei crowd that you need to sit for god knows how many hours per session to make progress. John himself, if i remember correctly was working as a taxi driver and also taking care of his large family(7 kids) while making progress.
There is also the thing with the deep meditation stuff and the 81 hours. Sure, deeper meditation means you gather more chi but just how sure are you that the reverse is not also true? As in you can't enter deep states of meditation UNLESS you already have qi stored. Without qi stored, no matter how much you sit, you might never be able to get into "deep meditation". A beginner without a real dantian and wi stored inside it will never be able to reach those real trance state you keep speaking of. In taoism qi is a means to an end. Like Zhuangzi said: “The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. "
There is also the ideea that you can just train once for 12 hours straight and then just not train for a week or a month and the qi just remains stored and you can continue as if no pause happened. Qi gets used if not repleneshid and more importantly if it's not circulated it gets stale and bad. Once the qi is completely gone and you don't replenish it fast enough, the process of the dantian storing qi needs to get restarted and that usually takes about 10-14 days of daily practice(thats why the Longmen seminars with master Liping last as much as they last, for example).

But anyway I'm glad people are starting to come to their senses and starting to refute this kind of nonsense. It was long overdue

 

[Ilovecoffee]

14 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

This is a very personal journey unique to all. A living art not imitation like the dead art of imitation with no guidance of what ever splinter group you pretend to create.

 

One only needs personal testimony. To seek validation from outside of oneself means one is lost, confusion, unknowing and the many attributes you hold on to dearly. A great block you have put in your path 

 

Wu Ming Jen,

 

There is plenty of personal testimony to support things like magnetic and copper bracelets, homeopathy, etc.

 

Just because millions of people believe something does not, and never has made it true.

 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[Ilovecoffee]

6 minutes ago, TheDustAutumn said:

I really don't get how people can believe the more_piei crowd that you need to sit for god knows how many hours per session to make progress. John himself, if i remember correctly was working as a taxi driver and also taking care of his large family(7 kids) while making progress.
There is also the thing with the deep meditation stuff and the 81 hours. Sure, deeper meditation means you gather more chi but just how sure are you that the reverse is not also true? As in you can't enter deep states of meditation UNLESS you already have qi stored. Without qi stored, no matter how much you sit, you might never be able to get into "deep meditation". A beginner without a real dantian and wi stored inside it will never be able to reach those real trance state you keep speaking of. In taoism qi is a means to an end. Like Zhuangzi said: “The fish trap exists because of the fish. Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap. The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare. "
There is also the ideea that you can just train once for 12 hours straight and then just not train for a week or a month and the qi just remains stored and you can continue as if no pause happened. Qi gets used if not repleneshid and more importantly if it's not circulated it gets stale and bad. Once the qi is completely gone and you don't replenish it fast enough, the process of the dantian storing qi needs to get restarted and that usually takes about 10-14 days of daily practice(thats why the Longmen seminars with master Liping last as much as they last, for example).

But anyway I'm glad people are starting to come to their senses and starting to refute this kind of nonsense. It was long overdue

 

 

TheDustAutumn,

 

This is another claim we aren't making.

 

What was said is that to progress one needs to be in "actual meditation", and that sitting and breathing is about 2% as effective as being in actual meditation.

 

That is what John himself taught, and it is not our opinion.

 

Obviously, John can enter "actual meditation" a minute or so, and we cannot.

 

Each person is different and takes different lengths of time to get there.

 

We aim for 30 minutes spent in "actual meditation" per session.

 

We are not claiming you need to sit for any length of time to reach "actual meditation", it takes the amount of time it takes, and that is different for each person.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2017 by Ilovecoffee

[blue eyed snake]

13 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Wu Ming Jen,

 

There is plenty of personal testimony to support magnets and copper bracelets, homeopathy.

 

Just because millions of people believe something does not, and never has made it true.

 

 

thats strange, regarding cultivation you need something that you want to call scientific evidence.

 

but for those other things suddenly, personal testimony is enough....

 

Edited August 27, 2017 by blue eyed snake

[Ilovecoffee]

Just now, blue eyed snake said:

 

thats strange, regarding cultivation you need something that you want to call scientific evidence.

 

but for those other things suddenly, personal testimony is enough....

 

 

blue eyed snake,

 

I think you misunderstand our position.

 

We don't call what we have scientific because it wasn't replicated or in a published study.

 

We call it objective evidence, and there is a team of scientists and medical doctors present to do their best to attempt to rule out fraud.

 

Homeopathy, magnetic and copper bracelets, millions of people believe these things help them,  but that doesn't make it true, it just makes it their belief.

 

I hope that clarifies things.

 

[TheDustAutumn]

24 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

TheDustAutumn,

 

This is another claim we aren't making.

....

Well, your groups stance on this might have changed since last time I checked but from what I remember they were talking about needing to retire in order to meditate for 10 hours a day and speaking of sitting for hours straight until they were "filled with disgust". I'm sure if you search this forum you'll see what I'm talking about
You still haven't addressed the other criticism I voiced though

Edited August 27, 2017 by TheDustAutumn
spelling errors

[Wu Ming Jen]

24 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

Wu Ming Jen,

 

There is plenty of personal testimony to support things like magnetic and copper bracelets, homeopathy, etc.

 

Just because millions of people believe something does not, and never has made it true.

 

Dumb gets dumber by the minute. good job look over there squirrel!!!!  

[Brian]

On 8/25/2017 at 10:40 PM, Ilovecoffee said:

 

1 hour in "actual meditation" earns you $100, and 1 hour sitting and breathing earns you $2.

 

You can get there sitting and breathing, it just takes longer.

 

We present both what Jim provided and Kosta provided, but we don't alter the contents of either.

 

I hope that makes sense.  

 

So one person sits and breathes an hour a day -- that's about $60 a month. Another person sits and breathes ten hours at a stretch but only once a month -- that's about $20 a month.

 

Arithmetic.

Edited August 28, 2017 by Brian

[silent thunder]

So much care and compassion has been exhibited in this thread.  That accomplished practitioners spend their time and energy to help in conversations of this ilk, to help others, inspires me.  It shows great love and care for others.

 

I'm inspired by the energy spent by those attempting to bring clarity here.  *bow*

 

I am not harboring this compassion myself presently, but feel compelled to echo only my previous notion.

 

The health of the tree is known in its fruit.

 

I walk around the MPie groves I encounter. 

 

Just walk on by... there is no fruit there that I require.

Edited August 27, 2017 by silent thunder
bold for emphasis

[Starjumper]

Some of you are aware of my enjoyment of name calling, so here we go.

 

Western Mo Pai Students is abreviated as WMPS and pronounced: Wimps.

 

So in the future, to make writing a little easier, just use wimps or WMPS and we will all understand what you are referring to.

 

Thank you for your kind attention in this manner.

[blue eyed snake]

 

[Ilovecoffee]

36 minutes ago, Brian said:

So one person sits and breathes an hour a day -- that's about $60 a month. Another person sit and breathes ten hours at a stretch but only once a month -- that's about $20 a month.

 

Arithmetic.

 

If sitting and breathing earns you $2 per minute, there are 60 minutes in an hour, if they meditate 1 hour per day that is $120, and if they meditate 1 hour per day every day for 30 days, that is $3,600 per month for 30 hours of work.

 

If being in "actual" meditation earns $100 per minute, there are 60 minutes in an hour, if they are in "actual meditation, for just 1 hour out of that month, they have earned $6000. 

 

Now if the person can do 1 hour per week earning $6000, that is $24,000 per month, working only 4 hours.  

 

This makes more sense to me than earning $3600 and working 30 hours. 

There is also the fact that these experiences you claim we can't have experienced, do not occur while sitting and breathing, but only during the state of "actual meditation". 

 

We are focused on quality and not quantity but, if you wish to just sit and breathe, that certainly is your prerogative. 

 

 

 

 

[Starjumper]

17 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

 

If sitting and breathing earns you $2 per minute, there are 60 minutes in an hour, if they meditate 1 hour per day that is $120, and if they meditate 1 hour per day every day for 30 days, that is $3,600 per month for 30 hours of work.

 

If being in "actual" meditation earns $100 per minute, there are 60 minutes in an hour, if they are in "actual meditation, for just 1 hour out of that month, they have earned $6000. 

 

Now if the person can do 1 hour per week earning $6000, that is $24,000 per month, working only 4 hours.  

 

This makes more sense to me than earning $3600 and working 30 hours. 

There is also the fact that these experiences you claim we can't have experienced, do not occur while sitting and breathing, but only during the state of "actual meditation". 

 

We are focused on quality and not quantity but, if you wish to just sit and breathe, that certainly is your prerogative. 

 

What a huge clock of clap!

[qofq]

On 7/22/2017 at 3:22 PM, qofq said:

This one is for the humans.  

 

 There is no such thing as "western" mo pai.  The only name that should be ascribed to this group is "foolish"  

 

 The internal arts are humanities most ancient and protected treasure.  Do you think this group are the first batch in 2000 years to try and steal the teaching and  go it alone?  Were are they who have done what these men think they can/are doing?  They are nowhere to be found. I'll bet you can deduce why.  

 

What practices these helpless ignorant minority have gleaned are - AND THIS IS IMPORTANT- INCOMPLETE!

Because they are incomplete as well as unsupervised by an accomplished adept are all but guaranteed to cause injury.   The glaringly egoic and rigid negativity of the poster's energy in this thread should be sounding your alarms. 

 

TLDR

 

1) unrecognized bogus lineage 

2) incomplete dangerous practices

3) obviously and painfully unawakened promoter

 

Only a fool would participate with this group.  

 Two can play at the broken record game and it would seem they both have been going in circles since time immemorial =) 

Edited August 27, 2017 by qofq

[Ilovecoffee]

4 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

What a huge clock of clap!

 

This is from Kosta's public work TMOJ quoting John.

 

 

“In Level One you fill up your dantien with yang ch’i. You must
be in actual meditation to achieve this, and it is time dependent."

 

 

"Perhaps in one hour of sitting, he is actually

in meditation for 1.3 minutes. That means he is meditating only 2.2
percent of the time, which means that if he sits for one hour a day, he
needs ten years of training ..."

 

"Meditation is like the borderline between
sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

"I will enter total meditation—like the borderline
between sleep and waking, okay?"

[Ilovecoffee]

4 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

And for all that focus on quality, absolutely nothing to show except for a constant desire to fight an argument that has already been lost.

 

Drop it already. Go home. Practice. If what you have is so special to you at least, then get off your computer and quit trying to argue. The only one whose time is wasted is yours, especially with how you came in here with a mix of martyr-like victimhood and arrogance for your perceived superiority over other systems and individuals. 

 

You have a choice: drop it. Let it go. Take a break. Come back, participate in other topics and don't call other systems fake because they don't fit into your "scientific" requirements or write off others because they aren't your messiah in Java. Post some music videos on the thread about what we're listening to, some inspiring quotes, share about yourself as a person so that you aren't known as just a caricature of yourself, but an actual human being whom we can relate to outside of this silly argument. I can guarantee the majority of this community will focus on you as a person and other interests if you drop the Mo Pai argument and quit bullying others while crying victimhood here, which you earned as a result of cause and effect. You may even enjoy it here if you stop acting superior. 

 

But if you don't get bliss from your meditative practice, I don't know why you do it. If you don't find yourself happy here on TDB, I don't know why you still come here. If you don't have better things to do besides argue, I have no idea what's going on in your life to be here so frequently amidst so much self-created agony.

 

Let it go and come back when you're ready to be a real person. I'll be one of the first people to welcome you as an actual person if you can do this. Otherwise, you may want to really just leave the forum and have a good life and enjoy the practice if it means so much to you, in spite of everything you have had brought before you this whole summer. 

 

The choice is yours: walk away now and maintain a little dignity, then decide if you never come back or you want to give it a shot again outside of just being another WMP caricature. Or, continue making the same argument again and again and experiencing the agony you have been asking for, knowingly or unknowingly. 

 

 

"don't call other systems fake"

 

I don't believe I have called any other systems here fake,  I said we aren't interested in anything if there isn't objective evidence with scientists and medical doctors present to rule out fraud. 

 

All members are open to the possibility of another school like MoPai and do our best to keep an eye out for such evidence.

 

 

[EmeraldHead]

7 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

If people can do all these things without having active dantiens then what is the usefulness of having one?

Spiritual fetus, a spot in the body with higher voltage = higher push power, opens the path to neidan (on this one I could be wrong), etc

[Starjumper]

38 minutes ago, Ilovecoffee said:

This is from Kosta's public work TMOJ quoting John.

 

 

“In Level One you fill up your dantien with yang ch’i. You must
be in actual meditation to achieve this, and it is time dependent."

 

 

"Perhaps in one hour of sitting, he is actually

in meditation for 1.3 minutes. That means he is meditating only 2.2
percent of the time, which means that if he sits for one hour a day, he
needs ten years of training ..."

 

"Meditation is like the borderline between
sleep and waking, between consciousness and unconsciousness.”

 

"I will enter total meditation—like the borderline
between sleep and waking, okay?"

 

It's bullshit.

[Ilovecoffee]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

It's bullshit.

 

If you want to argue that, fine.

 

All we do is quote him.