Holy Grail

[Apech]

I am reading this book at the moment:

 

The Holy Grail : The History of a Legend

 

it's not New Agey or whacky in any way and is a sensible account of the Medieval Romance and how it began and developed.

 

But some interesting things from a spiritual interpretive perspective.

 

The hero (Perceval usually) goes to the court of the Fisher King who is wounded or ill.  He sees or is shown a ) a sword which broken and has to be mended  b  )  the lance which drips blood from its tip continuously and c ) the grail.

 

But because he doesn't ask the question 'whom does the grail serve' - the Fisher King is not healed.  Interestingly the land is sick (a wasteland) because the king is sick.

 

Question: why would asking that question heal the king????

 

It is suggested the grail serves his father who was killed by a wicked brother (hints of Osiris myth) ... and the Fisher Kings are of a lineage starting with Joseph of Aramithea's brother in law and established when Joseph of A. brought the Grail from the Levant as it was the cup of the last supper and which held the blood of the crucified christ when J of A buried him.  the lance of course is the spear used to pierce Jesus' side when he was on the cross.

 

Anyway - anyone got an answer - why would aksing that question heal the wounded king????

[Brian]

Have you seen the Terry Gilliam film with Robin Williams?  I highly recommend it.

 

There seems some lack of clarity in the various stories as to who didn't ask whom about what but my take has been the point was precisely about clarity -- that the mission became guarding a piece of pottery as a clandestine museum artifact rather than cherishing and sharing the power of its message.  Asking "the question" would have thrown the situation into stark contrast in a clarifying and enlightening moment of revelation.

[Apech]

@A&P

 

It seems to be the fault is not asking the question - rather than in Boorman's film answering the question.  In the romance tales the hero knight is kind of struck dumb or inhibited from asking - while the king and the court wait with anticipation for him to do so - as if he does not the king remains sick and so to the land.

 

 

[Apech]

Some features of the Holy Grail:

 

1 )  is variously a cup/chalice, a bowl or platter, a stone (!) - has five forms of which four are hidden and fifth is the cup.

2  ) is a cornucopia which provides feasts

3  ) heals the sick

4 ) emits intense light

5 ) produces dumbness, stupor or sleep in those 'not pure'

 

Reminds me strongly of the philosophers stone.

[Nungali]

On 7/3/2017 at 3:54 AM, Apech said:

@A&P

 

It seems to be the fault is not asking the question - rather than in Boorman's film answering the question.  In the romance tales the hero knight is kind of struck dumb or inhibited from asking - while the king and the court wait with anticipation for him to do so - as if he does not the king remains sick and so to the land.

 

 

 

Yeah,  your question ( and the  question ) stumped me a bit .   But the above is interesting .   I read somewhere that a 'man'  or a knight or a leader or something needs to be able to make a quick decision, a  firm direction and just declare it . Even if it is wrong it is better than wallowing around stagnant and going  " errmmmmm   ... errrr   .... ummmmm ...."

 

So maybe the original problem is generated from  the 'hero' not being complete  ? 

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Nungali said:

 

Yeah,  your question ( and the  question ) stumped me a bit .   But the above is interesting .   I read somewhere that a 'man'  or a knight or a leader or something needs to be able to make a quick decision, a  firm direction and just declare it . Even if it is wrong it is better than wallowing around stagnant and going  " errmmmmm   ... errrr   .... ummmmm ...."

 

So maybe the original problem is generated from  the 'hero' not being complete  ? 

 

 

Yes I agree - until Sir Galahad arrives on the scene all the others fail - Percival, Bors, Lancelot because they are not perfect.

 

But the question remains why does asking a question heal the Fisher King????  It sounds like an initiation rite of some sort but usually its about answering a question or riddle - but in this case it is asking 'whom does the Grail serve?'

[Nungali]

I dont know much about this tradition, but the Fisher King was the ;old head'  yeah ? 

 

Without a new 'king' worthy ,  the tradition dies ....  a young man that can meet and pass the test ?

 

"The KIng is dead ! Long live the KIng ! "

 

.... something like that ?   

 

 

 

from 4.00  onwards 

 

 

[FraterUFA]

.

Edited April 20, 2019 by FraterUFA

[gendao]

^ Hmm, maybe on a deeper level...but perhaps on a more immediate one:

On 7/2/2017 at 11:43 AM, Apech said:

The Holy Grail : The History of a Legend

 

it's not New Agey or whacky in any way and is a sensible account of the Medieval Romance and how it began and developed.

 

But some interesting things from a spiritual interpretive perspective.

 

The hero (Perceval usually) goes to the court of the Fisher King who is wounded or ill.  He sees or is shown a ) a sword which broken and has to be mended  b  )  the lance which drips blood from its tip continuously and c ) the grail.

 

But because he doesn't ask the question 'whom does the grail serve' - the Fisher King is not healed.  Interestingly the land is sick (a wasteland) because the king is sick.

 

Question: why would asking that question heal the king????

This is just a speculative hunch...but I feel it fits an archetypal role like that of a "lineage holder."

 

In this role, the holder is entrusted to serve as a living vessel (grail) for some invaluable tradition, bloodline, etc. that otherwise cannot be replicated/duplicated on its own.  If ever lost, it would be ridiculously difficult to redevelop from scratch, if not nigh impossible...  And this "fluid line" is of a "spiritual/divine/irreplicable nature/origin that very tenuously requires a living, physical container in this realm.  It cannot really "exist" here (in this material realm) merely on its own.  And while such a line is timeless, physical containers are NOT.  They all age, wear down, and eventually break.  So, the precious fluid must be transferred generationally, in an unbroken chain, in order to preserve it.  It is much like torchbearers passing Prometheus's torch down...

The lineage holder serves this role.  And it's a bittersweet one, because while they may gain "divine" status/powers from possessing it, they also tend to sacrifice a lot (or all) of his life in order to do so.  A very familiar example HERE is "John Chang" - who's lived quite a tough life in mastering, safeguarding, and stewarding the Mo Pai art.  Which is also just common folklore in many martial arts, and other traditions, too...

Not to mention, in many more mundane aspects of ordinary life, as well.  Within each species or family, there is bloodline and culture to be passed down.  Etc, etc.

 

In any case, the Fisher King seems distraught with his failure to fulfill this role successfully.  His phallic sword is broken, implying impotence/powerlessness.  A bleeding lance might symbolize a mortal/primal wound that is still actively festering and not healed.  And the grail is a symbol of immense power, coupled with the burden of immense responsibility.

 

He has served his whole life serving this lineage and role, and lost a lot of it in the process.  The big question is - WHY?  And if he doesn't know the answer, has he lost the whole point?  Why has it been so important to HIM, personally?

 

Usually, the Campbellian "boon" we all seek is some long-lost part of ourselves, that we need to heal.  So, this boon should be his antidote, not poison.  Has he been slowly dying carrying around a heavy medicine bag this whole time, without actually consuming any of the medicine inside???

Edited July 10, 2017 by gendao

[Apech]

21 hours ago, FraterUFA said:

 

Perceval is the spiritual seeker, the lower self. The Fisher King is the soul imprisoned by matter. In these myths, he is variously wounded, ill or sleeping. The lance is a symbol of the intellectual/rational personality. The grail is the symbol of the unconscious. Who does the grail serve? The King, of course. 

 

Speaking as plainly as possible, it is the unborn spiritual potential which lies dormant in each individual, waiting to be woken and developed. This is achieved through a process of separation and purification of the two halves of the lower personality.

 

Best,

UFA

 

 

the answer in some texts is 'the father of the king' - which implies a lineage issue.

 

I agree about the sword - but surely the Lance is clearly phallic and the Cup/ Chalice is yonic (for want of a better word). ... indeed there is sometimes a platter which represents a stone - giving us all four Tarot suits if staone = pentacles and lance = wands.  I know this is anachronistic but anyway ...

[Apech]

54 minutes ago, gendao said:

^ Hmm, maybe on a deeper level...but perhaps on a more immediate one:

This is just a speculative hunch...but I feel it fits an archetypal role like that of a "lineage holder."

 

In this role, the holder is entrusted to serve as a living vessel (grail) for some invaluable tradition, bloodline, etc. that otherwise cannot be replicated/duplicated on its own.  If ever lost, it would be ridiculously difficult to redevelop from scratch, if not nigh impossible...  And this "fluid line" is of a "spiritual/divine/irreplicable nature/origin that very tenuously requires a living, physical container in this realm.  It cannot really "exist" here (in this material realm) merely on its own.  And while such a line is timeless, physical containers are NOT.  They all age, wear down, and eventually break.  So, the precious fluid must be transferred generationally, in an unbroken chain, in order to preserve it.  It is much like torchbearers passing Prometheus's torch down...

The lineage holder serves this role.  And it's a bittersweet one, because while they may gain "divine" status/powers from possessing it, they also tend to sacrifice a lot (or all) of his life in order to do so.  A very familiar example HERE is "John Chang" - who's lived quite a tough life in mastering, safeguarding, and stewarding the Mo Pai art.  Which is also just common folklore in many martial arts, and other traditions, too...

Not to mention, in many more mundane aspects of ordinary life, as well.  Within each species or family, there is bloodline and culture to be passed down.  Etc, etc.

 

In any case, the Fisher King seems distraught with his failure to fulfill this role successfully.  His phallic sword is broken, implying impotence/powerlessness.  A bleeding lance might symbolize a mortal/primal wound that is still actively festering and not healed.  And the grail is a symbol of immense power, coupled with the burden of immense responsibility.

 

He has served his whole life serving this lineage and role, and lost a lot of it in the process.  The big question is - WHY?  And if he doesn't know the answer, has he lost the whole point?  Why has it been so important to HIM, personally?

 

Usually, the Campbellian "boon" we all seek is a lost part of ourselves, that we need to heal.  So, this boon should be his antidote, not poison.  Has he been slowly dying carrying around a heavy medicine bag this whole time, without actually consuming any of the medicine inside???

 

yes to most of this from me - I think the reason Perceval has to ask the question - is to recognise/activate the lineage transmission - he if he does so becomes the new king.

[thelerner]

The aspect that gets my attention here and with Arthur, is the King and the land are connected.  As they waiver and sin, so the land suffers.  You can have the greatest artifacts, powers and wealth in the world, but 'whom do they serve?' is the most important question.  If its for ones own glory, then the land and king stay stagnant. 

 

The knight serves the prophets role, to question the king, even to shame him, til he renews his purity and devotion.  Perceval fails to fulfill that mission. 

[gendao]

1 hour ago, Apech said:

the answer in some texts is 'the father of the king' - which implies a lineage issue.

 

I agree about the sword - but surely the Lance is clearly phallic and the Cup/ Chalice is yonic (for want of a better word). ... indeed there is sometimes a platter which represents a stone - giving us all four Tarot suits if staone = pentacles and lance = wands.  I know this is anachronistic but anyway ...

Right, and the bleeding lance could also symbolize another broken phallus.  So, you have 2 broken dicks, basically, and a holy vagina.  Well, in order to continue the legacy...you need 1 working cack and 1 vagina.  But if you're 0-for-2 on cacks, it doesn't matter if you even got a vagina or not!

 

So, the Fisher King must be depressed because he knows that only HE can continue his Father's legacy and fulfill his expectations...and he even already has the magic yoni needed for that - but his own magic sticks are busted.  So, unless he can magically repair them, he is the tragic end of the line, and that all falls upon him.

 

No pressure there, son!

 

On a psychological level, this scenario also falls into the common struggles with living up to the expectations of your Father, others, and ultimately yourself.  Which is a whole topic in itself worthy of deep contemplation...

Edited July 9, 2017 by gendao

[Apech]

1 hour ago, gendao said:

Right, and the bleeding lance could also symbolize another broken phallus.  So, you have 2 broken dicks, basically, and a holy vagina.  Well, in order to continue the legacy...you need 1 working cack and 1 vagina.  But if you're 0-for-2 on cacks, it doesn't matter if you even got a vagina or not!

 

So, the Fisher King must be depressed because he knows that only HE can continue his Father's legacy and fulfill his expectations...and he even already has the magic yoni needed for that - but his own magic sticks are busted.  So, unless he can magically repair them, he is the tragic end of the line, and that all falls upon him.

 

No pressure there, son!

 

On a psychological level, this scenario also falls into the common struggles with living up to the expectations of your Father, others, and ultimately yourself.  Which is a whole topic in itself worthy of deep contemplation...

 

 

Viagra King

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

the answer in some texts is 'the father of the king' - which implies a lineage issue.

 

I agree about the sword - but surely the Lance is clearly phallic and the Cup/ Chalice is yonic (for want of a better word). ... indeed there is sometimes a platter which represents a stone - giving us all four Tarot suits if staone = pentacles and lance = wands.  I know this is anachronistic but anyway ...

 

Wand to Cup * ,  Lance to Grail , Spear to Cauldron ... depending on the tradition.

 

I have done the first two but not the third.  

 

*  some say this should be dagger .  Once a 'wiccan priestess' insisted  at  me  it should be dagger ( 'athame')   , when I said , "If, as you said, the cup is the ' Yoni '  well, I suppose its up to you then, if you prefer a dagger in there instead of a wand ', it made her reconsider my argument . 

 

Also it is rather hard to get a lance in a grail!    

 

       

 

( ya gotta hold it near the head and not have the end waggling around behind you so it doesnt put the deacons eye out   )

 

Spoiler

VIII
OF THE MYSTIC MARRIAGE AND CONSUMMATION OF THE ELEMENTS

The PRIEST takes the Paten between the index and medius of the right hand.

The PRIESTESS clasps the Cup in her right hand.

 

[ The Blessing of the Elements ]

 

The PRIEST: Lord most secret, bless this spiritual food unto our bodies, bestowing upon us health and wealth and strength and joy and peace, and that fulfilment of will and of love under will that is perpetual happiness. [NOTE] He makes  with Paten and kisses it.
[He sets Paten on Altar and hands Lance to Priestess.]

 

[ The Fractio ]

 

He uncovers the Cup, genuflects, rises. Music.

He takes the Host, and breaks it over the Cup.

He replaces the right-hand portion in the Paten.

He breaks off a particle of the left-hand portion.

TOUTO ESTI TO SPERMA MOU. HO PATÊR ESTIN HO HUIOS DIA TO PNEUMA HAGION.
AUMGN. AUMGN. AUMGN. He replaces the left-hand part of the Host.

 

[ The Consignatio and Commixto ]

 

The PRIESTESS extends the Lance-point with her left hand to receive the particle.

The PRIEST clasps the Cup in his left hand.

Together they depress the Lance-point in the Cup. [NOTE]

The PRIEST and the PRIESTESS: HRILIU. The PRIEST takes the Lance.

The PRIESTESS covers the Cup.

 

[ The Epiklesis ]

 

The PRIEST [hands the Lance to the Priestess] genuflects, rises, bows, joins hands. He strikes his breast.

The PRIEST: O Lion and O Serpent that destroy the destroyer, be mighty among us.
O Lion and O Serpent that destroy the destroyer, be mighty among us.
O Lion and O Serpent that destroy the destroyer, be mighty among us. [NOTE]

 

[ The Consummation of the Elements ]

 

The PRIEST joins hands upon the breast of the PRIESTESS, and takes back his Lance.

 

[thelerner]

 Beyond all the potent symbolism, seems to me Who does the Grail serve means focus on the moon (God) not the finger, I all the stuff    

[nohbody]

 Whose will be done? 

[mrpasserby]

On 7/2/2017 at 9:43 AM, Apech said:

I am reading this book at the moment:

 

The Holy Grail : The History of a Legend

 

it's not New Agey or whacky in any way and is a sensible account of the Medieval Romance and how it began and developed.

 

But some interesting things from a spiritual interpretive perspective.

 

The hero (Perceval usually) goes to the court of the Fisher King who is wounded or ill.  He sees or is shown a ) a sword which broken and has to be mended  b  )  the lance which drips blood from its tip continuously and c ) the grail.

 

But because he doesn't ask the question 'whom does the grail serve' - the Fisher King is not healed.  Interestingly the land is sick (a wasteland) because the king is sick.

 

Question: why would asking that question heal the king????

 

It is suggested the grail serves his father who was killed by a wicked brother (hints of Osiris myth) ... and the Fisher Kings are of a lineage starting with Joseph of Aramithea's brother in law and established when Joseph of A. brought the Grail from the Levant as it was the cup of the last supper and which held the blood of the crucified christ when J of A buried him.  the lance of course is the spear used to pierce Jesus' side when he was on the cross.

 

Anyway - anyone got an answer - why would aksing that question heal the wounded king????

Apech, 'a spiritual interpretive perspective', In my experience:  The real grail is only allowed to server a HERO, the question 'whom does the grail serve', asked of the

'Hero (Perceval usually)', means that because he himself is a Hero #he must decide, if the king is worthy to be allowed to eat from the Grail. 

##anchaint sayings claim that within the world of spirits the grail is a cauldron made from a head the contents of which heals energy bodies/spirits. This healing of energy bodies/spirits may have been what the author was hinting about?

 

This book seems to have been written by someone attempting to weave esoteric meanings into the words, this sort of esoteric writing was common among those who were afraid to lose favor with the christian church.

 'Interestingly the land is sick (a wasteland) because the king is sick.' 

In my experience: kings who are truly kings and not in name only, are subject to the genius loci, and the spirit world powers that be, the land spirits along with all of the people and their spirits are formed into a collective dragon/spirit/angel, into which a true kings energy body is **inserted as the head. He being the human who is accepted by the spirit realm powers, is allowed to rule in their place (reportedly called by the Japanese a mandate from heaven, which when it is withdrawn causes the kingdom/nation to fall and to be broken into pieces). This chosen king/president/leaders healing becomes the lands healing and his sickness reflects the lands sickness, (the sickness has more to do with the hearts, minds and energy bodies of the people which is reflected in the actual land.)

Spoiler

Because of christian fantastic writings for most of my life I thought that this grail business was all made up garbage. But then on one of my Journeys I was approached by a group of English Brits, in their energy bodies. These blue faced Brits were willing to give me the location of the cauldron (grail), in exchange for the location of their leader who had moved away from the British  islands. I did some studding and discovered that the pagans also recommended that the healing cauldron as being a real.  I am still not sure if this cauldron is worth pursuing because of time constraints, but it is intriguing.

**thus the saying the office is always bigger then the man, becomes a viable sentiment.

#The narrator then describes the cauldron of the Chief of Annwn: it is finished with pearl and will not boil a coward's food.

##In the Second Branch Bran gives his magic life-restoring cauldron to his new brother-in-law Matholwch of Ireland when he marries Bran's sister Branwen. Author sails across many kingdoms, to either rescue the prisoner Gweir or to retrieve the cauldron of the Head of Annwn. (shortened)

In my studies: the Romans and Christians added many tenets to their religion after the fact.

The legend may be a combination of genuine Christian lore with a Celtic myth of a cauldron endowed with special powers.

http://www.crystalinks.com/holygrail.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preiddeu_Annwfn

Edited September 23, 2017 by mrpasserby
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[Cheshire Cat]

Maybe the tale was originally inspired by a dream and the answer to Apech's question should be in the realm of ... dream logic.

 

We all had dreams where causal connections make perfect sense while asleep, but they doesn't once you wake up.

 

To really stretch the mysterious reality we live in, I could say that maybe dreams are driven and ruled by laws of attention and intent. To ask a question ( intent) about the grail would move the attention of the dreamer toward the grail and its associations of powers, virtues and effects. Specifically, the grail was a miraculous healing artifact.