LAOLONG Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) . Edited July 17, 2017 by SHINTO 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) "like in karate " ? You mean 'like in bad karate ' ? 'Punch' can mean soooo much ..... Mr Soken ; " Give me punchy . " .... Why you say 'block', no block ... all punchy ." It can a whole range of strikes, in different ways with different parts of the hand , most of them do not have a straight arm or locked elbow at all. I assume you mean a strike like 'oi tsuki ' , if so , that is supposed to be used in specific circumstances ... which modern karate does not seem to understand . Hence its failure as a 'stand alone' fighting system ... which it isnt , nowadays. Trying to rapid punch or use multiple punches and using oi tsuki for that ... is crazy ! Its not for that at all. Edited June 27, 2017 by Nungali 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted June 27, 2017 (edited) More generally, as in "seiken-choku-tsuki". But even there, a good teacher will tell you not to fully lock the elbow out. That's bad for the joint in the long run. Also, I never rotate my fist fully (so the palm would face the floor) but only to approximately a 45° angle, which further helps preventing hyper-extension. Edited June 27, 2017 by Michael Sternbach 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Training scenario ; " Punch me ! " " Okay " ..... pow ! "No, not like that ?" " Well. like what then , a jab, upper cut, cross, ??? " " Just a normal punch ." " ... Oi tsuki and then stop , so you can take advantage of my one arm extended and hanging there in the air after I punch and the other retracted to my side so I cant defend with it , that one ? " - that seems to annoy my 'instructor' . Then, when I go to show him a similar but new technique , he is both hands up and jabs . ... and the rest of class is watching ; " You GUYS! " Edited June 28, 2017 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: More generally, as in "seiken-choku-tsuki". But even there, a good teacher will tell you not to fully lock the elbow out. That's bad for the joint in the long run. Also, I never rotate my fist fully (so the palm would face the floor) but only to approximately a 45° angle, which further helps preventing hyper-extension. ... and knees ! I know a few guys got artificial knees now ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 28, 2017 I might add though ... in all our 'playing' over the years (mine and instructors and another valuable 'student' (the tai chi instructor ) , we seem to have got back to a lot nearer of the original art of our real teacher . Even related clubs descended directly from him, and some of their instructors ( teacher's other students ) seem to have devolved to 'modern Japanese style ' .... which is a real bummer .... since this should actually be preserving original and traditional forms . . . which they do .... but then they seem to forget the original principles behind those forms . IMO its an influence from 'professional schools' and people trying to make an income out of it - a business , goota offer what the customer wants. (I thought I better explain that as I might have made our training to look like an actual hemozzle ( I wrote shemozzle, but that looked a bit sexist. ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LAOLONG Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) . Edited July 17, 2017 by SHINTO 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted June 28, 2017 9 minutes ago, Nungali said: ... and knees ! I know a few guys got artificial knees now ! Yes. Arthritis is very common among long-standing Karate practitioners. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted June 28, 2017 21 minutes ago, Nungali said: I might add though ... in all our 'playing' over the years (mine and instructors and another valuable 'student' (the tai chi instructor ) , we seem to have got back to a lot nearer of the original art of our real teacher . Even related clubs descended directly from him, and some of their instructors ( teacher's other students ) seem to have devolved to 'modern Japanese style ' .... which is a real bummer .... since this should actually be preserving original and traditional forms . . . which they do .... but then they seem to forget the original principles behind those forms . IMO its an influence from 'professional schools' and people trying to make an income out of it - a business , goota offer what the customer wants. (I thought I better explain that as I might have made our training to look like an actual hemozzle ( I wrote shemozzle, but that looked a bit sexist. ) The reasons why the original forms and their applications were modified include the aim to keep potentially dangerous knowledge away from children and foreigners and turn Karate into a sport. But it seems like interest in the old ways has grown during the last few decades. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) Oh yeah , that too of course . An interesting historical story there . There IS an interest in the old form growing ? I have not noticed that . Eg . Part of the exam for the Godan (5th Dan) test for Bujinkan , discussed in this part of this thread * requires good performance of 'Chinto Form' , yet looking at their exams, this is not an 'original Chinto' but some 'developed' ' changed' modern form . I am assuming my form is the correct original as Chinto comes from Bushi , after he fought and tried to apprehend 'Chinto' a Chinese 'pirate', shipwrecked in Okinawa . Chinto ( the pirate ) > 'Bushi' (warrior) Matsamura Soken > 'Nabe' Matasmura Nabetanme ( 'Bushi's grandson) - Seito (family style ) > Hohan Soken (nephew ) > Kosei Nishihira ( internationally recognized as the heir of Karate Matsumura Seito of Grand Master Soken.[10][11] - Wiki ) > my instructor - no one else seems to do Chinto this way , even 'so called' other ' Shorin ryu Matsamura Seito ' 'styles' ( seito is supposed to mean ' family tradition or way ' of knowledge from teacher to student ) . The form of Chinto I practice comes from my instructor, and others, who used to train with Mr Nishihira and Hohan Soken , and from film I have observed from Hohan Soken and Kosei Nishihira , on the internet ' unpublished ' . And Chinto ('modified' ) is needed for a 'ninjutsu' examination ? * Edited June 28, 2017 by Nungali Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted June 28, 2017 24 minutes ago, Nungali said: Oh yeah , that too of course . An interesting historical story there . There IS an interest in the old form growing ? I have not noticed that . Yes, there is. Some of the more famous advocates of this movement include George Dillman, Shiro Asano, Vince Morris, and Iain Abernethy, but there are also many others. As an indication of the vivid interest, books and videos available on bunkai, kyusho, tuite etc. are increasing fast. 24 minutes ago, Nungali said: Eg . Part of the exam for the Godan (5th Dan) test for Bujinkan , discussed in this part of this thread * requires good performance of 'Chinto Form' , yet looking at their exams, this is not an 'original Chinto' but some 'developed' ' changed' modern form . I am assuming my form is the correct original as Chinto comes from Bushi , after he fought and tried to apprehend 'Chinto' a Chinese 'pirate', shipwrecked in Okinawa . Chinto ( the pirate ) > 'Bushi' (warrior) Matsamura Soken > 'Nabe' Matasmura Nabetanme ( 'Bushi's grandson) - Seito (family style ) > Hohan Soken (nephew ) > Kosei Nishihira ( internationally recognized as the heir of Karate Matsumura Seito of Grand Master Soken.[10][11] - Wiki ) > my instructor - no one else seems to do Chinto this way , even 'so called' other ' Shorin ryu Matsamura Seito ' 'styles' ( seito is supposed to mean ' family tradition or way ' of knowledge from teacher to student ) . The form of Chinto I practice comes from my instructor, and others, who used to train with Mr Nishihira and Hohan Soken , and from film I have observed from Hohan Soken and Kosei Nishihira , on the internet ' unpublished ' . I loved the Shotokan version of that kata at the time I was practising that style of Karate. It is called Gangaku ("crane on a rock") there and is believed to be derived from an old version of White Crane Kung Fu. Nowadays, I would cross-reference the form to its oldest extant variations, of course. 24 minutes ago, Nungali said: And Chinto ('modified' ) is needed for a 'ninjutsu' examination ? * It's called "cross training." 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said: Yes, there is. Some of the more famous advocates of this movement include George Dillman, Shiro Asano, Vince Morris, and Iain Abernethy, but there are also many others. As an indication of the vivid interest, books and videos available on bunkai, kyusho, tuite etc. are increasing fast. Dillman ? ! I heard Dilman himself say after one session with Hohan Soken In USA that he was invited by Hohan Soken to come to Okinawa and learn and train more ? Because he didnt have a clue what he was doing. ... according to Dillman himself . Anyway , can you direct me to a vid of this ? I would like to see it ! If they are going back to an original form, where are they getting that from ? Or do you mean that Okinawan karate generally, as a root of karate is becoming more popular ? I am guessing you mean generally as bunkai, kyusho, tuite etc. are common to Okinawan karate generally. Dillman would have learnt that way back after this : Hohan Soken to Dilman (after Dillman's performance and demonstrations ) ; " You do beautiful kata ... but you dont know why. To see that hurts me here < touches his heart > , you come my place we have 3 hour training session ... we do kumite . " Yikes ! Later Dillman : " Ohhh he knew ..... everything .... I thought I was going to die ! .... " But he never went back to learn it . Even though he now 10th Dan Soken to Dillman ; " In Okinawa , we make American maybe 1 or 2 dan , they never come back. Now in America, 3, 4 even 5 dan , how that happen ... they never come back ? " Dillman < aside and later > " I thought, Oh God, please dont ask me what dan I am . " (That must have been after his '3 hour private lesson ' .... with kumite ) Quote I loved the Shotokan version of that kata at the time I was practising that style of Karate. It is called Gangaku ("crane on a rock") there and is believed to be derived from an old version of White Crane Kung Fu. Ooooo ! How did that happen ? The original form of Matsumura Soken 's form was highly influenced by white crane , this is what is a large part of the missing applications , in all the kata . The whole 'style' is based on part of white crane and the main kata is Hakutsuru - crane (again doe different to all others ) . The 'on a rock' was Chinto's defending position in the back of the cave he had camped out in, up the back on a higher rock (maybe developed from fighting on multi level surfaces as a pirate would on boat decking and stairs ? ) , I think that was the position he retreated to in the fight that Bushi could not defeat him from . Quote Nowadays, I would cross-reference the form to its oldest extant variations, of course. How would you do that ? And how would you find the oldest extant variations ? Even okinawan styles do Chinto like ' Gangaku' . Quote It's called "cross training." 'Multiculturalism ' Edited June 28, 2017 by Nungali 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 28, 2017 I found this Which of course, as usual, totally ignores the family tradition of Matsumura Soken and his line of private students through their family tradition that existed up to a few years ago ... even though many world famous big name karate-ka trained with them privately . And they keep referring to the 'hook stance' in Chinto , as 'Crane stance' which is a different stance , as in the Crane kata hakutsuru ... ... arrrghh! The knowledge is well out there (wiki) and virtually every single 'history' ignores it . Anywayz I guess peeps 'got their hands on it' and changed it . Called it crane on a rock then called the hook stance a crane stance to go along with the name change . this is the earliest Chinto I could find unfortunately the film is damaged at the end and Hohan Soken's kata is completed in the end section by a young Kosie Nishihira . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chang Posted June 28, 2017 In martial arts, qigong and life in general the reason for not locking the joints - we are specifically talking of the knees and elbows here - is twofold. As regards martial arts a locked joint is easily broken either by a blow or a lock. Not locking the knees and elbows is simply self preservation. With qigong and life in general the locked joint obstructs free circulation of both blood and energy. Locked knees is one of the reasons soldiers faint on parade grounds, especially in hot weather, the locked knees preventing the free flow of blood, the brain becomes starved and the poor squaddy faints, falls to the ground, relaxes and the blood flows freely again. Don't lock the joints. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Michael Sternbach Posted June 28, 2017 7 hours ago, Nungali said: Dillman ? ! I heard Dilman himself say after one session with Hohan Soken In USA that he was invited by Hohan Soken to come to Okinawa and learn and train more ? Because he didnt have a clue what he was doing. ... according to Dillman himself . Dillman was one of the instructors who greatly popularized the traditional Okinawan methods. I did not claim anything else. Quote Anyway , can you direct me to a vid of this ? I would like to see it ! A video of what? Not sure what you mean. Quote If they are going back to an original form, where are they getting that from ? Or do you mean that Okinawan karate generally, as a root of karate is becoming more popular ? I am guessing you mean generally as bunkai, kyusho, tuite etc. are common to Okinawan karate generally. What I meant is that these aspects (originally derived from Okinawan Karate, of course) are being studied and reintegrated by numerous Karate schools and teachers, including some that represent the younger Japanese styles; examples being Iain Abernethy (Wado-ryu), Chris Denwood (Wado-ryu), Werner Lind (Shotokan). Quote Dillman would have learnt that way back after this : Hohan Soken to Dilman (after Dillman's performance and demonstrations ) ; " You do beautiful kata ... but you dont know why. To see that hurts me here < touches his heart > , you come my place we have 3 hour training session ... we do kumite . " Yikes ! Later Dillman : " Ohhh he knew ..... everything .... I thought I was going to die ! .... " But he never went back to learn it . Even though he now 10th Dan Soken to Dillman ; " In Okinawa , we make American maybe 1 or 2 dan , they never come back. Now in America, 3, 4 even 5 dan , how that happen ... they never come back ? " Dillman < aside and later > " I thought, Oh God, please dont ask me what dan I am . " (That must have been after his '3 hour private lesson ' .... with kumite ) Ooooo ! How did that happen ? Well, when Funakoshi introduced Karate to mainland Japan, he changed the Chinese sounding names of many kata to Japanese ones in order to make them more acceptable to the new audience. Quote The original form of Matsumura Soken 's form was highly influenced by white crane , this is what is a large part of the missing applications , in all the kata . The whole 'style' is based on part of white crane and the main kata is Hakutsuru - crane (again doe different to all others ) . The 'on a rock' was Chinto's defending position in the back of the cave he had camped out in, up the back on a higher rock (maybe developed from fighting on multi level surfaces as a pirate would on boat decking and stairs ? ) , I think that was the position he retreated to in the fight that Bushi could not defeat him from . How would you do that ? And how would you find the oldest extant variations ? Even okinawan styles do Chinto like ' Gangaku' . It is hard to know if the exciting story of Matsumura being unable to beat that thief and subsequently learning his fighting secrets from him really happened. "Chen tou" is the name of a form in the Fujian style Five Ancestors Fist, a blend of White Crane with other arts. Chen tou has many technical similarities especially with the Tomari version of the Okinawan Chinto kata. - So the video you present in your next post is also incorrect in stating that there is no Chinese form known that corresponds with Chinto kata. According to Funakoshi (in a 1914 newspaper interview), the Chinese castaway on Tomari taught various forms to a group of advanced practitioners. The Budostudienkreis around Werner Lind, which did a lot of research into the history of the forms, concluded that the first Okinawan Chinto version was actually Tomari no Chinto, passed on by Gusukuma Shiroma. It is quite different from Kosaku Matsumora's version which was the one picked up (but perhaps also influenced) by Sokon Matsumura. Quote 'Multiculturalism ' Nungali, seriously... You should wait with lighting your joint until you're done commenting on my posts. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spotless Posted June 28, 2017 (edited) In Shaolin Qi Gong arts the knee is often "locked", and the knee often bends past the front of the foot. Blood flow (in my case anyway) is not reduced by a "locked" knee. Yoga is not concerned about "locked" knee problems and I have never heard of a mention of it - nor problems from it. Obviously in martial arts a locked knee is undesirable as is any "fixed" positioning - it is a sort of loss of center as well as a mechanical disadvantage. I know of no one that is able to control blood flow and discuss it that mentions problems with a fixed knee position as reducing flow. I can see someone passing out in the heat standing for long periods and fainting - and when they are on the ground blood flows better to their head - but why it flows better to the head has nothing to do with them bending their knees and letting blood flow - it has everything to do with being in a prone position and also in the sudden excitement of fainting and reviving and coming to grips with heat stroke and or non-movement for so long. Standing straight has many mechanical advantages and zero health related problems - it is simply not advised for martial arts applications - and that is good advice for martial arts sciences. In both Yoga and Qi Gong the wrists are frequently stretched along with the fingers and unlike the knees hyper extension is not really possible with the wrist - they simply become more and more flexible - I have never heard of anyconsideration regarding hyper extension of the wrist. In Qi Gong (Fohan Quan) we also stretch the wrists from side to side - and this is taught by a legendary Kung Fu Grand Master. As a side note - arthritis is almost entirely related to diet - it will definitely effect areas that have been traumatized but the traumatized areas do not cause the arthritis - diet and DNA are the primary cause. In most cases it can be completely removed. In few cases are people interested in making sufficient diet and life changes in order to make it happen - and so they also do not believe it can work. Obviously areas that have sustained considerable trauma and are mechanically compromised need attention and special consideration during movement - and once past the point of loss of certain inner protective sheathing they will become painful - but they do not need to decend then into arthritis and diet is of the utmost importance in this regard both in no need for chronic erosion and in recuperation. Diet and very carful mechanical considerations such as braces, chairs, sleep positions and getting around in better less stressful ways until the best results are achieved are things to be mindful of regarding injuries. Edited June 28, 2017 by Spotless 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 29, 2017 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Dillman was one of the instructors who greatly popularized the traditional Okinawan methods. I did not claim anything else. yeah, I was just trying to get clear on what you meant. 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: A video of what? Not sure what you mean. I meant , the ealry history of chinto , but I found one and put it up . 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: What I meant is that these aspects (originally derived from Okinawan Karate, of course) are being studied and reintegrated by numerous Karate schools and teachers, including some that represent the younger Japanese styles; examples being Iain Abernethy (Wado-ryu), Chris Denwood (Wado-ryu), Werner Lind (Shotokan). Thanks, thats what I assumed by 'generally' , as I outlined above ... up there somewhere ^ 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Well, when Funakoshi introduced Karate to mainland Japan, he changed the Chinese sounding names of many kata to Japanese ones in order to make them more acceptable to the new audience. Yup . Thats one reason . 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: It is hard to know if the exciting story of Matsumura being unable to beat that thief and subsequently learning his fighting secrets from him really happened. Thats the 'mainstream ' story .... so far .... 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: "Chen tou" is the name of a form in the Fujian style Five Ancestors Fist, a blend of White Crane with other arts. Chen tou has many technical similarities especially with the Tomari version of the Okinawan Chinto kata. Thats the stuff I was looking for , thankyou ! 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: - So the video you present in your next post is also incorrect in stating that there is no Chinese form known that corresponds with Chinto kata. yes, thanks , I did not think that vid was very comprehensive after watching it all . 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: According to Funakoshi (in a 1914 newspaper interview), the Chinese castaway on Tomari taught various forms to a group of advanced practitioners. The Budostudienkreis around Werner Lind, which did a lot of research into the history of the forms, concluded that the first Okinawan Chinto version was actually Tomari no Chinto, passed on by Gusukuma Shiroma. Aha ! 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: It is quite different from Kosaku Matsumora's version which was the one picked up (but perhaps also influenced) by Sokon Matsumura. yeah , like I inferred above . its probably a case of many changes and forms ; in that vid I posted he also talks about a different 'old' Chinto within a style based on a different 'family's 'Seito' form . 15 hours ago, Michael Sternbach said: Nungali, seriously... You should wait with lighting your joint until you're done commenting on my posts. Sorry , next time , I try to fly right and straight and not by the seat of my pants . Spoiler Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted June 29, 2017 PS can you give me source on this when I enlarge it it blurs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
