Chinese Bones

[voidisyinyang]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

see how a real quote of what someone really wrote has a time and date stamp   

 

By the way ,   an influence from a culture that goes into a continent is not related to genetics  . 

 

 

On 7/9/2017 at 4:42 PM, Nungali said:

  Then a   ' culture'  or a 'connection between people'  started to develop, that was later  to be known as Aryan , named after the country they first formed that cultural connection 'hub'  and or  enclave .

 

The PIE languages may have been developed as a 'trade language' 

 

The influences  out of PII culture  were equally  cyclic, 'in and out'   ..... SOME  of those influences went into Europe and joined in with other influences there or coming into it . 

 

Just as several components came together to form the 'Aryans '   

 

 

 

 

 

 

You need to be "authenticated"?

 

Pretending you didn't write the above huh? hilarious.

 

 

 

[Nungali]

59 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Right - the "term" was used by the Persians - but that does not mean an actual "empire" existed.

 

 

Which is why I originally  said that on page 1  ... idiot !  

 

yet again, as I said 4 times now ... it might just be a description of the places they knew about . 

 

Obviously you are arguing in ignorance . Why ?   :

 

1.  You obviously have not read the passages in question in the original . The Vendidad's description of these ' nations '  ( if you prefer I can use the original  Avestan word     )    reads more like an ancient 'Pilot's Guide' to travelling and backpacking ; these are the good features of this place .. watch out for ..... the good things are ... the natives are known to be .... etc. 

 

Of course its all written in the way peeps wrote things back then  but heaven knows what your interpretations of that would be ! 

 

You would probably dispute it because it says 'God made these countries good or bad in their own ways but Airyanum Vaeja  was the best ' . 

 

Now, if you think the bolded bit is Nazism .....  well,     'God bless America !   '  ... the best country in the world  

 

pfffft  !  

 

 

59 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=a0IF9IdkdYEC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=vendidad+,+English+translation+aryan+empire&source=bl&ots=g-DwcqDf9M&sig=t8L7FuAgWytxScTs19CgcBSBWvg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjS9MqT3IzVAhWJxFQKHaW2A5YQ6AEIQzAF#v=onepage&q=vendidad %2C English translation aryan empire&f=false

 

2.   Its obvious you just googled Aryan and got this as those are the words highlighted .  

 

You should also learn to use the internet better . And also realise your browser keeps throwing up Nazi stuff as first hits as  you have pre programmed it by   going to so many Nazi sites constantly . 

 

Now your own computer has tagged you as a neo nazi   ......       now, when it gets electronically invaded and spied upon ( without you even knowing ) ...  the spies will know ! 

 

 Ha   -  haaarrrrrrr ! 

 

 

59 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

The reference to the term you give is from the 2nd century A.d. while in the OP you are referring to the 5th C. BCE. and yet the archeological digs in the Tarim Basim go back to what - 2nd millennium BCE.

 

Nope, I clearly referenced the term to its usage in the Vendidad. 

 

and you haven't even understood the context of the different parts of the first post and some asides I added in it . 

 

You concocted a story in your own head .

 

 

59 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

You used the term in the OP to describe an Aryan Empire stretching from China to the far West. Again this was never true.

 

Liar .   I never said  far west   as usual, you cant quote me , just make stuff up about what you think I said .

 

Which is stupid and further exposes you (by yourself ) as all anyone has to do is go to the first post and read exactly what I did say .

 

59 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

In the 4th hit - under google searching "old Aryan Empire" - you get an empire of India which again is not what you were describing. Now you say you meant an empire of Persia.

 

NOpe , never said it was an empire of Persia , persian empire came later . 

 

59 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

You say it refers to "culture and language" but as that book link points out even your "old Aryan empire" could not actually be called an empire - in contrast Romans considered all non-latin and non-Greek speakers to be Barbarians.

 

Get off the silly English understanding of Empire trip , I already said 6 times the word may not mean what we now think it means .... go look up the original word if it means that much to you . 

 

59 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Maybe that was the goal of the "aryan empire" but it did not achieve it. Maybe you consider such ethnocentrism to be admirable.

 

A “Persian” Iran?: Challenging the Aryan Myth and Persian Ethnocentrism

https://iranian.com/main/blog/ajammc/persian-iran-challenging-aryan-myth-and-persian-ethnocentrism.html

 

https://ajammc.com/2012/05/18/a-persian-iran-challenging-the-aryan-myth-and-persian-ethnocentrism/

 

 

 

 

 

As I already documented the Aryan theory uses "language and culture" as code for race.

 

To say race doesn't exist or is not referred to is just a tautology - of course race doesn't exist, just as "Jews have "jewish traits" is a self-circular tautology. That does not mean it isn't the basis for racism.

So using "language and culture" as an attempt to hide racism - is the same excuse as Aryan meaning "pure" as an aristocratic elite. So then you get this racist argument from the same meaning of "pure" Aryan language and culture:

 

Genetic Similarity Theory as a Cause for Ethnocentrism https://notpoliticallycorrect.me/2016/03/17/genetic-similarity-theory-as-a-cause-for-ethnocentrism/

 

 

I see ... I am now trying to deny that races exist as some type of cover to put forward a racial superiority  theory      

 

   ... even though the human race is    ....   one race      

 

Please go on ....    ( this just gets better and better    ) 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

54 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

You need to be "authenticated"?

 

Pretending you didn't write the above huh? hilarious.

 

 

 

 

 

Not at all ... I already said twice that a cultural influence from a group of people   going into another continent  is not any proof of, or need be related to genetics ...  or even  linguistics .... or even    cultural  transference  .   

 

Have you ever heard of  .........    trade  ?   

 

Note ... if I change the highlighting you added ;

 

SOME  of those influences went into Europe and joined in with other influences there or coming into it . 

 

And this followed me previously explaining how  some influence of their culture went into North Africa , including Egypt . ... I also meant trade , as I previously explained that  in detail .

 

 Now , if you would care to show a source for ancient Egyptian lapis lazuli other than coming from   ( now ) Afghanistan ....  or, if you like   , the ' Fourth Aryan Nation' of   Bakhdim  . ... go right ahead . 

 

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

11 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 

Not at all ... I already said twice that a cultural influence from a group of people   going into another continent  is not any proof of, or need be related to genetics ...  or even  linguistics .... or even    cultural  transference  .  

 

 

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Genetic evidence for the spread of Indo-Aryan languages

June 22, 2017 @ 9:19 pm · Filed by Victor Mair under Historical linguistics, Language and archeology, Language and genetics

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My own investigations on the Bronze Age and Early Iron Age peoples of Eastern Central Asia (ECA) began essentially as a genetics cum linguistics project back in the early 90s.  That was not long after the extraction of mtDNA (mitochondrial DNA) from ancient human tissues and its amplification by means of PCR (polymerase chain reaction) became possible.

 

By the mid-90s I had grown somewhat disenchanted with ancient DNA (aDNA) studies because the data were insufficient to determine the origins and affiliations of various early groups with satisfactory precision, neither spatially nor temporally.  Around the same time, I began to realize that other types of materials, such as textiles and metals, provided powerful diagnostic evidence.

By the late 90s, combining findings from all of these fields and others, I was willing to advance the hypothesis that some of the mummies of ECA, especially the earliest ones dating to around 1800 BC, may have spoken a pre-proto-form of Tocharian when they were alive (some people think it's funny or scary to imagine that mummies once could speak).  This hypothesis was presented at an international conference held at the University of Pennsylvania in April, 1996, which was attended by more than a hundred archeologists, linguists, geneticists, physical anthropologists, textile specialists, metallurgists, geographers, climatologists, historians, mythologists, and ethnologists — including more than half a dozen of the world's most distinguished Tocharianists.  It was most decidedly a multidisciplinary conference before it became fashionable to call academic endeavors by such terms (see " Xdisciplinary" [6/14/17]).  The papers from the conference were collected in this publication:

Victor H. Mair, The Bronze Age and Early Iron Age Peoples of Eastern Central Asia (Washington, D.C.: Institute for the Study of Man Inc. in collaboration with the University of Pennsylvania Museum Publications, 1998).  2 vols.

See also:

J. P. Mallory and Victor H. Mair, The Tarim Mummies: Ancient China and the Mystery of the Earliest Peoples from the West. (2000). Thames & Hudson. London.

"Early Indo-Europeans in Xinjiang" (11/19/08)

It is only very recently, within the last ten years or so, that Y-chromosome analysis has been brought into play for the study of ancient DNA.  See Toomas Kivisild, "The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA", Human Genetics, 2017; 136(5): 529–546; published online 2017 Mar 4. doi:  10.1007/s00439-017-1773-z.*  Since only males carry the Y-chromosome, this has made it possible to trace the patriline of individuals.  This, coupled with the massive accumulation and detailed analysis of modern DNA with increasing sophistication and the rise of the interdisciplinary (!) field referred to as genomics, has made studies on the genetics of premodern people, including their origins, migrations, and affinities, far more exacting than it was during the 90s when I did the bulk of my investigations on the early inhabitants of the Tarim Basin.

Now it is possible to draw on the results of genetics research to frame and more reliably solve questions about the development of languages from their homeland to the far-flung places where they subsequently came to be spoken.  One such inquiry is described in this article:

Tony Joseph, "How genetics is settling the Aryan migration debate", The Hindu (6/16/17).

It is significant that this substantial article appeared in The Hindu, since there is a strong bias against such conclusions among Indian nationalists (see "Indigenous Aryans").  It begins thus:

New DNA evidence is solving the most fought-over question in Indian history. And you will be surprised at how sure-footed the answer is, writes Tony Joseph

The thorniest, most fought-over question in Indian history is slowly but surely getting answered: did Indo-European language speakers, who called themselves Aryans, stream into India sometime around 2,000 BC – 1,500 BC when the Indus Valley civilisation came to an end, bringing with them Sanskrit and a distinctive set of cultural practices? Genetic research based on an avalanche of new DNA evidence is making scientists around the world converge on an unambiguous answer: yes, they did.

Joseph's paper is informed, sensitive, balanced, and nuanced.  This is responsible science journalism.

The scientific paper itself, “A Genetic Chronology for the Indian Subcontinent Points to Heavily Sex-biased Dispersals” by Marina Silva, Marisa Oliveira, Daniel Vieira, Andreia Brandão, Teresa Rito, Joana B. Pereira, Ross M. Fraser, Bob Hudson, Francesca Gandini, Ceiridwen Edwards, Maria Pala, John Koch, James F. Wilson, Luísa Pereira, Martin B. Richards, and Pedro Soares, was published in BMC Evolutionary Biology (3/23/17) ( DOI: 10.1186/s12862-017-0936-9).

I'm skeptical of many of the claims put forward by geneticists concerning origins and dispersals, not just about humans, but also about horses, dogs, cats, plants, and so forth.  This study, however, is both cautious and solid.  Moreover, it fits well with the archeological evidence (more below).

Here are two key paragraphs from the scientific paper (numbers in square brackets are to accessible references):

Although some have argued for co-dispersal of the Indo-Aryan languages with the earliest Neolithic from the Fertile Crescent [88, 89], others have argued that, if any language family dispersed with the Neolithic into South Asia, it was more likely to have been the Dravidian family now spoken across much of central and southern India [12]. Moreover, despite a largely imported suite of Near Eastern domesticates, there was also an indigenous component at Mehrgarh, including zebu cattle [85, 86, 90]. The more widely accepted “Steppe hypothesis” [91, 92] for the origins of Indo-European has recently received powerful support from aDNA evidence. Genome-wide, Y-chromosome and mtDNA analyses all suggest Late Neolithic dispersals into Europe, potentially originating amongst Indo-European-speaking Yamnaya pastoralists that arose in the Pontic-Caspian Steppe by ~5 ka, with expansions east and later south into Central Asia in the Bronze Age [53, 76, 93, 94, 95]. Given the difficulties with deriving the European Corded Ware directly from the Yamnaya [96], a plausible alternative (yet to be directly tested with genetic evidence) is an earlier Steppe origin amongst Copper Age Khavlyn, Srednij Stog and Skelya pastoralists, ~7-5.5 ka, with an infiltration of southeast European Chalcolithic Tripolye communities ~6.4 ka, giving rise to both the Corded Ware and Yamnaya when it broke up ~5.4 ka [12].

An influx of such migrants into South Asia would likely have contributed to the CHG component in the GW [VHM:  genome-wide] analysis found across the Subcontinent, as this is seen at a high rate amongst samples from the putative Yamnaya source pool and descendant Central Asian Bronze Age groups. Archaeological evidence suggests that Middle Bronze Age Andronovo descendants of the Early Bronze Age horse-based, pastoralist and chariot-using Sintashta culture, located in the grasslands and river valleys to the east of the Southern Ural Mountains and likely speaking a proto-Indo-Iranian language, probably expanded east and south into Central Asia by ~3.8 ka. Andronovo groups, and potentially Sintashta groups before them, are thought to have infiltrated and dominated the soma-using Bactrian Margiana Archaeological Complex (BMAC) in Turkmenistan/northern Afghanistan by 3.5 ka and possibly as early as 4 ka. The BMAC came into contact with the Indus Valley civilisation in Baluchistan from ~4 ka onwards, around the beginning of the Indus Valley decline, with pastoralist dominated groups dispersing further into South Asia by ~3.5 ka, as well as westwards across northern Iran into Syria (which came under the sway of the Indo-Iranian-speaking Mitanni) and Anatolia [12, 95, 97, 98].

The spread of R1a into South Asia had earlier been securely documented in Peter A. Underhill, et al., "The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a", European Journal of Human Genetics (2015) 23, 124–131; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2014.50; published online 26 March 2014.

The precise coalescence of R1a within South Asia was identified in Monika Karmin, et al., "A recent bottleneck of Y chromosome diversity coincides with a global change in culture", Genome Research (2015); doi: 10.1101/gr.186684.11; published in advance March 13, 2015 (supplemental material available electronically).

This kind of male migration theory is proposed with arguments based on archeological evidence in the last pages of H.-P. Francfort, “La civilisation de l'Oxus et les Indo-Iraniens et Indo-Aryens”, in: Aryas, Aryens et Iraniens en Asie Centrale (Collège de France. Publications de l'Institut de Civilisation Indienne, vol. 72), G. Fussman, J. Kellens, H.-P. Francfort, et X. Tremblay (eds.) (Paris:  Diffusion de Boccard, 2005) pp. 253-328.  The complete paper is on academia website.

Michael Witzel has favored this, the (Indo-)Aryan Migration view, on linguistic and textual grounds since at least 1995 and was constantly criticized for saying so. See his papers of 1995, 2001:

"Autochthonous Aryans? The Evidence from Old Indian and Iranian Texts."  EJVS (May 2001) pdf.

"Early Indian History: Linguistic and Textual Parameters."  In: Language, Material Culture and Ethnicity: The Indo-Aryans of Ancient South Asia. Ed. G. Erdosy (Berlin/New York: de Gruyter 1995), 85-125; —  Rgvedic history: poets, chieftains and politics, loc. cit. 307-352 combined pdf (uncorrected).

and the substrate paper of 1999:

"Early Sources for South Asian Substrate Languages." Mother Tongue (1999, extra number) pdf

Some relevant Language Log posts:

"Dating Indo-European" (12/10/03)

"The Linguistic Diversity of Aboriginal Europe" (1/6/09)

"Horse and wheel in the early history of Indo-European" (1/10/09)

"More on IE wheels and horses " (1/10/09)

"Inheritance versus lexical borrowing: a case with decisive sound-change evidence" (1/13/09)

"The place and time of Proto-Indo-European: Another round" (8/24/12)

"Irish DNA and Indo-European origins" (12/31/15)

*For those who are interested in the development of aDNA Y-chromosome studies beginning in the 2000s, I have some additional documentation and several relevant papers that I can send to you.

[Thanks to Richard Villems, Toomas Kivisild, and Peter Underhill]

June 22, 2017 @ 9:19 pm · Filed by Victor Mair under Historical linguistics, Language and archeology, Language and genetics

Permalink

 

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SxXz1ipGI8MJ:languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/%3Fp%3D33410&num=1&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1&vwsrc=0

[voidisyinyang]

24 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 

 Now , if you would care to show a source for ancient Egyptian lapis lazuli other than coming from   ( now ) Afghanistan ....  or, if you like   , the ' Fourth Aryan Nation' of   Bakhdim  . ... go right ahead . 

 

 

 

 

So here's your Pan-Aryan right-wing ideology site that you love to rely on - even though it made the silly error of claiming Strabo was referring to the Tarim Basin!! haha.

 

 

Quote

 

Aryan Trade and Zoroastrianism. Silk Roads - Zoroastrian Heritage

www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/trade.htm

Yazd Pilgrimage Sites · Pir-e Sabz / Chak-Chak · Seti Pir · Pir-e Naraki · Pir-e Banu .... By the 3rd millennium BC, the lapis lazuli trade had extended south to ... lapis working sites have been discovered, and on to Mesopotamia and Egypt. ... Marco Polo visited the Sar-e Sang mines during his travels along the Silk Road.

 

 

Seems nice right?

 

But the problem with that claim - is the science I just posted proves that Central Asia was not "Aryan" yet by the 3rd millennium BCE.

 

Quote

Archaeological evidence suggests that Middle Bronze Age Andronovo descendants of the Early Bronze Age horse-based, pastoralist and chariot-using Sintashta culture, located in the grasslands and river valleys to the east of the Southern Ural Mountains and likely speaking a proto-Indo-Iranian language, probably expanded east and south into Central Asia by ~3.8 ka.

 

3.8 ka = 1800 BCE which is the 2nd millennium BCE not 3rd millennium.

 

In other words - this Aryan trade that you refer to is actually pre-Aryan - the older Near Eastern Afroasiatic neolithic culture.

 

So back to your site on Aryan blah blah b.s.

 

Quote

By the second half of the 4th millennium BCE, Badakshan lapis lazuli (stone of blue) was being traded in countries as far west as Sumer and Akkad (Mesopotamia), and the Nile Delta (Egypt) (cf. Ancient Mesopotamian Materials and Industries by Peter Roger Stuart Moorey, p. 86).

 

Yeah that's great trade but it's not Aryan trade.

 

 

[Nungali]

You cant even understand the quotes you are rushing off to  find at random 

 

The last one states  ; 

 

By the second half of the 4th millennium BCE, Badakshan lapis lazuli (stone of blue) was being traded in countries as far west as Sumer and Akkad (Mesopotamia), and the Nile Delta (Egypt) (cf. Ancient Mesopotamian Materials and Industries by Peter Roger Stuart Moorey, p. 86)

 

That means the start of  trade  ....  it continued for some time . 

 

Also a cultural influence can accrete to a trade commodity that passes through  a culture even though it might not originate there.  Thats so obvious ... I will randomly type in   'ancient lapis lazuli trade ' , and  quote the first hit   ( that isnt Wiki .... as you are want to do  )  

 

 

" Erich Schmidt’s excavations at Tepe Hissar (1931-32) for the University Museum as well as those of the Soviet Academy of Sciences in southern Turkmenia and of the Istituto Italiano per it Medio ed Estremo Oriente at Shahr-i Sokhta have revealed the existence of technologically advanced towns and villages on the western slopes of the Afghanistan plateau.

 

In the strata corresponding to the period 3000-2000 B.C. in the larger settlements, in particular at Shahr-i Sokhta and Tepe Hissar, remarkably large quantities of chips, rejects and finished objects of lapis lazuli have been found side by side with equally large num­bers of stone implements made of flint, jasper and touchstone.

 

In the past, workers engaged in studying ancient urban civilizations paid relatively little attention to the lithic industry, absorbed as they were in the study of artistic and monumental products. And yet, according to the evidence at hand, it seems likely that, during the whole of the 3rd millennium, tech­nology and economic production were still closely linked to stone implements. Whereas in Mesopotamia it may be claimed that these implements were rapidly replaced by metal ones, in Iran, Turkmenia and the Indus Valley many classes of implements were only slightly affected by the advent of metallurgy.

 

However, the evidence provided by the latest research seems to indicate that these classes were affected, as regards quantity and typology of the implements, by the gradual increase in trading. In the trading regions be­tween the mining centers in Afghanistan and the Mesopotamian markets, the relationship between technology and trade is reversed with respect to Mesopotamia. Rather than technology stimulating trade, the latter affects the specialization of men and implements in the regions the product passes through. "

 

 

https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/lithic-technology-behind-the-ancient-lapis-lazuli-trade/

 

[Nungali]

also   

 

I specifically said  : 

 

"  Not at all ... I already said twice that a cultural influence from a group of people   going into another continent  is not any proof of, or need be related to genetics ...  or even  linguistics .... or even    cultural  transference  .  "

 

I doubt you even know what is going here .    You have  next to zero reading comprehension   , prob  due to blindness as you are now just  blindly reacting and thrashing about ..... without actually reading any other person's explanation .....

 

Your level  has gone from 'internet frenzy' , to  'internut' ... soon to be   ' rabid internut '  .

 

Do continue .          

[voidisyinyang]

1 minute ago, Nungali said:

also   

 

I specifically said  : 

 

"  Not at all ... I already said twice that a cultural influence from a group of people   going into another continent  is not any proof of, or need be related to genetics ...  or even  linguistics .... or even    cultural  transference  .  "

 

I doubt you even know what is going here .    You have  next to zero reading comprehension   , prob  due to blindness as you are now just  blindly reacting and thrashing about ..... without actually reading any other person's explanation .....

 

Your level  has gone from 'internet frenzy' , to  'internut' ... soon to be   ' rabid internut '  .

 

Do continue .          

 

First of all - "ad hominems" are boring - so don't waste your time.

 

2ndly you state this:

 

Quote

 

That means the start of  trade  ....  it continued for some time . 

 

Also a cultural influence can accrete to a trade commodity that passes through  a culture even though it might not originate there.

 

 

So we are talking about the trade of  lapis lazuli (stone of blue).

 

You have claimed it is an "Aryan trade" yet I just documented it started a couple thousand years before the "aryans."

 

You state - "that means the start of the trade."

 

Duh - that's exactly my point - it was started and continued for a couple thousands of years - therefore trading Lapis lazuli is not "Aryan trade" contrary to the claims of the Pan-Aryan website you embrace.

 

So you link to UPENN. Great.

 

Any mention of Aryans trading Lapis Lazuli on that site?

 

Nope.

 

Now to your claims of Pan-Aryanism not being genetic.

 

As I have stated - that is just a cover up for ethnocentrism as elitism.

 

Abdulaziz Ali4 months ago

Quote

 

If you think being Aryan is ONLY about certain physical traits and genes then you got it wrong, many so called Europeans nowadays are the opposite of an Aryan though they have the common outward traits of one, and that's because you have to be Aryan in spirit first and then you might think of having an offspring of evolved nobility, the West have been in degeneration since the late Middle Ages and got worse thereof, Hitler tried to do something but we know the story, it's sad, and white people should not take this as mere egoistic supremacy but rather a cultural and human responsibility.

 

 

So that perfectly describes the claim you are making.

 

And so when did the Aryans develop their language? When the tribes invaded the area - long after the Lapis Lazuli trade was going on.

 

Quote

Deh Morasi Gundai was eventually abandoned about 1500 BC, perhaps because of the westward shift of the river on which it was built. Mundigak continued another 500 years. Two successive invasions by a nomadic tribe from the north forced the inhabitants to abandon the city after more than 2,000 years of continuous occupation.

https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh02-02enl.html

 

Quote

Aryan Migration

After 2400 BC, throughout Central Asia the growth of urban societies was severely challenged. Within a span of some three hundred years, none of the major centers that developed during the first half of the 3rd millennium were still occupied. The precise reasons for this "urban collapse" remain a mystery. Yet toward the end of 3rd millennium, across northern Afghanistan and southern Turkemenistan and Uzbekistan, a series of events fueled the rise of cities and settlements that was to have a major impact.

Large numbers of nomadic invaders or migrants, pastoral citiless people travelling on horseback and by chariot, long known (conveniently, perhaps wrongly) as Aryans (derived from the Sanskrit word for "nobles"), migrated south from the Caspian Sea region across the Oxus (present-day Amu Darya) River to present-day Afghanistan during the late early 2nd millennium (by circa 1700 BC).

 

So that's how Proto-Indo-European turned into Proto-Indo-Iranian or Proto-Aryan.

 

 

[voidisyinyang]

53 minutes ago, Nungali said:

 and  quote the first hit   ( that isnt Wiki .... as you are want to do  ) 

 

I have made 139 links in this thread that are not Wiki and 6 links that are Wiki.

 

So let's do a percentage. 4% Wiki links of all my links on this thread.

 

Or in other words 96% of my links are not Wiki.

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

First of all - "ad hominems" are boring - so don't waste your time.

 

2ndly you state this:

 

 

So we are talking about the trade of  lapis lazuli (stone of blue).

 

You have claimed it is an "Aryan trade" yet I just documented it started a couple thousand years before the "aryans."

 

again , you cant quote me saying that can you   

 

You missed the thread of why this particular explanation came and  in what context it  was supposed to be read ... it wasnt a claim that Lapis lazuli ws aryan trade at all .     Go back and read the last 3 pages ... camly . 

Quote

 

You state - "that means the start of the trade."

 

Duh - that's exactly my point - it was started and continued for a couple thousands of years - therefore trading Lapis lazuli is not "Aryan trade" contrary to the claims of the Pan-Aryan website you embrace.

 

You are now the one claiming it was 'aryan trade '    so you wrong again ! 

 

Quote

 

So you link to UPENN. Great.

 

Any mention of Aryans trading Lapis Lazuli on that site?

 

Nope.

 

Now to your claims of Pan-Aryanism not being genetic.

 

As I have stated - that is just a cover up for ethnocentrism as elitism.

 

Abdulaziz Ali4 months ago

 

So that perfectly describes the claim you are making.

 

And so when did the Aryans develop their language? When the tribes invaded the area - long after the Lapis Lazuli trade was going on.

 

I already described this  .... about how there are original neolithic evidence in the area , different people moving in and out , influence  to and fro from Indus  ... remember all that ? ....  ingress from the steppe , contact with 'China"  ... but you just take one thing , scream and shout 

  

" Now he is saying that Chinese were Aryans ! "      ... oh, thats right you already tried that one ... or was it the Aryans were Chinese .... actually I think you claimed I said both        

 

 

 

Quote

 

https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh02-02enl.html

 

 

So that's how Proto-Indo-European turned into Proto-Indo-Iranian or Proto-Aryan.

 

 

 

Now you have put up a good summary (for your proof ? )  of many of the things I have been trying to tell you about ... that you never heard of until you started talking to me in the first place  .  

 

You didnt even know about 'Central Asia's Lost Civilisation ' and hence must never have encountered the BMAC ( both from Sarinidi who I also quoted and linked to  )

 

What a strange fellow !

Edited July 16, 2017 by Nungali

[Nungali]

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

I have made 139 links in this thread that are not Wiki and 6 links that are Wiki.

 

So let's do a percentage. 4% Wiki links of all my links on this thread.

 

Or in other words 96% of my links are not Wiki.

 

 

No  .... all your goings on about   first hit  second hit    etc  .   ... that  isnt wiki    ....    see how you read what you want in things ? 

 

( I swear ... its like talking to a sheep !  )

 

You dont know how your search engine works do you ?  

 

Now, when you type in  just about anything , you gonna get  neo nazi hits somewhere on the page .

 

I advise you to  'stop it  ... or you go blind '  ... oh wait , that already happened I think .... serves you right for being so 'vigourous "  about it     

Edited July 16, 2017 by Nungali

[Apech]

[Marblehead]

7 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Genocidal colonialism did cause tribes to become more war-like indeed.

I will concede that as a fact.  The English vs the French help destroy the culture of many tribes and their people.

 

[Apech]

1 hour ago, Marblehead said:

I will concede that as a fact.  The English vs the French help destroy the culture of many tribes and their people.

 

 

 

i watched that film with leonardo de Caprio where he gets mauled by a bear.  In this film there are nice indians who help him and nasty ones who attack and kill everyone.  When I researched the 'nice' tribe I found out they practiced human sacrifice.   Because they were the victims of near genocide we tend to look back with fondness - but the noble savage is a myth.

 

 

[Marblehead]

4 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

 

i watched that film with leonardo de Caprio where he gets mauled by a bear.  In this film there are nice indians who help him and nasty ones who attack and kill everyone.  When I researched the 'nice' tribe I found out they practiced human sacrifice.   Because they were the victims of near genocide we tend to look back with fondness - but the noble savage is a myth.

 

 

Valid, I think, all you said except for "but the noble savage is a myth."

 

There were and still are noble savages - those who wish to hold to and teach their culture of peace to the younger generations.

 

We can even see this in Central and South America.  

 

Many tribes had no written language so there is no record of their history except for what can be assumed by remains of the culture.

 

 

[Apech]

5 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Valid, I think, all you said except for "but the noble savage is a myth."

 

There were and still are noble savages - those who wish to hold to and teach their culture of peace to the younger generations.

 

We can even see this in Central and South America.  

 

Many tribes had no written language so there is no record of their history except for what can be assumed by remains of the culture.

 

 

 

Well, maybe, but the term 'noble savage' is from Rousseau and is a kind of reverse racism.  It is as if we are saying genocide (or near genocide) was bad because these people were noble savages.  While actually even if they were, as I believe, like all humans something of a mixture of good and bad and indifferent - well, still genocide is wrong.  They were/are no better or worse than we are - which is fine, they are human the same as us.  Otherwise you fall into the intersectionalist view that 'whiteness' = bad and 'people of colour' = good.

 

 

[Marblehead]

44 minutes ago, Apech said:

 

Well, maybe, but the term 'noble savage' is from Rousseau and is a kind of reverse racism.  It is as if we are saying genocide (or near genocide) was bad because these people were noble savages.  While actually even if they were, as I believe, like all humans something of a mixture of good and bad and indifferent - well, still genocide is wrong.  They were/are no better or worse than we are - which is fine, they are human the same as us.  Otherwise you fall into the intersectionalist view that 'whiteness' = bad and 'people of colour' = good.

 

 

Well, you done good.  Gave me nothing to comment to.  Agreements are inspiring but rather boring.

 

But I will say that I have never referred to them as "noble savages".  It never seems right or accurate to me.

 

I'll bet a lot of their bones looked like Chinese bones.

 

[silent thunder]

I'm ignorant, no doubt.  But this conversation has been fascinating and I sometimes don't let my ignorance stop me from blabbing... so, this is what I'm prompted to add to this intriguing conversation about something way over my head and out of my field of prior study.

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

First, before completing your read, you are not ignorant.  Not by a long shot.  There's lots of wisdom in dem der bones.

 

Now, back to what you wrote.

[Marblehead]

Okay.  Bad example in that picture you posted.

 

I can't even refer to it in any kind of response.

 

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

No  .... all your goings on about   first hit  second hit    etc  .   ... that  isnt wiki    ....    see how you read what you want in things ? 

 

( I swear ... its like talking to a sheep !  )

 

You dont know how your search engine works do you ?  

 

Now, when you type in  just about anything , you gonna get  neo nazi hits somewhere on the page .

 

I advise you to  'stop it  ... or you go blind '  ... oh wait , that already happened I think .... serves you right for being so 'vigourous "  about it     

 

You can't spell Vigorous correctly.

 

 

Quote

 

vigourous at Dumbtionary.com

www.dumbtionary.com/word/vigourous.shtml

The word listed above (vigorous) is probably the correct spelling for the word that you entered (vigourous). This is just an educated guess based on commonly .

 

 

 

You're claim about my google search engine is silly as Apeche used duckduckgo and so did I - for his "old aryan empire" search.

 

Duckduckgo brought up the same "four hits"

 

So nice try dude. The "four hits" I got was at the very beginning of this thread before google would have reweighted my search results.

Edited July 16, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

On 7/6/2017 at 4:54 PM, Nungali said:

Ohhhh Goood ! 

 

let us all know what his response to you is   .  

 

 

  Hide contents

 

 

 

Quote

 

Aryan Saka, Scythia & Scythians - Zoroastrian Heritage

www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/saka/saka4.htm

Strabo in Geographia 11.8.2 states (translation by Jones, our notes in []): "But the best known of the nomads [Saka] are those who took away Bactriana from the Greeks, I mean the Asii, Pasiani, Tochari [commonly thought as originating in Tarim Basin, Khotan], and Sacarauli [see Sarikoli, the language spoken in Tashkurgan ...

 

 

Dude had to change his quote due to the email I sent him.

 

Hilarious.

 

Now is he gonna change his whole "Aryan Lapis Lazuli" trade claim when it was NOT Aryan trade for thousands of years?

 

Guess I'll email him again.

Edited July 16, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[voidisyinyang]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

 

No  .... all your goings on about   first hit  second hit    etc  .   ... that  isnt wiki    ....    see how you read what you want in things ? 

 

11 hours ago, Nungali said:

 and  quote the first hit   ( that isnt Wiki .... as you are want to do  ) 

 

 

Blah blah - changing your mind all the time aren't you?

[thelerner]

Just a suggestion here, voidisyinyang- using GIANT FONT is not persuasive and throws off arguments.  Perhaps underline or bold would make it seem less like shouting.  Cause shouting tends to turn honest debate into angry argument. 

 

You both have good points.  This is an interesting discussion.  For both parties please be mindful to keep the argument civil.  It started out charged due to the word Aryan, but it shouldn't stay that way. 

 

Thank you.

 

 

**To a lesser degree I'd add very long multi-paragraph quotes tend to be left unread.  Often a synopsis and adding the long quote in smaller font at the bottom works better. 

[voidisyinyang]

Dear K.E. Eduljee: Thank you for editing your quote of Strabo. You also state this incorrectly as being Aryan trade when in fact the "Aryans" did not trade lapis Lazuli until much later. Please correct this error:

Aryan Trade and Zoroastrianism. Silk Roads - Zoroastrian Heritage

www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/trade.htm

Jump to Badakshan Lapis Lazuli - By the second half of the 4th millennium BCE, Badakshan lapis lazuli (stone of blue) was being traded in countries as ...

Notice how there are no mentions of Aryans in this academic link on Lapis lazuli trade? https://www.penn.museum/sites/expedition/lithic-technology-behind-the-ancient-lapis-lazuli-trade/
 

And see how the Aryans moved into the area much later then second half of 4th millennium BCE?

 

  Quote

Deh Morasi Gundai was eventually abandoned about 1500 BC, perhaps because of the westward shift of the river on which it was built. Mundigak continued another 500 years. Two successive invasions by a nomadic tribe from the north forced the inhabitants to abandon the city after more than 2,000 years of continuous occupation.

https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh02-02enl.html

 

  Quote

Aryan Migration

After 2400 BC, throughout Central Asia the growth of urban societies was severely challenged. Within a span of some three hundred years, none of the major centers that developed during the first half of the 3rd millennium were still occupied. The precise reasons for this "urban collapse" remain a mystery. Yet toward the end of 3rd millennium, across northern Afghanistan and southern Turkemenistan and Uzbekistan, a series of events fueled the rise of cities and settlements that was to have a major impact.

Large numbers of nomadic invaders or migrants, pastoral citiless people travelling on horseback and by chariot, long known (conveniently, perhaps wrongly) as Aryans (derived from the Sanskrit word for "nobles"), migrated south from the Caspian Sea region across the Oxus (present-day Amu Darya) River to present-day Afghanistan during the late early 2nd millennium (by circa 1700 BC).

But this Lapis Lazuli trade was not "Aryan" until a couple thousand years later. So it is factually incorrect to claim that is Aryan trade at that early history.

 

  Quote

Deh Morasi Gundai was eventually abandoned about 1500 BC, perhaps because of the westward shift of the river on which it was built. Mundigak continued another 500 years. Two successive invasions by a nomadic tribe from the north forced the inhabitants to abandon the city after more than 2,000 years of continuous occupation.

https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/afgh02-02enl.html