Stream entry, pleasant feeling

[shortstuff]

Trying to do this at this stage of my meditation now. At present I focus on the breathe for a few mins then I just sit in the darkness with no thought...I don't seem to get anything from it during or after anymore. So time to move on to the first Jhana.

 

Quote

     As far as I have been able to determine, based on my own experience, the entry into the first Jhana from a physiological perspective proceeds something like this:

              1. You quiet your mind with the initial and sustained attention to the meditation subject. I suspect that brain wave activity shows a noticable decrease during Access Concentration.

              2. By shifting your attention to a pleasant sensation, you set up a positive reinforcement feedback loop within your quiet mind. For example, one of the most useful pleasant sensations to focus on is a smile. The act of smiling generates endorphins, which make you feel good, which makes you smile more, which generates more endorphins, etc.

              3. The final and most difficult part of entering the First Jhana is to not do anything but observe the pleasure. Any attempt to increase the pleasure, even any thoughts of wanting to increase the pleasure, interrupt the feedback loop and drop you into a less quiet state of mind. But by doing nothing but focusing intently on the pleasure, you are propelled into an unmistakably altered state of consciousness.

I wish to ask those who have experienced this - what is meant by a pleasant sensation. For example their example of the smile - do they mean making yourself smile? Or just thinking of the sensation of happiness that occurs when you smile - because a smile is automatic like breathing is - how do you observe the pleasure if you are concentrated on creating it? Should you sit there smiling with your eyes closed? When I smile by forcing the muscles etc I feel nothing...

 

I figure it might be easier for me to concentrate on the pleasure one experiences through orgasm?

And if you are consciously thinking of an experience then how can you be an observer without "any attempt to increase the pleasure" if you are creating the pleasure in the first place just to observe it?

I will add that in the 3 years I have been on the path, I have never had any moments of bliss, kundalini or otherwise, in any of my sessions. I have had moments of happiness in life realising how I was mindful of X emotion but never the bliss people speak of.

 

I will also add that I feel that mind wise I am pretty far down the path, I observe my thought processes almost automatically now before they happen, I can feel ego react and the anger produce chemicals and stop it before it happens... so even if I never get to "stream entry" or "enlightenment" I have improved my life and the life of those around me. Which I am very thankful for.

I will also add that I don't get any kundalini energy at all, none of that electricity feeling etc. It is very wierd reading 100's of thousands of peoples experiences even during their first time meditating and not being able to relate.

 

Thank you

[CedarTree]

39 minutes ago, shortstuff said:

Trying to do this at this stage of my meditation now. At present I focus on the breathe for a few mins then I just sit in the darkness with no thought...I don't seem to get anything from it during or after anymore. So time to move on to the first Jhana.

 

I wish to ask those who have experienced this - what is meant by a pleasant sensation. For example their example of the smile - do they mean making yourself smile? Or just thinking of the sensation of happiness that occurs when you smile - because a smile is automatic like breathing is - how do you observe the pleasure if you are concentrated on creating it? Should you sit there smiling with your eyes closed? When I smile by forcing the muscles etc I feel nothing...

 

I figure it might be easier for me to concentrate on the pleasure one experiences through orgasm?

And if you are consciously thinking of an experience then how can you be an observer without "any attempt to increase the pleasure" if you are creating the pleasure in the first place just to observe it?

I will add that in the 3 years I have been on the path, I have never had any moments of bliss, kundalini or otherwise, in any of my sessions. I have had moments of happiness in life realising how I was mindful of X emotion but never the bliss people speak of.

 

I will also add that I feel that mind wise I am pretty far down the path, I observe my thought processes almost automatically now before they happen, I can feel ego react and the anger produce chemicals and stop it before it happens... so even if I never get to "stream entry" or "enlightenment" I have improved my life and the life of those around me. Which I am very thankful for.

I will also add that I don't get any kundalini energy at all, none of that electricity feeling etc. It is very wierd reading 100's of thousands of peoples experiences even during their first time meditating and not being able to relate.

 

Thank you

 

I have practiced in the Theravada school where Jhana is very commonly referred to.  I think the method you described has some points that sound very traditional for Jhana entry and some points that are very far off base.

 

Have you heard of Ajahn Brahm, Bhante Henepola Gunaratana, or Ayya Khema?  If not I could detail some methods for you.  If you like.

[Aetherous]

When we hear the word "bliss" it can be misleading...we imagine something that it's not. Something more intense, like the pleasure of an orgasm.

What bliss actually is, is the sense of elation you feel when focusing on the breath and taking gentle even breaths. That slight uplifting feeling.

Whatever feeling that is when you breathe, or even in moments when you're having no troubles in life, is the beginning of bliss. It's simply your natural state when obscured by problems...breathing helps our minds let go of problems, so we get a taste of it again through the practice.

So instead of looking for your idea of what bliss is, just look for the subtle sensation of elation...the sense of being alive. Everyone feels it...don't let words mislead you away from what you already feel.

[doc benway]

17 hours ago, shortstuff said:

Trying to do this at this stage of my meditation now. At present I focus on the breathe for a few mins then I just sit in the darkness with no thought...I don't seem to get anything from it during or after anymore. So time to move on to the first Jhana.

 

I wish to ask those who have experienced this - what is meant by a pleasant sensation. For example their example of the smile - do they mean making yourself smile? Or just thinking of the sensation of happiness that occurs when you smile - because a smile is automatic like breathing is - how do you observe the pleasure if you are concentrated on creating it? Should you sit there smiling with your eyes closed? When I smile by forcing the muscles etc I feel nothing...

 

If you are making yourself smile, or do anything else, that is not it.

You cannot do anything to experience it. 

You can't make it happen because you are the obstacle.

It is what there is when you let everything go completely and just rest as you are at this very moment. 

 

If we allow ourselves to fully rest in the connection to what is presenting itself to the senses and mind at this very moment, provided it remains completely unfabricated, there arises a feeling of comfort, refuge, support, absence of judgement, instant presence, openness, spaciousness... so many descriptors, all of which are not it. A feeling of non-separation, of boundlessness, eventually arises. This is the non-duality of space and awareness which is the "source" of the warmth you are looking for. It is very subtle at first but over time we can rest more and more deeply into its embrace. Eventually we can even experience that when engaged in normal day to day activity - that takes it to another level. We can even bring that into our sleep and dreams with practice, and to our death.

 

 

17 hours ago, shortstuff said:

 

I figure it might be easier for me to concentrate on the pleasure one experiences through orgasm?

And if you are consciously thinking of an experience then how can you be an observer without "any attempt to increase the pleasure" if you are creating the pleasure in the first place just to observe it?

I will add that in the 3 years I have been on the path, I have never had any moments of bliss, kundalini or otherwise, in any of my sessions. I have had moments of happiness in life realising how I was mindful of X emotion but never the bliss people speak of.

 

I will also add that I feel that mind wise I am pretty far down the path, I observe my thought processes almost automatically now before they happen, I can feel ego react and the anger produce chemicals and stop it before it happens... so even if I never get to "stream entry" or "enlightenment" I have improved my life and the life of those around me. Which I am very thankful for.

I will also add that I don't get any kundalini energy at all, none of that electricity feeling etc. It is very wierd reading 100's of thousands of peoples experiences even during their first time meditating and not being able to relate.

 

Thank you

 

Do not create - let go and allow.

Do not concentrate on an experience you imagine could be comparable to bliss, that is not it.

If you are on the path and have not yet felt what I am talking about, you are still getting in your own way.

It is right there waiting for you as Aetherous describes.

 

You speak of observing the thought process and stopping emotion before it happens.

Don't stop it - allow it to arise, allow it to be there in your experience, and if you do not engage it will naturally liberate.

When it liberates, that is the moment of resting in unfabricated being.

The one who pushes away emotion, the one who observes the process of thought, that one is getting in the way.

Let that one rest.

 

Most importantly - don't concern yourself with other peoples' stories of their experiences. 

It is of very little value, in my opinion.

It is far more likely to hinder than to help most people.

Far better to rest the one who is concerned with the lack of progress, if that one can relax you may see something new, something fresh, something totally uncontrived.

 

 

 

[C T]

Bodhidharma said a truly awake person finds that the inner sense, or knowing of freedom's 'taste' -- this realisation if you may, remains the same both in fortunate or unfortunate circumstances. When such a constancy can be maintained, even in sleep, then it is the bliss as understood where Buddhist practice is concerned. 

[SeekerOfHealing]

Those informations are false. If you want to enter jhanas quickly follow Bhante Vimaralamsi and you will understand what you are missing. 

[Seeker of Wisdom]

On 7/4/2017 at 1:13 AM, shortstuff said:

[...] I wish to ask those who have experienced this - what is meant by a pleasant sensation. For example their example of the smile - do they mean making yourself smile? Or just thinking of the sensation of happiness that occurs when you smile - because a smile is automatic like breathing is - how do you observe the pleasure if you are concentrated on creating it? Should you sit there smiling with your eyes closed? When I smile by forcing the muscles etc I feel nothing...

 

I figure it might be easier for me to concentrate on the pleasure one experiences through orgasm?

And if you are consciously thinking of an experience then how can you be an observer without "any attempt to increase the pleasure" if you are creating the pleasure in the first place just to observe it?
 

[...]

 

Hi there! It sounds like you're following the method of Leigh Brasington? Personally I've found his method very helpful and have entered first jhana as he teaches it*. if you haven't read his book 'Right Concentration', I would definitely advise you to do so.

 

(*Some people disagree with his methods and/or state that what he teaches is not 'true' jhana. This debate is essentially the debate between 'sutta jhana' and 'visuddhimagga jhana', which has been going on for a thousand years and will not be resolved in this thread, so I'll just say that I think Brasington is a good guide for some very useful attainments and leave it at that.)

 

From the title of this thread you seem to be conflating the jhanas with stream entry a bit. One can be a master of the jhanas and not be a stream entrant, not be trying to become a stream entrant, have no idea that stream entry is a thing.

 

The pleasure one experiences in access concentration does not come about from thinking of an experience or from trying to create pleasure! Brasington mentions that some people may find that smiling helps them to tune in to the pleasure. If you don't find this helpful, don't do it. Pleasure will come about as a natural result of access concentration, with your mind being calm and clear and settled. Once you have access concentration, nothing else is needed to cause pleasure to come - in fact, trying to cause it will push it away. Why? Because then you're not resting your focus on an object without clinging. If you're trying to get something, your mind won't be calm/clear/settled so the pleasure won't come.

 

The pleasure of access concentration is mild but noticeable (you won't be in doubt about it). The mental pleasure is a peace and happiness sort of like waking up on a sunny Sunday morning. The physical sensation can vary but is basically a nice energetic sensation - nothing mind-blowing. To enter the first jhana, stop watching the breath and instead watch the pleasure - just watch it like you watched the breath, don't try to increase it or manipulate it. It will pick up and take you into the first jhana, which is like access concentration but with deeper focus, and rapture and joy (stronger forms of the access concentration pleasure). This is very pleasant and obvious, though perhaps not as dramatic as you may be imagining it.

 

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At present I focus on the breathe for a few mins then I just sit in the darkness with no thought

 

What is the 'darkness with no thought'? Are you sure there's absolutely no thought? For how long can you sustain this? It sounds like you might be suppressing your thoughts, using a very forceful type of concentration - if this is the case, you really need to loosen up. Relax. Soak into the breath, watch it come in and out, whenever you're distracted don't clench down or push away anything, instead gently let go and return to the breath. 

 

I'm sure you'll be able to enter access concentration and the first jhana. I managed it after ~6 years, so don't worry that you aren't there yet after 3. In fact, don't worry too much about the attainment. Go into each session with an attitude of beginner's mind.

Edited July 7, 2017 by Seeker of Wisdom

[taoguy]

On 7/5/2017 at 7:40 AM, SeekerOfHealing said:

Those informations are false. If you want to enter jhanas quickly follow Bhante Vimaralamsi and you will understand what you are missing. 

 

I wouldn't say it's completely false, more of the primary step.

 

I believe concentration practices to be the first step, just that they should not be focused on as the ultimate practice (which is Hinayana practice). In my perspective, I feel like concentration is essential to shake-off drowsiness and torpor, so that the mind starts to settle without agitation. For example, if we do too much emptiness meditation, sometimes the mind goes into a state of scattered-ness or oblivion like in sleep, ending up in cultivation of samadhi of oblivion like mindless animals.

 

We also focus on the calming of agitations, particularly body (as Bhante V says in his Relax step). I believe Nan Huai Jin also says the loosening of the body in the White Skeleton Visualisation or Foulness Visualisation is along with the visualisation of the bones. Therefore we can equate this to relaxation (calming tensed up muscles and organs) along with concentration on object.

 

Once we reach the state of stillness within like 5-10 minutes without any thoughts spontaneously rising that much, we move towards non-object meditation or spatial meditation, such as an abstract idea like space or metta or cessation of breath or gaps between mantra words. In White Skeleton, this is known as the 'scattering into space' or 'abandoning the internal organs to become a hollow shell'.

 

Eventually we become one with the functioning of "space" itself (Mahayana meditation) - where the stream of object or non-object becomes the actual meditation object. Sound and silence - light and dark - motion and stillness - form and emptiness - awake and asleep -are perceived as one-taste. In White Skeleton this is merging with the universe itself.

 

One thing worth noting is that Zen master Nan Huai Jin teaches that you can literally see internal light when doing the visualisations to a high level. This also corresponds to the idea of nimitta found in other buddhist literature, or the Taoist idea of 'original cavity light' or shen as light itself. This happens during the concentration period. 

 

My guess is that if someone has not much base in the concentration part, then doing the 6Rs in Bhante V meditation can be cyclical or going in circles because they haven't developed enough "staying power" in samadhi (mastery of samadhi includes entering, staying, leaving at will). In Tian-tai breath-meditation, this is known as the step of 'counting' or 'following'. Of course this then leads on to the other steps like 'shamatha/cessation' and so on.

 

Tldr:

 

1. Concentration on distinct object (four elements like wind, earth, fire, water)

2. Steadiness in abstract object (like space or voidness) - Comes with light as well since the four elements glow as auras.

[IMO, this is the elder monk's gatha on polishing the mirror to keep it clean.]

3. Unified with distinctness and abstractness, taking the entire stream as the object (established within consciousness itself)

[IMO, this is the stage of Hui-Neng where he says there is no mirror to clean and mind is naturally clean and pure. Possibly the stage of Zen, Dzogchen and Mahamudra as well... maybe.]

 

Just disclaiming all of this is pieced together by my own perspective, so take it as a grain of salt. Would be great to have verification though.

Edited July 7, 2017 by taoguy