Also my personal experiences aren't all puppies and rainbows, most of them are very dark, and that doesn't sell well. People want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, and there is no way to say otherwise without becoming the bad guy

[qicat]

so...

 

since I have no experience with Meow Pai and the likes, however, I see a lot of similarities in the systems and I have a strong suspicion that at the certain level they are all the same in Daoist's school. Some lock their students for 90 days into darkness, some "speedlight" it to the point of "insanity" and if one passes, well, next level in video game had been achieved...

 

I would like to hear more personal stories about the phrase above... Feel free to use "my friend once told me" vs "one time I did XYZ and I know if I tell you , you will think I am officially crazy..."

 

I would like to move beyond creating fire, moving objects and other "circus" stuff... 

 

I am particularly interested in "dark" stuff. ( as I mentioned before my Sifu warned me about "tuff stuff coming", but I guess my naivette is not comprehending the "heaviness" of it). Sometimes it is EXTREMELY shitty. Like "kill me now" shitty.

 

discuss...

 

p.s. the quote is from the threat about you know what, but I am afraid it will be banned soon. However, would like to discuss this topic in detail without attachment to any lineage. 

 

[Kar3n]

Most, if not all, of my dark, heavy experiences have been moving beyond myself and all of the preconceived notions and personal injustices I had attached myself to. There have been times when sharing space with someone I felt as if I were under attack, literal physical body sensations and heinous visions. It was only me and my own issues being brought to the surface by the other person who likely shared a very similar attachment or issue from this or a previous life. There have been times when I have picked up on another person transmitting energy and some of those times have been difficult to manage. It took a long while, but, most of the time, i'm able to not attach a "story" to what I am feeling and just allow all that I am feeling or sensing to pass through as just energy.

 

I have told every person that I have worked with that energy work is not easy, it is hard, it is personal and it will kick your ass, but you will be clearer after working through the rough spots and coming out on the other side wondering why it was so rough in the first place.

[liminal_luke]

Most things worth doing involve some discomfort and unease, and my experience is that spiritual work is no exception.  The point of the work is to change (or perhaps to realize that change is not necessary which amounts, imo, to the same thing).  And being human, we have resistance to change.  If the work is effective it will bump me up against that resistance in a way that is uncomfortable, at times excruciating.  There`s an art to pacing, I think.  Not backing off so far that the work doesn`t happen, not being so gung-ho that it happens in a way I`m unable to integrate.  

 

Of course, the flip-side is that it also feels very good.  Spiritual work brings me closer to myself, and there`s a lot of satisfaction and bliss in that.

 

Just lately I`ve been doing some work that opens up my breathing.  In the process I meet the resistance and tension that had me clamping down in the first place -- no fun.  But as things proceed I feel more free, more open, more expanded.  

 

 

[Ilovecoffee]

2 hours ago, qicat said:

 

I would like to move beyond creating fire, moving objects and other "circus" stuff... 

 

 

This sort of thing is exactly what I was talking about, and exactly why I can't discuss it in public.

 

Strangely you copy and paste my words for your title but instruct everyone not to talk about what they were originally referring to.

 

 

[Earl Grey]

I find the ego becomes a bigger issue the deeper I go into practice. Recently, one of my teachers told me that and I thought it was just a cop out considering I have no problem being seen as a fool or being laughed at, and thought that I conquered my ego. 

 

Turns out he refers to the subconscious ego as well as the conscious ego. Meaning the things I don't even know that I believe, think, and feel, which only come up when people press my buttons.

 

There is one scene in the movie Revolver where Jason Statham's character slays the ego by doing exactly the opposite of what it's ordering him to do. I have come to a point where I do that 95% of the time at best, but now feel I have done it about 75% of the time now that I factor in subconscious ego. 

 

It's a scary thing knowing how much the ego tries to preserve itself, and when you mix in the Taoist alchemies out there, you become a beacon drawing in as much as you endure, which I will even include an argument that I had here on TDB the other week. At the same time, you are also transmitting that energy. 

 

The training I have received encourages all of this ego crushing, because Te needs to develop in order to have the qi have a natural place to express itself properly. It is akin to walking into a courtroom to argue your defense while dressed up as a clown and trying to be as serious as possible with your arguments without losing your cool as people listen to you and laugh or completely ignore you because you look like a clown.

 

I deal with anger, sadness, self-doubt, and outright despair at times because I come to a point where I say, "Boy, you are a little shit and everyone knows what an asshole you are." It takes the Te and the mandatory literature and guidance of my teachers to come and pull out those weeds while helping me cultivate a garden of virtue, and it's--please excuse my language--fucking hard. 

 

How it has manifested energetically outside of just ego challenges has also led to seeing bizarre things when I look in the mirror for one of our mirror meditations, and I no longer look at my face, but see my face, which is not the insecurities and judgments for what it should be, but rather, what is. It's scary. It's beautiful. It's haunting. It's familiar. It's vulnerable. It's hurting. It's fragile. It's durable. It's steadfast. It's...me. 

[Jeff]

37 minutes ago, Earl Grey said:

I find the ego becomes a bigger issue the deeper I go into practice. Recently, one of my teachers told me that and I thought it was just a cop out considering I have no problem being seen as a fool or being laughed at, and thought that I conquered my ego. 

 

Turns out he refers to the subconscious ego as well as the conscious ego. Meaning the things I don't even know that I believe, think, and feel, which only come up when people press my buttons.

 

There is one scene in the movie Revolver where Jason Statham's character slays the ego by doing exactly the opposite of what it's ordering him to do. I have come to a point where I do that 95% of the time at best, but now feel I have done it about 75% of the time now that I factor in subconscious ego. 

 

It's a scary thing knowing how much the ego tries to preserve itself, and when you mix in the Taoist alchemies out there, you become a beacon drawing in as much as you endure, which I will even include an argument that I had here on TDB the other week. At the same time, you are also transmitting that energy. 

 

The training I have received encourages all of this ego crushing, because Te needs to develop in order to have the qi have a natural place to express itself properly. It is akin to walking into a courtroom to argue your defense while dressed up as a clown and trying to be as serious as possible with your arguments without losing your cool as people listen to you and laugh or completely ignore you because you look like a clown.

 

I deal with anger, sadness, self-doubt, and outright despair at times because I come to a point where I say, "Boy, you are a little shit and everyone knows what an asshole you are." It takes the Te and the mandatory literature and guidance of my teachers to come and pull out those weeds while helping me cultivate a garden of virtue, and it's--please excuse my language--fucking hard. 

 

How it has manifested energetically outside of just ego challenges has also led to seeing bizarre things when I look in the mirror for one of our mirror meditations, and I no longer look at my face, but see my face, which is not the insecurities and judgments for what it should be, but rather, what is. It's scary. It's beautiful. It's haunting. It's familiar. It's vulnerable. It's hurting. It's fragile. It's durable. It's steadfast. It's...me. 

 

I think you raise a very good point.  It often seems like we start to develop almost a spiritual ego as we continue on the path. Often can come with almost a righteous belief that our method/path is the best, and often feel the need/desire to be a teacher.

[Earl Grey]

 

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I think you raise a very good point.  It often seems like we start to develop almost a spiritual ego as we continue on the path. Often can come with almost a righteous belief that our method/path is the best, and often feel the need/desire to be a teacher.

 

God knows I won't ever say my path or what my teachers offer is the best. It's an option and it's not for those who fear discipline, and even then, I am training under four teachers (five if you count the one who died seven years ago but is succeeded by his widow) at once who just so happen to have a lot of extreme overlap without ever having met each other. It's my path, and I chose it, and I don't recommend it, because it's what I needed, since it speaks to my soul. 

 

"Laugh at yourself! I'm laughing at you! Laugh at yourself with me!" Sifu Eric said this to me once when I had thrown an ego tantrum of victimization and self-importance when I felt I wasn't being heard the umpteenth time about an injustice I had suffered years ago.

 

The ego is the butler, not the master, and it's a child that wants wants wants wants wants all the time. 

 

I thank these moments even when I embarrass myself on some threads here because it reminds me to hold nothing sacred and not take myself so god damn seriously, and I have a lot to learn. One way to slay the ego is to not feed the negative ego, and to instead remind it of its place, especially to connect to others on their ego level and ideally bring all of you up. 

 

I could only hope that in ten years, twenty years, fifty years--I have something to show for my progress, but for now, being in the realm of the shadows and dealing with personal demons, I can at least say it's not so bad and we are not alone in this self work. 

[blue eyed snake]

yes, the path is hard but it's worth all the effort and pain,

to know that were nothing opens the way to being all

 

love Bes

[thursday]

Yeah, a lot of the thoughts that go through my head often aren't fun to hear and I expect part of that is because of purification, but the other part is likely me holding on to things that are not good for me.

 

I have no experience with other paths that much, but I have ignored clear warning signs before because of curiosity and doubts persuading me to take an "easier route". That "curiosity" did no good for me..

 

If something looks not quite right on the surface at first glance, you are likely better to keep on moving through.. Which is what we should always do anyway.. Not seek trouble, as there will be enough to deal with already!

 

[blue eyed snake]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

I think you raise a very good point.  It often seems like we start to develop almost a spiritual ego as we continue on the path. Often can come with almost a righteous belief that our method/path is the best, and often feel the need/desire to be a teacher.

 

 

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

 

 

God knows I won't ever say my path or what my teachers offer is the best. It's an option and it's not for those who fear discipline, and even then, I am training under four teachers (five if you count the one who died seven years ago but is succeeded by his widow) at once who just so happen to have a lot of extreme overlap without ever having met each other. It's my path, and I chose it, and I don't recommend it, because it's what I needed, since it speaks to my soul. 

 

"Laugh at yourself! I'm laughing at you! Laugh at yourself with me!" Sifu Eric said this to me once when I had thrown an ego tantrum of victimization and self-importance when I felt I wasn't being heard the umpteenth time about an injustice I had suffered years ago.

 

The ego is the butler, not the master, and it's a child that wants wants wants wants wants all the time. 

 

I thank these moments even when I embarrass myself on some threads here because it reminds me to hold nothing sacred and not take myself so god damn seriously, and I have a lot to learn. One way to slay the ego is to not feed the negative ego, and to instead remind it of its place, especially to connect to others on their ego level and ideally bring all of you up. 

 

I could only hope that in ten years, twenty years, fifty years--I have something to show for my progress, but for now, being in the realm of the shadows and dealing with personal demons, I can at least say it's not so bad and we are not alone in this self work. 

 

yeah, the spiritual ego, the "look how holy I am" is well known.

but I gather that Earl is talking about something else. A sort of...err, a part of our egoness that were not aware of, but that's still there, and we only  meet it when others, teachers, ( in a broad sense) confront us with it. When confronted one can learn to recognize those parts of our feeling of 'I'. It's a sort of undercurrent, anyway, that's how it feels for me.

 

Last I read the tales of power from Castaneda, the last part of that book deals with the Tonal and the Nagual. I found that very interesting. It sort of describes this process, called the shrinking of the Tonal. For me it was worthwhile reading, I think because it is described in another way than usual, thereby forcing me out of accustomed ways of thinking 

[Brian]

We each have a shadow self we cannot see except through our interactions with others.  Traits we seek to repress grow stronger there.  Learning to recognize and face our shadows is something most people never do except, perhaps, tangentially and then we usually rationalize it away.

[qicat]

43 minutes ago, Brian said:

We each have a shadow self we cannot see except through our interactions with others.  Traits we seek to repress grow stronger there.  Learning to recognize and face our shadows is something most people never do except, perhaps, tangentially and then we usually rationalize it away.

well, but to be fair, there is no way for one to learn it unless they run into a system/program/teacher by fate/destiny. That's why I quoted that particular part of the other 13 pages topic. I thought he was actually speaking from experience that "most of them are very dark, and that doesn't sell well. People want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, and there is no way to say otherwise without becoming the bad guy". 

 

We think we are "tuff" enough to face our demons, but from personal experience, I can tell you that it ain't the case. For me, when that "pouring boiling hot water" is all over you ( or all your internal organs are on fire) and the pain is physical/emotional/energetic and lasts for days... then you start questioning your path... And your Sifu "beats you up" for not doing practice everyday and you try to negotiate..."but I cannot do standing practice, because I cannot physically stand". ( pain is too much to move). 

 

Now, I know it is "purging" stuff and there are "levels of onions" to clean up...

 

Mental anguish and such... yes, some people suffer from it, but mental part is the easiest to break ( if you have proper teachings).

 

Energetic pain stuff... yes, you can learn to control qi and lead it with your Mind. Takes lots of time and practice, but theoretically it is possible.

 

Spiritual pain stuff...couple times during training I think I ended up in few places where it is a little bit "too dangerous". Sifu told me, "cat. focus.  otherwise you will be killed. it does not matter if asteroids are blasting around you, if cosmic battles are raging, if you are being attacked by monsters, if you are  doing crazy sh*t... focus on what I told you to do and do it...everything else is a distraction(*) no matter how real it looks ( trust me, it looks and feels VERY real, especially pain ) 

 

... that's why I thought whoever wrote the quote knew a little bit of what comes after "love and light and let's do yoga pose and think about world peace"... I was wrong... oh well...

 

however, I think the discussion is excellent and lets people reflect on the subject without  "school fundamentalists" attachments.

 

(*) even dragons

Edited June 28, 2017 by qicat

[blue eyed snake]

ah, but we are all different, your hardest part may be different then mine. And also the way we go along with our development. You've got a teacher who, probably rightly so, urges you to go on. Mine told me to take it easy ( and I should have taken it even easier..)

 

maybe path is the same but we have each our own pitfalls, like :where I fall you only stumble and vice versa

[allinone]

41 minutes ago, qicat said:

well, but to be fair, there is no way for one to learn it unless they run into a system/program/teacher by fate/destiny. That's why I quoted that particular part of the other 13 pages topic. I thought he was actually speaking from experience that "most of them are very dark, and that doesn't sell well. People want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, and there is no way to say otherwise without becoming the bad guy". 

 

We think we are "tuff" enough to face our demons, but from personal experience, I can tell you that it ain't the case. For me, when that "pouring boiling hot water" is all over you ( or all your internal organs are on fire) and the pain is physical/emotional/energetic and lasts for days... then you start questioning your path... And your Sifu "beats you up" for not doing practice everyday and you try to negotiate..."but I cannot do standing practice, because I cannot physically stand". ( pain is too much to move). 

 

Now, I know it is "purging" stuff and there are "levels of onions" to clean up...

 

Mental anguish and such... yes, some people suffer from it, but mental part is the easiest to break ( if you have proper teachings).

 

Energetic pain stuff... yes, you can learn to control qi and lead it with your Mind. Takes lots of time and practice, but theoretically it is possible.

 

Spiritual pain stuff...couple times during training I think I ended up in few places where it is a little bit "too dangerous". Sifu told me, "cat. focus.  otherwise you will be killed. it does not matter if asteroids are blasting around you, if cosmic battles are raging, if you are being attacked by monsters, if you are  doing crazy sh*t... focus on what I told you to do and do it...everything else is a distraction(*) no matter how real it looks ( trust me, it looks and feels VERY real, especially pain ) 

 

... that's why I thought whoever wrote the quote knew a little bit of what comes after "love and light and let's do yoga pose and think about world peace"... I was wrong... oh well...

 

however, I think the discussion is excellent and lets people reflect on the subject without  "school fundamentalists" attachments.

 

(*) even dragons

 

in the movie where the Rambo was tortured, he was asked if he know pain. Rambo said he was married...twice.

[Aetherous]

Sometimes the obstacle on the path is a test...in which case, we have to just do it, come what may. From our perspective, we might even die in the process.

The path is all about what we want. If our desire for the ultimate (whatever that may be) is strong enough, then death is nothing to us. If we don't want it enough, then we will give up in surmounting the obstacle in favor of survival.

Sometimes there is help from above...other times, we're meant to develop our capabilities on our own, and no help comes.

If our guidance is coming from a good source, then we can trust it and face death, and find out that it was just an illusion. If our guidance is coming from a lesser source, then we might be taking our own lives listening to it, without reason.

On the other hand...sometimes we need to do what it takes to get better and it's not actually a test we're facing. What do we want, in life, in practice, from ourselves? It's all about what we want.

Edited June 28, 2017 by Aetherous

[allinone]

qicat

if you say that you are controlling qi with your mind...

 

There is substance what can take any shape. If you get pass 3rd skandha its available.

pass 2nd skandha your substance can travel.

[allinone]

not sure when you can do Osmosis.

[qicat]

7 minutes ago, allinone said:

qicat

if you say that you are controlling qi with your mind...

 

There is substance what can take any shape. If you get pass 3rd skandha its available.

pass 2nd skandha your substance can travel.

dude

 

chapter 19. Mental Dao Yin training. 

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Chinese-Energetic-Medicine/dp/0991569016/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0991569016&pd_rd_r=6YV78K5B0X8Z90CFGXWT&pd_rd_w=NKTlc&pd_rd_wg=iBaLB&psc=1&refRID=6YV78K5B0X8Z90CFGXWT

 

I am no special, nothing like that. I just follow the system which I know has value and merit and it is working. I also have plenty of people in my class who study with the teacher who can do the same stuff... It is actually a pre-req to BE a medical qigong doctor, to move qi with your mind ( otherwise, how will you heal people?) ...You are focusing on wrong things.

 

/***************/

The point for this topic is without fallbacks to lineages find if there are similarities. Now, if you look at "pain" via spiritual lenses you will find anything between left hand tantra and christian martyrs. Obviously, this is not something very "sellable" to a general public which hangs out in yoga studios and drinks green juices... 

 

Chasing siddhis does not make sense to me. For example, why waste time and energy on creating/controlling fire in a candle when you have matches, gas stoves and lighters? If you are to happen to be alone in a mountain, you can also use other means to create fire for your survival. Etc. etc. etc.... However, pain is a universal qualifier seems to be in all these practices... so why not to compare experiences without going into a brawl? 

[Geof Nanto]

 

On a slightly tangential theme, here’s a song of the po soul - the dark feminine soul - that our culture represses. It’s feared. We’re taught that such natural longings are pathological, rather than an innate aspect of our inner yin-yang psyche.

 

Goodbye California  

I'm pre-meditating crime of a personal kind
I'm about to go out of my mind
I'm just about sick to death of taking breath
And walking this line of mine
Now, folks that know what's good for them
Are good at ignoring them
But I just can't put these thoughts down
I'm harrowed and abused and broken and pursued
By this notion that follows me around
My heart is hurting, my spirit’s burdened
I feel like a liar and a thief
For taking air, for being here
Unwanted, I look for my final release
Goodbye, goodbye, California
Goodbye and I’ll be moving on
I sang you my songs, I know I'm wrong
Fare thee well and I’ll be moving on
When I'm dead and gone
My immortal home will hold me in its bosom
Safe and cold, no more desires
Will light their fires or disturb my immaculate calm
And the birds of the air and the beasts of the soil
And the fishes of the desperate seas
Will know who I am and our substance will expand
As part of everything
As part of everything, my God
As part of everything and the clouds will roll
And the wind will blow and the beautiful birds will sing
Goodbye, goodbye, California
Goodbye to your waving trees
To you succulent wind and all my friends
Fare thee well, goodbye, so be it
Amen
Amen

(Lyrics written by Jolie Holland.) 
 

[thelerner]

There is a painful situation in the mid stages of quieting the mind.   When, since it's quieter, remaining thoughts hammer hard.  In normal consciousness chatter is so loud singular thoughts are muted.  Once we begin to get quiet, thoughts hammer.  It feels a little bit like craziness, like possession. 

 

Its probably a stage we have to go through.. sometimes repeatedly.  Higher level people may be hit by it too.  Perhaps harder, which is why you see masters doing some really stupid things at times. 

 

Controlling our dreams is very hard for most people.  Similarly controlling our thoughts is no piece of cake.  So much news and 'entertainment' is violent.. it creeps into our consciousness.  Rape, murder, theft.. may well be part of a 200,000 year genetic/survival dark instinct.. maybe.  When things get quiet, those thoughts are the real boogie man.  Which must be faced. 

 

 

Then there's the whole dark night of the soul where we have to face up to the pointlessness of life; its futility, our losses, pain and inevitable death.  That's never fun. 

 

 

[liminal_luke]

5 hours ago, Earl Grey said:

 

How it has manifested energetically outside of just ego challenges has also led to seeing bizarre things when I look in the mirror for one of our mirror meditations, and I no longer look at my face, but see my face, which is not the insecurities and judgments for what it should be, but rather, what is. It's scary. It's beautiful. It's haunting. It's familiar. It's vulnerable. It's hurting. It's fragile. It's durable. It's steadfast. It's...me. 

 

This is powerful.  Both the experience, and your way of expressing the experience.  Thank you.

[phil]

I did not go through such immense pain (..yet?) (*knocking on wood*) but from time to time energy cultivation does bring some stuff to the surface. Like self-esteem issues or other things.. negative believes about myself and when chi hits those believes they come to consciousness exponentiated so I really got to deal with it. Because if I don't, chi won't move   

But what helps me till this day is a dream I had a few years ago, during a time where I had feelings of going crazy, because of too much generated energy to deal with.. 

In this dream - it was the most realistic dream I've ever had, in fact it was more real than normal reality, after waking up I really had the impression as if rather my waking state was the dream-world - I was a beggar in an ancient city, sitting at the corner of a street and waiting for the people to give me food or money. I was sick and hungry, life was a piece of shit. I really just sat there feeling intense self-pity.. Then, out of nowhere, colours get far more intense and an older person comes towards me, wearing a white robe cape like gandalf and I can feel this is the wisest person I ever met. This person looks at me saying: "You have to learn equanimity (I hope it is the right translation). In german the word was "Gleichmut". Then I felt an immense love and woke up. The crazy thing is when  woke up I didn't even know what "Gleichmut" meant. I didn't know the word. So I googled it and found out that it's a buddhist principle (I really wasn't into buddhism at that time). 

And till this day this dream helps me a lot. Whenever times get tough I say to myself "phil, you just have to learn a little bit more equanimity" and I know, there are forces watching me, and whatever happens, my real inner being is safe, no matter how tough the circumstances appear. And no matter what problem one has to face, you would't face those problems if you could't solve them. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by phil48

[allinone]

42 minutes ago, qicat said:

dude

 

chapter 19. Mental Dao Yin training. 

https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Teachings-Chinese-Energetic-Medicine/dp/0991569016/ref=pd_sim_14_3?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0991569016&pd_rd_r=6YV78K5B0X8Z90CFGXWT&pd_rd_w=NKTlc&pd_rd_wg=iBaLB&psc=1&refRID=6YV78K5B0X8Z90CFGXWT

 

I am no special, nothing like that. I just follow the system which I know has value and merit and it is working. I also have plenty of people in my class who study with the teacher who can do the same stuff... It is actually a pre-req to BE a medical qigong doctor, to move qi with your mind ( otherwise, how will you heal people?) ...You are focusing on wrong things.

 

/***************/

The point for this topic is without fallbacks to lineages find if there are similarities. Now, if you look at "pain" via spiritual lenses you will find anything between left hand tantra and christian martyrs. Obviously, this is not something very "sellable" to a general public which hangs out in yoga studios and drinks green juices... 

 

Chasing siddhis does not make sense to me. For example, why waste time and energy on creating/controlling fire in a candle when you have matches, gas stoves and lighters? If you are to happen to be alone in a mountain, you can also use other means to create fire for your survival. Etc. etc. etc.... However, pain is a universal qualifier seems to be in all these practices... so why not to compare experiences without going into a brawl? 

 

Guys i tired to ask questions. I think i go full rage mode.

[qicat]

18 hours ago, allinone said:

 

Guys i tired to ask questions. I think i go full rage mode.

 

huh?

 

rage is liver... check on your stress levels...

[allinone]

If my gall can't dissolve the poison so i then will wait next process and suck the dirty blood out from where it will appear.

 

want talk about some tender colorful medicine ways?