Also my personal experiences aren't all puppies and rainbows, most of them are very dark, and that doesn't sell well. People want to be reassured that everything is going to be ok, and there is no way to say otherwise without becoming the bad guy

[silent thunder]

I deeply appreciate the sentiment shared in this thread.

 

My practice is not about feeling good, though at first it was all about that.

 

Although a bi-product of the process is one of saturating calm and an abiding compassion and peace... this comes seemingly only through and after systemic realizations of harsh, assumption blasting, belief disintegrating, painful realizations of my own self and socially created and maintained illusions.

 

My process is about relentlessly and radically releasing assumptions and projections.

 

Simple breathing, body awareness and presence in awareness.  Not projecting, thinking, doing or seeking.

 

More and more, it is about cultivating emptiness where my mental projections and beliefs are dismantled in calm simplicity and cannot take hold to become firm beliefs.  Though this is after some years of intense pain and harsh, humbling realizations.

 

I'm reminded of this quote:

 

“Enlightenment is a destructive process. It
has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the
crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing
through the facade of pretence. It's the
complete eradication of everything we
imagined to be true.”
 Adyashanti

 

[doc benway]

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

I deeply appreciate the sentiment shared in this thread.

 

My practice is not about feeling good, though at first it was all about that.

 

Although a bi-product of the process is one of saturating calm and an abiding compassion and peace... this comes seemingly only through and after systemic realizations of harsh, assumption blasting, belief disintegrating, painful realizations of my own self and socially created and maintained illusions.

 

My process is about relentlessly and radically releasing assumptions and projections.

 

Simple breathing, body awareness and presence in awareness.  Not projecting, thinking, doing or seeking.

 

More and more, it is about cultivating emptiness where my mental projections and beliefs are dismantled in calm simplicity and cannot take hold to become firm beliefs.  Though this is after some years of intense pain and harsh, humbling realizations.

 

Well said

 

 

4 hours ago, silent thunder said:

 

I'm reminded of this quote:

 

“Enlightenment is a destructive process. It
has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the
crumbling away of untruth. It's seeing
through the facade of pretence. It's the
complete eradication of everything we
imagined to be true.”
 Adyashanti

 

 

I like the Adyanshanti quote except for the second line.

No question for me that my practices are connected to being better and happier.

That's certainly not the ultimate goal but as I can let go of the ignorance, the identities, more frequently and more completely, no question I am better and happier for it. 

 

[idquest]

[qicat]

yep

[Jeff]

21 hours ago, steve said:

...

No question for me that my practices are connected to being better and happier.

That's certainly not the ultimate goal but as I can let go of the ignorance, the identities, more frequently and more completely, no question I am better and happier for it. 

 

 

Steve raises an excellent point. Practices lead to underlying clarity, allowing the natural purity to shine through. Like surfing the perfect wave, everything becomes increasingly smooth as silk, and you can't help but smile...

[qicat]

what about spiritual bypassing to feel "peaches and cream" all the time yet making zero real progress? 

 

in my research so far, first three years of "cupcakes and unicorns" seems to be a norm, but after that it seems ( different research sources), there is a big huge fat surprise... ( like go and deal with your sh&t ( from all lifetimes) without too much of pixie cupcakes...)

 

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, qicat said:

what about spiritual bypassing to feel "peaches and cream" all the time yet making zero real progress? 

 

in my research so far, first three years of "cupcakes and unicorns" seems to be a norm, but after that it seems ( different research sources), there is a big huge fat surprise... ( like go and deal with your sh&t ( from all lifetimes) without too much of pixie cupcakes...)

 

 

Spirital bypassing can definitely be a real thing, and actually very common. But, that is sort of the opposite of practices that focus on increasing overall clarity (and cleaning out the crap). Just as there is a huge difference between suppressing some tendency/desire and actually letting it go.

[Brian]

I would echo with what steve & Jeff said above.

 

I think, perhaps, there are more than one way in which awakening occurs.  You might awaken to the glow of sunlight lightening the room through a lace-curtained window and the sound of birds singing in the trees.  Or you might awaken to alarm clocks or smoke alarms or gunshots or a tree crashing through the roof.

 

Pretending the smoke alarm isn't blaring isn't going to put out the fire.

 

On the other hand, there's nothing wrong with waking to the sound of songbirds.

 

qicat, I encourage you to discuss this series of dreams with your teacher within the context of your current practice before you do any further exploring.  Dreamtime is not unreal.

[dwai]

58 minutes ago, Brian said:

I think, perhaps, there are more than one way in which awakening occurs.  You might awaken to the glow of sunlight lightening the room through a lace-curtained window and the sound of birds singing in the trees.  Or you might awaken to alarm clocks or smoke alarms or gunshots or a tree crashing through the roof.

Love the poetically constructed, beautifully evocative sentences...you sir are a  poet

 

[Brian]

5 minutes ago, dwai said:

Love the poetically constructed, beautifully evocative sentences...you sir are a  poet

 

I'm a poet

and don't know it!

'Though my feet show it...

They're long fellows.

[allinone]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Spirital bypassing can definitely be a real thing, and actually very common. But, that is sort of the opposite of practices that focus on increasing overall clarity (and cleaning out the crap). Just as there is a huge difference between suppressing some tendency/desire and actually letting it go.

 

What you said: letting go of the desires increases clarity.

 

What type of desires these are what you letting go?

How you let go of them?

---

disclaimer, i have more questions if you don't get what i want to point you out. OK, you convinced me to it, ..just wanted to tell you that one mistake and you are spiritual bypassing. You are using very simplistic approach what excludes autonomous responses and happenings what you are not aware of. So other words your lack of noticing suffering even in most hedonistic happening is a spiritual bypassing.

Edited August 7, 2017 by allinone

[voidisyinyang]

Quote

They postulate that since we don't eat a 'primate diet' any more, which would consist primarily of fresh fruits, we don't get the 'steroid inhibitors' we need from fruit. As a result our body gets an overdose of steroid hormones, which - over generations - would cause gradual damage to the left side of the brain. This, and other negative symptoms occurring as a result of less-than-optimal diet, the writers see as a fundamental reason for the devolution of the human and the cause of many of our problems today. Basically Graham Gynn's and Tony Wright's conclusion in the book is that we are all brain damaged.

http://www.cheap-health-revolution.com/tony-wright-graham-gynn-left-in-the-dark.html

Quote

For one, this would mean that men's brains are more damaged than women's, just because they have more testosterone - which I like to believe to be a natural hormonal difference between the sexes.

Quote

 

"The diet of our forest ancestors was a rich mixture of leaves and fruit. Each element of this diet contained thousands of unique chemicals. Whole groups of these chemicals are known to affect neural biochemistry and some in similar ways to anti-depressant drugs. Both elevate the activity of neurotransmitters. For perhaps millions of years a diet of several kilos of plant material, loaded with thousands of chemicals, [was] eaten every day." (p. 162)

"We have come to the surprising conclusion that our normal state of body/ mind is not operating as well as it could and that a more functional state is hidden behind it. A critical look at areas such as human fertility, immunity and even baldness reveals evidence for a breakdown within these systems that appears to have been caused by an imbalance in steroids.

"The most significant hormones in the story are testosterone and oestrogen. Either higher levels of these steroid hormones or, more accurately, an increase in their activity has precipitated a train of events that has upset optimal human performance. This has had profound repercussions on both our physical being and our consciousness, indeed down to the very way we think. The key steroid inhibitors - the heroes of our story - are melatonin, betacarbolines and the vast number of chemicals, such as bioflavonoids, found in fruit. We are suffering today from a chronic shortage of these crucial chemicals, and, because of this lack, our pineal glands are not as active as they should be." (p. 170)

 

So fruit has inherent psychoactive properties.

 

Fruit activates the vagus nerve because of the fructose.

 

https://www.happygaia.com/site/assets/files/0/01/194/left_in_the_dark_free_edition.pdf

 

pdf of the book "Left in the Dark" source of above quotes.

 

Left in the Dark: The Biological Origins of the Fall From Grace, co-authored with Graham Gynn.

[rene]

13 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Spirital bypassing can definitely be a real thing, and actually very common. But, that is sort of the opposite of practices that focus on increasing overall clarity (and cleaning out the crap). Just as there is a huge difference between suppressing some tendency/desire and actually letting it go.

 

5 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

What you said: letting go of the desires increases clarity.

 

What type of desires these are what you letting go?

How you let go of them?

 

Hi allinone, looking forward to Jeff's reply as well. (-:

 

Letting go of desires is an interesting concept; my method is rather than letting go, or suppressing, them - their fulfilment is unimportant. For example: I desire to someday travel to Norway! If it happens, wonderful! If it doesn't that's okay too cause I'm happy where ever I am!

 

Desires are natural, imo; it's how we interact with them regardless of if they are fulfilled, or not.

 

warm regards

[Jeff]

13 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

What you said: letting go of the desires increases clarity.

 

What type of desires these are what you letting go?

How you let go of them?

---

disclaimer, i have more questions if you don't get what i want to point you out. OK, you convinced me to it, ..just wanted to tell you that one mistake and you are spiritual bypassing. You are using very simplistic approach what excludes autonomous responses and happenings what you are not aware of. So other words your lack of noticing suffering even in most hedonistic happening is a spiritual bypassing.

 

All desires are ultimately let go of, but the ones you hang onto affect your (residing) state. If one lets go of all desires, there is only cessation. This is why Buddha taught the bodhisattva path.

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, WuDao said:

 

 

Hi allinone, looking forward to Jeff's reply as well. (-:

 

Letting go of desires is an interesting concept; my method is rather than letting go, or suppressing, them - their fulfilment is unimportant. For example: I desire to someday travel to Norway! If it happens, wonderful! If it doesn't that's okay too cause I'm happy where ever I am!

 

Desires are natural, imo; it's how we interact with them regardless of if they are fulfilled, or not.

 

warm regards

 

I would agree that desires are the natural "inclination" of the local body-mind. One tends to form attachments with all energy. There are many ways to learn to let stuff go, but I believe that the easiest and most consistent way is to first realize/notice the underlying energy of all such emotional attachments. As the Tao Te Ching states...

 

CHAPTER 6  

The root of Heaven and Earth, can be found in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries.  

The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten thousand things. It is ever present and eternal.  

 

Also, here...

 

CHAPTER 20  

Give up learning, put an end to your troubles.  

Remain and dwell in simplicity.  

I am contented, for I dwell in the infinite;  the Dao is full when it is present in the heart.  

Others enjoy the feast, but I am alone and wandering, drifting with the wind.

Open and yielding like a new born babe.  Innocent and simple, for I am nourished by the Great Mother of all thing,,  

Others have more than what they need, but I alone have nothing.

I seem foolish and confused, but I alone am aware and alert.

Other Men seem sharp and clever, For my simplicity and innocence appears dull and stupid to such Men.  

I drift like the waves of the sea and follow the flow.  

Everyone seems busy, but I alone am without desire and uncluttered. I am different, for I am nourished by the great Dao.  

 

The "mother of 10,000 things" the path that never fails.  

[allinone]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

All desires are ultimately let go of, but the ones you hang onto affect your (residing) state. If one lets go of all desires, there is only cessation. This is why Buddha taught the bodhisattva path.

 

Body itself is a desire body, it is designed to be needy, with bottomless requirements. You won't get rid of them.

---

There is a way, as noticing relevant sensations and eventually it will start autonomous system, where you are not a participant there.

That is you will come to know what to do, and one of the things is that you know that you need quit doing sensual pleasure and there you reach to another point in a sequence.

 

it depends on you how much you notice the relevant things and can do discipline to get the wheel started.

 

what pisses me off is the emphasis is put so little on technical and mechanical parts as concrete signs, what doesn't care about how loud you squeal or laugh from happiness.

[rene]

16 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

I would agree that desires are the natural "inclination" of the local body-mind. One tends to form attachments with all energy. There are many ways to learn to let stuff go, but I believe that the easiest and most consistent way is to first realize/notice the underlying energy of all such emotional attachments. As the Tao Te Ching states...

 

CHAPTER 6  

The root of Heaven and Earth, can be found in its spirit.

Search and feel this spirit, for it is ever present; the gateway to all mysteries.  

The spirit is the primordial mother of the ten thousand things. It is ever present and eternal.  

 

Also, here...

 

CHAPTER 20  

Give up learning, put an end to your troubles.  

Remain and dwell in simplicity.  

I am contented, for I dwell in the infinite;  the Dao is full when it is present in the heart.  

Others enjoy the feast, but I am alone and wandering, drifting with the wind.

Open and yielding like a new born babe.  Innocent and simple, for I am nourished by the Great Mother of all thing,,  

Others have more than what they need, but I alone have nothing.

I seem foolish and confused, but I alone am aware and alert.

Other Men seem sharp and clever, For my simplicity and innocence appears dull and stupid to such Men.  

I drift like the waves of the sea and follow the flow.  

Everyone seems busy, but I alone am without desire and uncluttered. I am different, for I am nourished by the great Dao.  

 

The "mother of 10,000 things" the path that never fails.  

 

Anybody that quotes Laozi is fine in my book!

 

My path is different than most; standing in 'Both, same time' enables me to reside in the pleasures (and perils) AND not be encumbered with the outcomes (of either). More simply put - I want what I want, but it doesn't matter if I get it! I enjoy dreaming of Norway AND it does me no harm should it never occur!

 

If an unfulfilled dream (desire) caused me harm or other angst - then any  method to try and 'let go' would be useful indeed!

 

I like that we each have our own way, and I wish you well on your path. (-:

 

[allinone]

i saw a sensation what is hot in appearance and it was calling me, and i followed it. I saw it and i then stopped following it. I have had followed taht sensation so many years.

 

So desires aren't just things what we can't get. Most of the hot pleasant, awesome sensations aer fulfilled regularly.

[allinone]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I would agree that desires are the natural "inclination" of the local body-mind. One tends to form attachments with all energy. There are many ways to learn to let stuff go, but I believe that the easiest and most consistent way is to first realize/notice the underlying energy of all such emotional attachments. As the Tao Te Ching states...

 

So have you gotten past bedtime stories or they still are mindblowing?

[Jeff]

49 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

Body itself is a desire body, it is designed to be needy, with bottomless requirements. You won't get rid of them.

---

There is a way, as noticing relevant sensations and eventually it will start autonomous system, where you are not a participant there.

That is you will come to know what to do, and one of the things is that you know that you need quit doing sensual pleasure and there you reach to another point in a sequence.

 

it depends on you how much you notice the relevant things and can do discipline to get the wheel started.

 

what pisses me off is the emphasis is put so little on technical and mechanical parts as concrete signs, what doesn't care about how loud you squeal or laugh from happiness.

 

Things like being pissed off are an excellent sign of being caught up in emotional and local body mind stuff.

[doc benway]

Spiritual bypassing can be good and bad depending on the person and situation.

 

If my life is a miserable mess and I'm endlessly buffeted and controlled by thoughts the first step is to get to a place where I can see that there is a different way to be. At this level, spiritual practice is no more (or less) than a balm, like a hug from a loved one, but it is necessary to get us to the point where we feel that we have something we can rely on to support us when things get bad, a refuge.

 

When we develop enough personal strength and confidence, that is the appropriate time to begin to let go of spirituality as a tool for self soothing. Then we can use that refuge to support us as we dig into the deeper baggage that can be really painful and even harmful. There's a reason why we suppress and repress things - we are not strong enough to deal with them. The advice here is not to force someone to face these things when they don't have the tools or confidence to face them, it is to help them to develop those tools and build that confidence. Then they have something to work with. 

 

So I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss spiritual bypassing. It is an important part of the process that eventually, for most of us, can be let go. Some people may never be able to reach that point and it's OK. Having a spiritual guide is extremely helpful to determine who is ready to go deeper and when. If we do it on our own, it can sometimes be problematic.

 

Certainly there are those who are ready to work with the difficult stuff and are either afraid, unmotivated, lazy, whatever... and for them spiritual bypassing is an obstacle, in and of itself, to growth. I wouldn't be too quick to condemn it across the board.

 

I recently heard Thich Nhat Hanh talk about psychotherapy in a way that made me really take notice. When we go to therapy, the first question tends to be: what's wrong or what's bothering you? What would it be like to spend the first few sessions looking into what's right?! What's good in your life? How often do you take amount and allow yourself to feel gratitude. If we were to emphasize what is working and supportive for a few weeks or months, it seems like we would start in a much better place to begin looking at what is wrong and what we can change. At least then we have some idea of what tools and supports we have to stand on when we are facing and trying to change the bad stuff.

[Jeff]

47 minutes ago, WuDao said:

 

Anybody that quotes Laozi is fine in my book!

 

My path is different than most; standing in 'Both, same time' enables me to reside in the pleasures (and perils) AND not be encumbered with the outcomes (of either). More simply put - I want what I want, but it doesn't matter if I get it! I enjoy dreaming of Norway AND it does me no harm should it never occur!

 

If an unfulfilled dream (desire) caused me harm or other angst - then any  method to try and 'let go' would be useful indeed!

 

I like that we each have our own way, and I wish you well on your path. (-:

 

 

It is definitely a balance and I get what you mean by standing in both.  The key is sort of seeing through the "emotional" aspects of it, and realizing the underlying energy structure.  A perfect example is with anger...

 

You can get caught up with it and have all types of autopilot subconscious responses...

Or, see it rising, but not be able to help yourself...

Or, catch yourself in the middle of it and think what am I doing...

Or, catch it as it is happening and then reflect on what is the best action...

Or, kind of laugh at yourself, and then just do what needs to be done...

Or, ultimately... Just do what needs to be done...

 

[allinone]

24 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

Things like being pissed off are an excellent sign of being caught up in emotional and local body mind stuff.

 

Sorry its the sensation in my body. I just interpret it. You write so well to bring it out. So therefore be careful lots of fiends could attack you.

---

and seeing how i destroy you, i start feel pleasure and no more bad feeling. Don't know why..

Edited August 7, 2017 by allinone

[Jeff]

10 minutes ago, allinone said:

 

Sorry its the sensation in my body. I just interpret it. You write so well to bring it out. So therefore be careful lots of fiends could attack you.

 

No worries, and yes many can feel my underlying energy.  But, many can feel it at the energy level and not get caught up in the subconscious autopilot emotional response.

[allinone]

11 minutes ago, Jeff said:

 

No worries, and yes many can feel my underlying energy.  But, many can feel it at the energy level and not get caught up in the subconscious autopilot emotional response.

 

You don't dare to say names, therefore i have no idea what you say or to whom..unless i willingly assume you speak about me when you mention those autopilot response guys.

There is few lines long defeat for you. You just don't know Others. These others are your autopilot response. Otherwords you are just a mere disciple when it comes to knowing dharma.

---

edit sry the disciple thing is a exaggeration.

Edited August 7, 2017 by allinone