Chinese Bones

[Brian]

8 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I try to avoid mention of a superior race or associated bullshit.  That is nothing less than ego talking.  The differences between various geological areas and their climates and resources has much to do with the development of a peoples.

 

But then, I think that tracing bones using the development of languages is flawed.  Trace languages with languages and bones with bones.

 

 

The Daytona 500 is a superior race to the Indianapolis 500. 

[Nungali]

15 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

O.k. - you don't have any evidence in your post.

 

So to be sympathetic to your opinion I googled

 

cyrus women rights empire

 

This is the first hit I got:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/2420263/Cyrus-cylinders-ancient-bill-of-rights-is-just-propaganda.html

 

So now its your turn to provide some evidence.

 

Please keep in mind your "heritage institute" website has made 2 prominent errors that I've exposed - and did not correct the first error properly.

 

But if you want to keep using the "heritage institute" pan-aryanism website - go for it and we'll see where the evidence takes us.

 

 

 

Okay ... I type in 'history of human rights ... first hit 

 

In 539 B.C., the armies of Cyrus the Great, the first king of ancient Persia, conquered the city of Babylon. But it was his next actions that marked a major advance for Man. He freed the slaves, declared that all people had the right to choose their own religion, and established racial equality. These and other decrees were recorded on a baked-clay cylinder in the Akkadian language with cuneiform script.

 

Known today as the Cyrus Cylinder, this ancient record has now been recognized as the world’s first charter of human rights. It is translated into all six official languages of the United Nations and its provisions parallel the first four Articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The Spread of Human Rights

From Babylon, the idea of human rights spread quickly to India, Greece and eventually Rome. There the concept of “natural law” arose, in observation of the fact that people tended to follow certain unwritten laws in the course of life, and Roman law was based on rational ideas derived from the nature of things.

Documents asserting individual rights, such as the Magna Carta (1215), the Petition of Right (1628), the US Constitution (1787), the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (1789), and the US Bill of Rights (1791) are the written precursors to many of today’s human rights documents.

 

http://www.humanrights.com/what-are-human-rights/brief-history/

 

The 2nd hit was wiki which shows BOTH academic view points   ..... and it isnt THAT unusual for a subject, when looked at deeply for academics to argue about it  ... of course ;

 

" In opposition to the above viewpoint, the interpretation of the Cylinder as a "charter of human rights" has been dismissed by other historians and characterized by some others as political propaganda devised by the Pahlavi regime.^[8] The German historian Josef Wiesehöfer argues that the image of "Cyrus as a champion of the UN human rights policy ... is just as much a phantom as the humane and enlightened Shah of Persia",^[9] while historian Elton L. Daniel has described such an interpretation as "rather anachronistic" and tendentious.^[10] The cylinder now lies in the British Museum, and a replica is kept at the United Nations Headquarters. 

 

thats the part in wiki containing some criticism      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_rights

 

Text , where it SAYS what the rights are   ;     http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=327188&partId=1

 

But do we just fling academics conflicting views at each other ?   I suggest not, everything I have written does not come from running to the internet and googling  for an adverse opinion ... one has to look at the subject holistically , and I have to assume you have not, as earlier on, with many subjects here you didnt have a cue they exosted until you decoded to refute what I was saying.

 

Any hooz,  there is ither indicators  other than the Cyrus seal ... if they treared people well, the evidence should be in history , in the past ,  we need to find where it came from ... we can , the concept of Good Kingship ... its in the Avestas ... the evidence ? The release of the Jews and their support is one .   For the religious,  'it says so ! '   - in the BIble .

 

Historically ;  

 

Treatment of women ;

 

 " This section is dedicated to some of the most powerful women of Persia that never received the historical recognition they deserve due to passage of time and accidents of history. Women in Persia were very honored and revered, they often held very important & influential positions in the Courthouse, Ministries, Military, State and Treasury Department, and other official administrations. The significant role of women in Ancient Persia both horrified and fascinated the ancient Greek and Roman male-dominated societies. The fortification tablets at the Ruins of Persepolis also reveals that men and women were represented in identical professions and that they received equal payments as skilled laborers and that gender was not a criterion at all (unlike our modern world). New mothers and pregnant women even received wages far above those of their male co-workers in order to show appreciation. Women enjoyed a high level of gender equality before the imposition of the dark, backward, and pernicious Abrahamic ideologies (Judaism, Christianity, and especially Islam) after the barbaric Arab invasion upon Persia which destroyed our Equal rights, Freedom of speech and Freedom of religion and replaced those factors with central primitive brutal government, prejudice and slavery. There is much evidence that the principles of Zoroastrianism lay the core foundation to the first Declaration of Human Rights in the Persian Empire set by Cyrus the Great since the rulers of Persia were Zoroastrians and relatively liberal and progressive. "

 

http://www.persepolis.nu/

 

http://apranik.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/persian-female-warriors.html

 

Some of the first people that gave animals rights  ( again , it their law, in the Avestas ) 

 

http://www.animalsandsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/foltz.pdf

 

Religious toleration ; 

 

" Professor Richard Frye, a renowned expert in Iranian and Central Asian studies, notes that “[T]he figure of Cyrus has survived throughout history as more than a great man who founded an empire. He became the epitome of the great qualities expected of a ruler in antiquity, and he assumed heroic features as a conqueror who was tolerant and magnanimous as well as brave and daring. His personality as seen by the Greeks influenced them and Alexander the Great, and, as the tradition was transmitted by the Romans, may be considered to influence our thinking even now.”[8] " 

 

"  Cyrus introduced a different approach and attitude towards religious tolerance in the region.[12] Subsequent Achaemenid emperors, for example Cambyses and Darius, continued Cyrus’s policies and allowed the satrapies (provinces of the Achaemenid Empire) to maintain their own laws, and religious and cultural values. This religious tolerance proved to strengthen the political stability and success of the Achaemenid Empire. "

https://tavaana.org/en/content/cyrus-great-and-religious-tolerance

 

 

The Archaemenian kings are known to have been very pious Zoroastrians, trying to rule justly and in accordance with the Zoroastrian law of asha (truth and righteousness).

Carving from the ruins of Persepolis ©

Cyrus the Great was relatively liberal. While he himself ruled according to Zoroastrian beliefs, he made no attempt to impose Zoroastrianism on the people of his subject territories. The Jewsmost famously benefited from this; Cyrus permitted them to return to Jerusalem from exile in Babylon, and rebuild their temple. This act of kindness made a huge impact on Judaism. Zoroastrian philosophy powerfully influenced post-Exilic Judaism.

Darius the Great was famously pious and showed the same general tolerance for other faiths as his predecessor Cyrus. His piety is expressed in religious inscriptions left on his tomb.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/history/persia_1.shtml

 

 

How Cyrus’ View of Religious Toleration May Have Inspired the American Constitution

http://blog.cyrusmehta.com/2013/07/how-cyrus-view-of-religious-toleration-may-have-inspired-the-american-constitution.html

 

Of course  some people argue about this ....   and some are academics ... they are allowed to have varied viewpoints .

 

BUT  that is how Cyrus is known and what he is famous for  .....  one cant really make the same argument for Genghis Khan, Stalin, or other leaders that are known for Intolerance .

 

Unless you are suggesting the  Cyrus pulled off the biggest propaganda scam in all of known history    

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Marblehead said:

I think the entire study is flawed.  Can we start over again?

 

 

Sure you can start over again ;  here is your stone axe, your buffalo  skin  lap-lap  and a fire stick  ... you can have the last cave on the end at the right ... near the saber tooth  tiger  lair . 

[Nungali]

7 hours ago, Apech said:

I was looking for where I picked up the idea that Vedic culture was language based/cultural and not ethnic and found this - which does not address the point but is quite interesting:

 

 

 

 

It shows that ...  ' those people that would become Vedic Indians '   ( or , to put it another way  - those PIE speakers, perhaps in the more southern areas or concentrated more in the southern areas )  already had, or developed because of , contact or intermingling with the 'Dravidians'.  I wrote about this earlier and  cited an Indus valley trading post way up in Afghanistan  on an Oxus tributary ( that flows into and through  'Bactria'  )  ..... there already was Indus influence in central asia before the 'Aryanisation' of NE India . 

 

Thats why they constantly have this argument about it.... there is evidence of both an Indus ingress into Central Asia and a central Asian ingress into India . 

 

Like I said at the beginning, people flowed back and forward and to and fro  ... it only common sense ! 

 

The problem is people look at one set of evidence ... and also do not consider, 'evidence' , especially archaeological , is just  'the stuff that we have found' , whereas 'cultural anthropology' needs to look at just about every indicator over wide fields  ( yes, even religion and mythology ) .

 

There is also evidence to indicate Indus ( '  Dravidians ' ) had contact with Mesopotamia via the (mostly mythological) port of Dil - mun .   But I already wrote about that . 

[Nungali]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

The Daytona 500 is a superior race to the Indianapolis 500. 

 

and  the Bonneville salt flats  gave its name to the most superior motorcycle  ever 

 

 

 

 

( Never ......  never   ... sell your old Bonny !    Your life will be full of regret   )   

Edited July 17, 2017 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

2 hours ago, Brian said:

The Daytona 500 is a superior race to the Indianapolis 500. 

Okay.  You got a chuckle from me.

 

[Nungali]

Cyrus the Great's original plan for the Triumph Bonneville  ;

 

 

Spoiler

 

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

A superior off road vehicle.

[Brian]

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

and  the Bonneville salt flats  gave its name to the most superior motorcycle  ever 

 

 

 

 

( Never ......  never   ... sell your old Bonny !    Your life will be full of regret   )   

Curious thing is, I was on the Triumph website earlier today...

[Nungali]

Not curious at all my 'friend'                  

 

 

Read any good books lately  ?  

 

 

 

[Brian]

8 minutes ago, Nungali said:

Not curious at all my 'friend'                  

 

 

Read any good books lately  ?  

 

 

 

 

I have, actually -- "Nine nights with the Taoist Master."

[Nungali]

I have a copy of 

 

 

prob the most stupid book I read .

 

Oh well, all is well that ends well :  now you got me interested in     "Nine nights with the Taoist Master."    

[Apech]

9 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

It shows that ...  ' those people that would become Vedic Indians '   ( or , to put it another way  - those PIE speakers, perhaps in the more southern areas or concentrated more in the southern areas )  already had, or developed because of , contact or intermingling with the 'Dravidians'.  I wrote about this earlier and  cited an Indus valley trading post way up in Afghanistan  on an Oxus tributary ( that flows into and through  'Bactria'  )  ..... there already was Indus influence in central asia before the 'Aryanisation' of NE India . 

 

Thats why they constantly have this argument about it.... there is evidence of both an Indus ingress into Central Asia and a central Asian ingress into India . 

 

Like I said at the beginning, people flowed back and forward and to and fro  ... it only common sense ! 

 

The problem is people look at one set of evidence ... and also do not consider, 'evidence' , especially archaeological , is just  'the stuff that we have found' , whereas 'cultural anthropology' needs to look at just about every indicator over wide fields  ( yes, even religion and mythology ) .

 

There is also evidence to indicate Indus ( '  Dravidians ' ) had contact with Mesopotamia via the (mostly mythological) port of Dil - mun .   But I already wrote about that . 

 

Except that there is no real hard evidence that the Indus Valley Culture was Dravidian.  I'm not saying it wasn't just we don't know it was.  The most frequently named river in the Rig Veda is the Saraswati and there is some evidence that this is a dried up river parallel to the Indus which dried up by 1900 BC pre-dating the nominal date of the Veda of 1200 BC (unless you are an Indian nationalist who give a much earlier date).  So it is likely that the people who wrote the Rig Veda were in the Indus Valley when the IVC was still extant or they were (part of at least) the IVC.

 

As you suggest there is (I think) some evidence that the area now known as Afghanistan was a continuous trading route from the earliest times allowing movement of people form North India to and from Iran and so on.  I would suggest there was a percolation of peoples from the time when the IVC was at its height - from then on at least.

 

 

[Marblehead]

9 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

 superior off road vehicle.

And you can have one for only 1.7 mil.

 

[Wu Ming Jen]

Thats a superior price are you going to trade in the bugatti?  You could get 4 ripsaws. 

 

I live in a rural area with miles of off road trails and un maintained class 4 roads accessed from my house.The ripsaw is a bit overkill for my trails so the side by side utv does just fine.

 

These trading routes are used mainly by animals so lots of deer and black bears. The black bears keep stealing my trash cans and bring them into the woods for a bite to eat.

 

One night our cat brought us a present, a squirrel located right outside the front door which I stepped on .I picked it up and threw it of the deck hitting a deer in the yard by accident.

 

This week my sister was visiting staying in the downstairs bedroom and there was a baby brown bunny in here room from leaving the doors open. I could not believe she shut the door and went to sleep. She said to me A baby bunny is not going to hurt me.

 

I am going severely off topic but the influence of trading routes or trails around me have a direct impact it is just when the bears are on the deck that's not so cool with me.

[voidisyinyang]

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Okay ... I type in 'history of human rights ... first hit 

 

In 539 B.C., the armies of Cyrus the Great, the first king of ancient Persia, conquered the city of Babylon. But it was his next actions that marked a major advance for Man. He freed the slaves, declared that all people had the right to choose their own religion, and established racial equality. These and other decrees were recorded on a baked-clay cylinder in the Akkadian language with cuneiform script.

 

Known today as the Cyrus Cylinder, this ancient record has now been recognized as the world’s first charter of human rights. It is translated into all six official languages of the United Nations and its provisions parallel the first four Articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

The Spread of Human Rights

From Babylon, the idea of human rights spread quickly to India, Greece and eventually Rome. There the concept of “natural law” arose, in observation of the fact that people tended to follow certain unwritten laws in the course of life, and Roman law was based on rational ideas derived from the nature of things.

Documents asserting individual rights, such as the Magna Carta (1215), the Petition of Right (1628), the US Constitution (1787), the French Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (1789), and the US Bill of Rights (1791) are the written precursors to many of today’s human rights documents.

 

http://www.humanrights.com/what-are-human-rights/brief-history/

 

The 2nd hit was wiki which shows BOTH academic view points   ..... and it isnt THAT unusual for a subject, when looked at deeply for academics to argue about it  ... of course ;

 

" In opposition to the above viewpoint, the interpretation of the Cylinder as a "charter of human rights" has been dismissed by other historians and characterized by some others as political propaganda devised by the Pahlavi regime.^[8] The German historian Josef Wiesehöfer argues that the image of "Cyrus as a champion of the UN human rights policy ... is just as much a phantom as the humane and enlightened Shah of Persia",^[9] while historian Elton L. Daniel has described such an interpretation as "rather anachronistic" and tendentious.^[10] The cylinder now lies in the British Museum, and a replica is kept at the United Nations Headquarters. 

 

thats the part in wiki containing some criticism      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_human_rights

 

Text , where it SAYS what the rights are   ;     http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=327188&partId=1

 

But do we just fling academics conflicting views at each other ?   I suggest not, everything I have written does not come from running to the internet and googling  for an adverse opinion ... one has to look at the subject holistically , and I have to assume you have not, as earlier on, with many subjects here you didnt have a cue they exosted until you decoded to refute what I was saying.

 

Any hooz,  there is ither indicators  other than the Cyrus seal ... if they treared people well, the evidence should be in history , in the past ,  we need to find where it came from ... we can , the concept of Good Kingship ... its in the Avestas ... the evidence ? The release of the Jews and their support is one .   For the religious,  'it says so ! '   - in the BIble .

 

Historically ;  

 

Treatment of women ;

 

 " This section is dedicated to some of the most powerful women of Persia that never received the historical recognition they deserve due to passage of time and accidents of history. Women in Persia were very honored and revered, they often held very important & influential positions in the Courthouse, Ministries, Military, State and Treasury Department, and other official administrations. The significant role of women in Ancient Persia both horrified and fascinated the ancient Greek and Roman male-dominated societies. The fortification tablets at the Ruins of Persepolis also reveals that men and women were represented in identical professions and that they received equal payments as skilled laborers and that gender was not a criterion at all (unlike our modern world). New mothers and pregnant women even received wages far above those of their male co-workers in order to show appreciation. Women enjoyed a high level of gender equality before the imposition of the dark, backward, and pernicious Abrahamic ideologies (Judaism, Christianity, and especially Islam) after the barbaric Arab invasion upon Persia which destroyed our Equal rights, Freedom of speech and Freedom of religion and replaced those factors with central primitive brutal government, prejudice and slavery. There is much evidence that the principles of Zoroastrianism lay the core foundation to the first Declaration of Human Rights in the Persian Empire set by Cyrus the Great since the rulers of Persia were Zoroastrians and relatively liberal and progressive. "

 

http://www.persepolis.nu/

 

http://apranik.blogspot.com.au/2009/10/persian-female-warriors.html

 

Some of the first people that gave animals rights  ( again , it their law, in the Avestas ) 

 

http://www.animalsandsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/foltz.pdf

 

Religious toleration ; 

 

" Professor Richard Frye, a renowned expert in Iranian and Central Asian studies, notes that “[T]he figure of Cyrus has survived throughout history as more than a great man who founded an empire. He became the epitome of the great qualities expected of a ruler in antiquity, and he assumed heroic features as a conqueror who was tolerant and magnanimous as well as brave and daring. His personality as seen by the Greeks influenced them and Alexander the Great, and, as the tradition was transmitted by the Romans, may be considered to influence our thinking even now.”[8] " 

 

"  Cyrus introduced a different approach and attitude towards religious tolerance in the region.[12] Subsequent Achaemenid emperors, for example Cambyses and Darius, continued Cyrus’s policies and allowed the satrapies (provinces of the Achaemenid Empire) to maintain their own laws, and religious and cultural values. This religious tolerance proved to strengthen the political stability and success of the Achaemenid Empire. "

https://tavaana.org/en/content/cyrus-great-and-religious-tolerance

 

 

The Archaemenian kings are known to have been very pious Zoroastrians, trying to rule justly and in accordance with the Zoroastrian law of asha (truth and righteousness).

Carving from the ruins of Persepolis ©

Cyrus the Great was relatively liberal. While he himself ruled according to Zoroastrian beliefs, he made no attempt to impose Zoroastrianism on the people of his subject territories. The Jewsmost famously benefited from this; Cyrus permitted them to return to Jerusalem from exile in Babylon, and rebuild their temple. This act of kindness made a huge impact on Judaism. Zoroastrian philosophy powerfully influenced post-Exilic Judaism.

Darius the Great was famously pious and showed the same general tolerance for other faiths as his predecessor Cyrus. His piety is expressed in religious inscriptions left on his tomb.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/zoroastrian/history/persia_1.shtml

 

 

How Cyrus’ View of Religious Toleration May Have Inspired the American Constitution

http://blog.cyrusmehta.com/2013/07/how-cyrus-view-of-religious-toleration-may-have-inspired-the-american-constitution.html

 

Of course  some people argue about this ....   and some are academics ... they are allowed to have varied viewpoints .

 

BUT  that is how Cyrus is known and what he is famous for  .....  one cant really make the same argument for Genghis Khan, Stalin, or other leaders that are known for Intolerance .

 

Unless you are suggesting the  Cyrus pulled off the biggest propaganda scam in all of known history    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for posting a reply with evidence.

 

What I did is actually look at the link I provided from the history professor - he wrote a history of the Empire of Cyrus.

 

So he says that Cyrus did not practice any real Zoroastrian faith.

 

I realize you idealize Cyrus and his Aryans - but the overall context is one of warfare in the iron age.

 

So also you seem to gloss over the "Aryan Invasion" but I have already provided the evidence showing that there was a dramatic change after the chariots entered into the "Aryan homeland" that you idealize.

 

So then you say there is no proof that Harrapan is not Indo-European - but in fact the new DNA study of the skeletons is definitively not Indo-European. I already posted that evidence. The geneticists have already stated this is the case.

 

And the DNA evidence of the Aryan invasion of India is also well-documented.

 

So this is a Taoist website - Taoist is traced back in archaeology to over 4,400 BCE.

 

You want to idealize the iron age. Go ahead. That's your choice.

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiG8bDTl5PVAhUCQSYKHRFSAp8QFghOMAk&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbusiness-school.exeter.ac.uk%2Fdocuments%2Fpapers%2Fleadership%2F396.pdf&usg=AFQjCNExehjkQ0BFZQfUA3Ie50webzt-tg

 

Here is a legal Pdf analysis of Cyrus and human rights.

 

Basically it calls Cyrus a "transformative tyrant."

 

That is in contrast to the Law being the ruler of a land - not a divine person.

 

Now my view is to consider humans from the perspective of biology and ecology - and so I consider the last 10,000 years of humanity to not be idealized.

 

The original human culture did not have any warfare because every male was initiated into the complementary opposites resonance of reality as the truth - and so this enabled the lower emotions to be transcended.

 

We are told that such a choice is not feasible in our current day - going back to the debate of the ancient Greeks against Sparta vis a vis Cyrus.

 

So I did my master's thesis directly against the "natural law" that was inspired by Cyrus.

 

physis meant natural law by the Ancient Greeks - compared to written law.

 

So the Greeks argued, inspired by Cyrus, that is it "natural" to rule over whomever they can.

 

So I was inspired by a book called The Racial Contract which denounced this natural law - just as some racists today argue that slaves lived in better conditions - getting free housing and food, etc.

 

The book The Racial Contract was inspired by the book the Sexual Contract.

 

So Cyrus thought the Spartans were weak because they worshiped a women  - Helena.

 

So my point, based on http://peterkingsley.com is that in fact - the ancient Greeks since Plato, had changed the meaning of Physis - and did not really understand true natural law based on complementary opposites.

 

It may seem idealistic to reject history going back thousands of years but biologically modern humans have existed for 100,000 years at least.

 

So in my view the real Taoist training and real Pythagorean training is from an earlier time when there was no war fare, the San Bushmen culture.

 

You say Cyrus was known as a great humanitarian and then compare him to Stalin and Genghis Khan as not being great humanitarians. I consider that to be a false paradigm of comparison.

 

 

Quote

 

Genghis Khan was tolerant, kind to women – and a record-breaking ...

https://www.spectator.co.uk › Books

Jul 12, 2014 - A review of The Mongol Empire: Genghis Khan, His Heirs and the Founding of Modern China, by John Man. The Mongols made China, argues ...

 

 

 

So when you give evidence of Cyrus giving women rights - this is what I call "technofeminism" versus "ecofeminism."

 

The fact is Cyrus implemented massacres just like any other imperial warmonger. If you want to idealize that - and compare him to Stalin and Genghis Khan - it's a fake debate that has nothing to do with Taoism.

 

This is a Taoism website but a lot of people here just promote militarism, etc.

 

[Apech]

Anyone know what happened to the Harrapan Ancestry Project - have they mapped the DNA?  I can't find the results.

[Nungali]

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

Except that there is no real hard evidence that the Indus Valley Culture was Dravidian.

 

Thats right .  and thats why I wrote it in ( ... )   and  ' ..... '   ( so I didnt have to write ... what you just did .  ) 

 

Some Indian scholars will tell you they  were ALL   Dravidians   (then they start throwing copies of the Rig veda at each other  

 

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 I'm not saying it wasn't just we don't know it was.  The most frequently named river in the Rig Veda is the Saraswati and there is some evidence that this is a dried up river parallel to the Indus which dried up by 1900 BC pre-dating the nominal date of the Veda of 1200 BC (unless you are an Indian nationalist who give a much earlier date).

 

Now you are getting it !

 

As in most discipline if anyone wants to start a dispute ( I am not referring to you ) one can always find some paper or 'official' opinion that tries to show the opposite.

 

The 'river discussions' get REALLY complex !   OI !    and in the end , little is 'proved' 

 

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/aryans/location.htm#veh

 

http://historum.com/asian-history/128081-aryan-migration-theory-update-51.html

 

(Oh boy !  Is voidisyingyang gonna luv that last one !         ... considering his cultural confusions and all   )

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 

 So it is likely that the people who wrote the Rig Veda were in the Indus Valley when the IVC was still extant or they were (part of at least) the IVC.

 

The  Upper Indus  ( 'system' ) was listed as nation 15 in the Vendidad - 'Hapta Hindu .   It would not seem unusual to have contact  with those down river . Also there is nation 13 - 'Chakrem'  a bit 'lower down ' ?  Yet its location is uncertain, some say Gazni, SE Afghanistan or others , even north Iran . They were known to be 'corpse burners' .. this signifies a variation from the latter Zoroastrian practice of not burning .

 

And there is that 'IVC  trading post' over the Kush and into the Oxus headwater.   Like I said previously, I am postulating  different groups associated by different things , they might have been joined by trade, or cultural similarities.

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

As you suggest there is (I think) some evidence that the area now known as Afghanistan was a continuous trading route from the earliest times allowing movement of people form North India to and from Iran and so on.

 

Thing is ,  even the  ' first people '   got to the places they did , somehow ... eg China .

 

Do some people think no one ever continued to travel those routes  from the paleolithic onwards ? 

 

13 hours ago, Apech said:

 

 I would suggest there was a percolation of peoples from the time when the IVC was at its height - from then on at least.

 

 

 

I really recommend the UNESCO funded History Central Asia - Vol 1  'The Dawn of Civilisation'  , its a real eye opener ! 

 

 

 

 

[Nungali]

11 hours ago, Marblehead said:

And you can have one for only 1.7 mil.

 

 

A guy at work ( film industry ) made heaps of money one year .... and stupidly went out and bought a Hummer .

 

Then he realises there is no spare tyre, so he goes off at the distributer ....   but they tell him he doesnt need one. But he insists he must have one and gets it and pays over 1G for it      

 

Then someone else that owned one  tells him he didnt need it .     

[Marblehead]

Good thing he didn't buy a large luxury boat.  He probably would have wanted a spare motor.

 

[Nungali]

10 hours ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Thats a superior price are you going to trade in the bugatti?  You could get 4 ripsaws. 

 

I live in a rural area with miles of off road trails and un maintained class 4 roads accessed from my house.The ripsaw is a bit overkill for my trails so the side by side utv does just fine.

 

These trading routes are used mainly by animals so lots of deer and black bears. The black bears keep stealing my trash cans and bring them into the woods for a bite to eat.

 

One night our cat brought us a present, a squirrel located right outside the front door which I stepped on .I picked it up and threw it of the deck hitting a deer in the yard by accident.

 

This week my sister was visiting staying in the downstairs bedroom and there was a baby brown bunny in here room from leaving the doors open. I could not believe she shut the door and went to sleep. She said to me A baby bunny is not going to hurt me.

 

I am going severely off topic but the influence of trading routes or trails around me have a direct impact it is just when the bears are on the deck that's not so cool with me.

 

I just cannot fathom that ! 

 

Visitors from USA to here got spooked ; poisonous snakes ,,, spiders ... even got giant stinging trees ... whats going on ! 

 

Me;  " Well, at least I dont have to take a shotgun with me when I go up to the outhouse ! "  ... If a bear even leaned on a  door  or windows on my cabin  , he'd come crashing through ! 

[Marblehead]

But you don't even have any bears down there.

 

[Nungali]

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Thanks for posting a reply with evidence.

 

What I did is actually look at the link I provided from the history professor - he wrote a history of the Empire of Cyrus.

 

So he says that Cyrus did not practice any real Zoroastrian faith.

 

Oh, that view is common knowledge !     We could get into another long debate about that one .  he DID appear to  practice the Zoroastrian principle of 'Good Kingship ' though    

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

I realize you idealize Cyrus and his Aryans - but the overall context is one of warfare in the iron age.

 

Ummmm   .... the 'overall concept '  of  everywhere / when is STILL warfare !

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

So also you seem to gloss over the "Aryan Invasion" but I have already provided the evidence showing that there was a dramatic change after the chariots entered into the "Aryan homeland" that you idealize.

 

Cut the silly inferences ,   and   the 'invasion' was thrown out by scholars long ago   ... this is they way you 'operate' ;

 

You say I gloss over the invasion      then you say there is evidence for 'change when they entered ' 

 

yes, there was 'change when they entered ' as there is some evidence of that, but there is not evidence of an 'invasion' 

 

You have constantly used these tactics throughout many pages in an attempt to discredit me .   Whatever .

 

I must say it is probably tedious for many , who are interested in the subject to have to wade through or avoid all of your tactics, bluffs  blinds  genetics (that were not even part of my considerations , which I co and others continually point out .

 

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

So then you say there is no proof that Harrapan is not Indo-European

 

and this tactic of NOT posting a quote of what I did say, but you forming it out of your own words and changing it so you can argue against it  .... continually ! 

 

And when I bought this up last time a 'quote' appeared  from 'me '  yet had no time and date stamp on it . 

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

- but in fact the new DNA study of the skeletons is definitively not Indo-European. I already posted that evidence. The geneticists have already stated this is the case.

 

And the DNA evidence of the Aryan invasion of India is also well-documented.

 

D N A   evidence of an invasion  ?   

 

I dont think you really know what you talking about  ! 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

So this is a Taoist website - Taoist is traced back in archaeology to over 4,400 BCE.

 

You want to idealize the iron age. Go ahead. That's your choice.

 

Mate , I dont even know what you are on about anymore .   

 

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiG8bDTl5PVAhUCQSYKHRFSAp8QFghOMAk&url=https%3A%2F%2Fbusiness-school.exeter.ac.uk%2Fdocuments%2Fpapers%2Fleadership%2F396.pdf&usg=AFQjCNExehjkQ0BFZQfUA3Ie50webzt-tg

 

Here is a legal Pdf analysis of Cyrus and human rights.

 

Basically it calls Cyrus a "transformative tyrant."

 

That is in contrast to the Law being the ruler of a land - not a divine person.

 

Who  here  said he ever was  ???  

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Now my view is to consider humans from the perspective of biology and ecology - and so I consider the last 10,000 years of humanity to not be idealized.

 

The original human culture did not have any warfare because every male was initiated into the complementary opposites resonance of reality as the truth - and so this enabled the lower emotions to be transcended.

 

and you say I wrote idealised rubbish ! 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

We are told that such a choice is not feasible in our current day - going back to the debate of the ancient Greeks against Sparta vis a vis Cyrus.

 

So I did my master's thesis directly against the "natural law" that was inspired by Cyrus.

 

physis meant natural law by the Ancient Greeks - compared to written law.

 

So the Greeks argued, inspired by Cyrus, that is it "natural" to rule over whomever they can.

 

and Plato argued against rule by force and might being right , he was Greek wasnt he ?  

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

So I was inspired by a book called The Racial Contract which denounced this natural law - just as some racists today argue that slaves lived in better conditions - getting free housing and food, etc.

 

The book The Racial Contract was inspired by the book the Sexual Contract.

 

So Cyrus thought the Spartans were weak because they worshiped a women  - Helena.

 

So my point, based on http://peterkingsley.com is that in fact - the ancient Greeks since Plato, had changed the meaning of Physis - and did not really understand true natural law based on complementary opposites.

 

It may seem idealistic to reject history going back thousands of years but biologically modern humans have existed for 100,000 years at least.

 

So in my view the real Taoist training and real Pythagorean training is from an earlier time when there was no war fare, the San Bushmen culture.

 

Ohhh ... you idolise them and fop over them dont you  ?   ... just Like I apparently 'idolise' Cyrus    

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

You say Cyrus was known as a great humanitarian and then compare him to Stalin and Genghis Khan as not being great humanitarians. I consider that to be a false paradigm of comparison.

 

 

 More quoting with non quotes  ... ho-hum .

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

So when you give evidence of Cyrus giving women rights - this is what I call "technofeminism" versus "ecofeminism."

 

And that   ^  is what I call 'muddying the waters '  

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

The fact is Cyrus implemented massacres just like any other imperial warmonger. If you want to idealize that - and compare him to Stalin and Genghis Khan - it's a fake debate that has nothing to do with Taoism.

 

Okay  then  ... I stand guilty of saying things that have nothing to do with Taoism  

 

 

 

 

 

6 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

This is a Taoism website but a lot of people here just promote militarism, etc.

 

 

Well is it now ?   Funny how it has areas of subjects that are NOT daoism ... maybe you shut down all converse here that is not Taoism ?  

 

Put in a request to the mods about that  and see how you go       

 

PS  I also put up here a picture of a non taoist Triumph Bonneville   

 

Please accept my apologies   and instead , you can view this 

 

 

Jialing X-Fire

 

[Nungali]

39 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

But you don't even have any bears down there.

 

 

yeah ..... that was my point  ...       .

 

They worried about snakes and spiders when they come here , yet they have bears at home !  

 

UNless  ......  

 

Spoiler

 

But no 'bears'   .... thats why cabin is built the way it is and has the doors open most of the time when warm . 

 

Maybe bird will come in , or a goanna 

 

 

 

" Lemmie in !  I need the stove to make rabbit stew !  "

Edited July 18, 2017 by Nungali

[Marblehead]

And after all, the Koala is related to the Tasmanian Devil.