.

[LAOLONG]

 

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Edited July 17, 2017 by SHINTO

[Nungali]

Indeed it was ....  read according to their traditions .

 

Where else in their traditions does it mention this 'Chinese desert'  ? 

 

and where is there any other case of the Hebrews ( at the time of ' mosses' ) being aware of China . 

 

... or that  ' sini ' was ever a Hebrew word   or means 'China' 

 

By the way Shinto ... what is your 'first language '  ?  ( a reasonable question when dealing with 'linguistics'  . ) 

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Oh No.  Judaism is a child of Zoroastrianism.

 

 

[LAOLONG]

.

Edited July 17, 2017 by SHINTO

[LAOLONG]

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Edited July 17, 2017 by SHINTO

[Marblehead]

6 minutes ago, SHINTO said:

Second temple Judaism is heavily influenced by Zoroastrianism idea.
The duality ,haven and hell (don't appear in the Torah ) good god
And bad god ( satan),and more...

The original Zoroastrianism was non-dualistic.  Only a god.  Only a heaven.  Later on people added hell and the devil.

 

[LAOLONG]

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Edited July 17, 2017 by SHINTO

[Marblehead]

That's about as far as I can go with you on that.  My study was very brief and a long time ago.

[Wu Ming Jen]

Modern religion may borrow from many ancient traditions to be accepted or in vogue but the hindu system that has two worlds, higher and lower and all that stuff is more likely to be the influence of judaism.

 

Chinese traditions are absent from putting mind over reality,having any personified god or  anything substantial as being the creative force. It is quite the opposite to have a non substantial force be the ultimate creative force and the ultimate reality at the same time. very unique on the world stage of philosophy and religion.

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, SHINTO said:

In genesis ch 10 , 17 there is a nation chinese ואת הסיני  and the sini. Writen the same as sinai.

Today my first language is

Hebrew.

 

Nice try , but they were Canaanites , linguistics dont wholly go on 'it sounds like to me '  . 

 

Brown-Driver-Briggs

סִינִי adjective, of a people only with article = substantive Genesis 10:17 = 1 Chronicles 1:15 a Canaanite people, in north, ᵐ5 τὸνἈσενναῖον; compare city Siânu, 'on shore of sea,' in Assyrian inscription Dl^{Pa 282}, Σιννᾶν (accusative) in possession of those holding Lebanon Strabo^{xvi. 2. 8} (see Di^Gn). 

 

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

Sinite

From an otherwise unknown name of a man; a Sinite, or descendant of one of the sons of Canaan -- Sinite.

Forms and Transliterations

הַסִּינִֽי׃ הסיני׃ has·sî·nî hassiNi hassînî

 

NAS Exhaustive Concordance

Word Origin
of uncertain derivation
Definition
a Canaanite people
NASB Translation
Sinite (1), Sinites (1).

 

 

Strong's Concordance

Sini: a Canaanite people

Original Word: סִינִי
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: Sini
Phonetic Spelling: (see-nee')
Short Definition: Sinite

 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Oh No.  Judaism is a child of Zoroastrianism.

 

 

 

And thank you Marbles ! 

 

... ad Zoroastrianism was a child of the old 'Aryan collective' of 'nations'  -    Most we know of them is from non historical sources ( Vendidad, Shahnama , Avestas , etc . ) Then there is what is known as 'The Gap in the Record ' ; The first mention of "Persians' in history (early Babylonian  tablets ) .... previously unknown 'Parsa' emerge from the wilds of the Zagros Mts, down into the Lower  Tigris / Euphrates river , join up with Medes and other local tribes rising to power (as  Babylon's power fades ) and fills the vacuum, creating the first Persian Empires .

 

BUT according to the non historical source, there were  Empiire and rulers before that ; The Pishdadian Empire . 

 

Who were they ?  We dont know   ... but they are ultimately the source of western esotericism ..... (including the Greeks )

 

Their old  lands  (including modern Iran but not Iraq) extended from 'Turkey' to ' Afghanistan' , the Upper Indus and into  .....  "The Silk Route " . 

 

One of the biggest mistake people have made about the 'Aryans ' has been due to racial  and even ethnic projections . It was a collective , not a  system of 'one type of people' 

 

So, winding back we can see that  Judaism WAS influenced by China    ( but not due to a  Canaanite tribe being confused with 'Sino -  Asia ' )  ...

 

 check this out

 

 

Painting of Husheng in the Shahnama of Shah Tahmasp.

 

'Caucasian'    'Chinese' mummies anyone ? 

 

[Nungali]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The original Zoroastrianism was non-dualistic.  Only a god.  Only a heaven.  Later on people added hell and the devil.

 

 

We could have a looong conversation about that .       Source for the bolded bit  ? 

[Taomeow]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

The original Zoroastrianism was non-dualistic.  Only a god.  Only a heaven.  Later on people added hell and the devil.

 

 

The original Zoroastrianism, if memory serves, had twin gods, one of matter, one of spirit.  The noteworthy difference of this arrangement from later Indo-European ideas being that the "good" god was the god of matter, and the god of spirit was "evil."  So it was not non-dualistic, rather it was non-patriarchal.  (All patriarchal religions favor spirit over matter.  Matter=mater=mother=mother Earth is what they consider a "fall" from the spiritual heights of the immaterial pattern=pater=father=someone/something good somewhere else, not right here in the material world with children.  Punishment for the children's sins, obviously.  For being of matter, mother.  To this day, you can see no image of a good mother coming out of Hollywood.  If she's good, she's dead, fondly remembered but absent.  If she's present, she's never good.  Never a role model.  Never someone to be close to and benefit from it.  Mostly either bitchy or insane or neglectful or needy or sick or addicted to various substances or promiscuous or inept or...  but I digress.)  

 

Another noteworthy difference -- for both Zoroastrian gods it was a choice.  God is not bereft of free will and isn't good or not-good "by default."  God is not a machine running a "good" program, the way it does in Indo-European religions.  He can choose good over evil, or evil over good.  One of the Zoroastrian twins chose an evil pattern...

 

 

 

[Nungali]

3 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Modern religion may borrow from many ancient traditions to be accepted or in vogue but the hindu system that has two worlds, higher and lower and all that stuff is more likely to be the influence of judaism.

 

See my post above .

 

Hinduism and Zoroastrianism ( and its influence in creating Judaism ) come from the same source , it was the same religion before the big split where 'Zoroastrianism' was invented and split off, taking many  doctrines with it. 

 

 

3 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 

Chinese traditions are absent from putting mind over reality,having any personified god or  anything substantial as being the creative force. It is quite the opposite to have a non substantial force be the ultimate creative force and the ultimate reality at the same time. very unique on the world stage of philosophy and religion.

 

Are they ? 

 

What are the earliest forms  of Chinese religion we know about ? 

[Nungali]

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The original Zoroastrianism, if memory serves, had twin gods, one of matter, one of spirit. 

 

Not really matter and spirit, as such, but yes , the original tenets of Zoroastrianism was based on a dualism and a 'split' from the 'collective practices and ritual' from the early Aryan Empires.

 

The 'monotheism' that later arose in it was actually Zurvanism , a form of Zoroastrianism that threw up things like The Magi .

 

Ziuvanism died out and newer forms replaced it .

 

 

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

The noteworthy difference of this arrangement from later Indo-European ideas being that the "good" god was the god of matter, and the god of spirit was "evil."  So it was not non-dualistic, rather it was non-patriarchal. 

 

YES!  Thankyou!  Not many people realise this .   The Arab invasion soon ended that .. and they burned the records !   Traditional Persian people are very proud of the past heroines and the women that made them great in  government, 'fair rulership' , arts and sciences and warfare .  Check this out ; 

 

http://www.persepolis.nu/

 

 

16 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

(All patriarchal religions favor spirit over matter.  Matter=mater=mother=mother Earth is what they consider a "fall" from the spiritual heights of the immaterial pattern=pater=father=someone/something good somewhere else, not right here in the material world with children.  Punishment for the children's sins, obviously.  For being of matter, mother.  To this day, you can see no image of a good mother coming out of Hollywood.  If she's good, she's dead, fondly remembered but absent.  If she's present, she's never good.  Never a role model.  Never someone to be close to and benefit from it.  Mostly either bitchy or insane or neglectful or needy or sick or addicted to various substances or promiscuous or inept or...  but I digress.)  

 

Another noteworthy difference -- for both Zoroastrian gods it was a choice.  God is not bereft of free will and isn't good or not-good "by default."  God is not a machine running a "good" program, the way it does in Indo-European religions.  He can choose good over evil, or evil over good.  One of the Zoroastrian twins chose an evil pattern...

 

 

 

 

In the story it is all tied in with Ahriman ... who represents bot a propensity for the human mind to become healthy or sick ( good or bad ) , hence the real and ( really only ) origin of  good or bad  .....    and  an original fallout with the people that would eventually become 'Vedic' . 

 

The Zoroastrian 'evil Gods' were the   'Devati'  ... Deva worshippers   ( Indo-European'  root- 'div'   ; evil, , bad, foul, wrong  ... eventually to English 'devil', 'deviate ', etc . )   their enemies gods became devils .

 

The 'Devati'  , who became 'Vedic' , made the  'Iranian' Gods  their devils  (of course ! )  - Asuras. 

 

In the early Vedas Asuras are 'elder Gods' .... then they are vanquished and eventually demonised in later Veda 

 

 

 

all due to 'that incident with the milk '  

 

[Nungali]

and I might add here ..... on the ground ...  these 'guys' are  really the only ones that gave IS  what they deserve  ( not Persians but Kurds .... a proud people , but also 'Arab conquested '   . 

 

When they join up ... its for life !  As soon as the IS cowards see them ... they run ! 

 

 

 

 

 

ISIS fighters flee Kurdish troops in Iraq - BECAUSE THEY'RE FEMALE!  

 

( a woman fights and injures you .. NO paradise, no virgins ... nothing !   Just shame ... so they run )

 

Commander  Nesrin Abdullah

 

I saw her interviewed in the field  .. she seemed nice, soft and kind  she said that her and ' her girls ' would protect women and children  from rapist  IS . If they come into her area .. she has 'something for them' .

 

Then she sorta changed and  didnt look so soft anymore  and she pulled out the biggest hand fired rocket launcher I ever seen  ....    with one hand   

 

Some of 'her girls ' .....   ' we join   and fight forever ...  until we die  ! ' 

 

 

[Marblehead]

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

We could have a looong conversation about that .       Source for the bolded bit  ? 

http://www.zarathushtra.com/

[Nungali]

 

 Thanks , I think I visited there some time back .  They seem to acknowledge  'evil' begins in the mind of man . I liked the bit about about  - do good, not for reward, but for the sake of it alone .

 

The devil, 'strangely enough'  seems to get added after conflict with other people or 'splits'  in a group of people .  \

 

and 'personal devils'  ('demon possession'  or MPD ) seem to come from splits in the psyche . 

 

Hmmmmmm ...... 

 

 "  All is one    .....   Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,,,,,       "