Mair 7:7

[Marblehead]

The emperor of the Southern Sea was Lickety, the emperor of the Northern Sea was Split, and the emperor of the Center was Wonton.  {{The undifferentiated soup of primordial chaos.  As it begins to differentiate, dumpling-blobs of matter coalesce.  Wonton soup probably came first as a type of simple early fare.  With the evolution of human consciousness and reflectiveness, the soup was adopted as a suitable metaphor for chaos.  On the connection between wonton soup and cosmic chaos, see Eugene Anderson, The Food of China, p. 191 and Norman Girardot's booklength meditation on the theme of chaos in early Taoism (Myth and Meaning), especially pp. 29-38, citing Wolfram Eberhard, the great authority on the local cultures of China.}}  Lickety and Split often met each other in the land of Wonton, and Wonton treated them very well.  Wanting to repay Wonton's kindness, Lickety and Split said, "All people have seven holes for seeing, hearing, eating, and breathing.  Wonton alone lacks them.  Let's try boring some holes for him."  So every day they bored one hole, and on the seventh day Wonton died.

[Taomeow]

  Wonton is a version of pronouncing hundun.  The primordial chaos is in fact the primordial unity.

 

Chaos=unity. The Chinese are fond of soups because their health and healing tradition asserts that soup is a unity.  Different ingredients have spent time together, under extreme reshaping conditions, had a shared experience, communicated, and came to a mutual agreement regarding the most harmonious coexistence that would be impossible for the separate ingredients under any conditions outside the soup.  It is thought of as establishing a harmonizing pattern in the body because of that, and most Chinese eat soup daily.  (So do most traditional cultures that have preserved their cuisine.)  Chaos=ultimate harmony.  (Yes, our language has tricked us into misunderstanding it, using the word interchangeably with "disorder," "a mess."  Nope.  The source of all order is not a mess.  It's a unity and a harmony.)  

[Michael Sternbach]

There is an interesting parallel here to Platonic cosmology. Before the creation of the cosmos, there was chaos. The four elements were already there in that seething soup, but they were intermingled, thus constantly cancelling each other out. Much like yin and yang in wu chi, I think. And much like the the modern physicist's quantum vacuum, which is charged with energy; from it, countless virtual particles of opposite polarity (matter/anti-matter) issue forth and annihilate each other at an incredible rate.

[Taoist Texts]

In ancient days the Emperor Hong (Huangdi) had a son devoid of ability, who shut himself off from duty, and was a villain in secret, delighting in the practice of the worst vices, and all men called him Hundun (Chaos)

《五帝本纪 - Annals of the Five Emperors》

[Stosh]

We use alphabet soup here in the west as a metaphor for chaos, but actually , either might make for a good breakfast tomorrow morning. 

[Marblehead]

Yeah, dualistically (the way our brain works) there must be an opposite of order.  That would be chaos.

 

Chuang Tzu (or someone else) speaks to chaos again later.  I hope Mair has done the section well.

 

And BTW this is the last section of the "Inner Chapters", that is, the last of what most agree was written by Chuang Tzu himself.

 

Point I get from the section is that we should not mess with chaos because we will likely end up killing it.  (Return to our natural essence.) 

[Stosh]

18 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Yeah, dualistically (the way our brain works) there must be an opposite of order.  That would be chaos.

 

Chuang Tzu (or someone else) speaks to chaos again later.  I hope Mair has done the section well.

 

And BTW this is the last section of the "Inner Chapters", that is, the last of what most agree was written by Chuang Tzu himself.

 

Point I get from the section is that we should not mess with chaos because we will likely end up killing it.  (Return to our natural essence.) 

Sorry I missed the point, Kill chaos? humans are chaotic ? 

[Marblehead]

1 minute ago, Stosh said:

Sorry I missed the point, Kill chaos? humans are chaotic ? 

They killed Wonton trying to make him like every one else.  Wonton was doing just fine until the "learned" tried to modify his nature.  (That was a knock against Confucius.)

 

Yes, when we are still the uncarved wood we appear chaotic.  We are inspired by natural impulses.  No logic or reason.  When we attain the state of not "needing" to do anything we appear to be chaotic - no purpose.  This is the state of wu wei.  

 

 

[kpodhayski]

On 6/25/2017 at 8:53 PM, Marblehead said:

The emperor of the Southern Sea was Lickety, the emperor of the Northern Sea was Split, and the emperor of the Center was Wonton.  {{The undifferentiated soup of primordial chaos.  As it begins to differentiate, dumpling-blobs of matter coalesce.  Wonton soup probably came first as a type of simple early fare.  With the evolution of human consciousness and reflectiveness, the soup was adopted as a suitable metaphor for chaos.  On the connection between wonton soup and cosmic chaos, see Eugene Anderson, The Food of China, p. 191 and Norman Girardot's booklength meditation on the theme of chaos in early Taoism (Myth and Meaning), especially pp. 29-38, citing Wolfram Eberhard, the great authority on the local cultures of China.}}  Lickety and Split often met each other in the land of Wonton, and Wonton treated them very well.  Wanting to repay Wonton's kindness, Lickety and Split said, "All people have seven holes for seeing, hearing, eating, and breathing.  Wonton alone lacks them.  Let's try boring some holes for him."  So every day they bored one hole, and on the seventh day Wonton died.

 

They tried to turn Wonton into a dualist like them (lickety / split) by making him give importance the five senses.

 

They did not understand where wonton's kindness came from. They thought it came from his humanity but it actually came from the Dao. When they drilled the holes in him he went away from the Dao and died.

 

Many people mistake Wu Wei for humanity, and to copy it they drill holes in their head or practice Tai Chi.

[Marblehead]

I liked your post until you got to the words Tai Chi.

 

You should leave Tai Chi alone.  It's bad for your health.