Life and Death

[CedarTree]

How would a Daoist delve into the ideas of life and death?  What do those terms mean in a Daoist sense/framework.

 

Thank you for sharing your wisdom

[thelerner]

my take,

Daoist seeks harmony with nature.  Using skillful (from taoist alchemy, qi gung, simple diet) means they enjoy and enhance there life.  Living now, death is less relevant.   Maybe a few obsess over 'immortality' but I think most accept death as part of life.  Cultural baggage (including religious Taoism) may influence there thoughts on what happens after death but being focused on the here and now, being at peace, death is less relevant. 

[CedarTree]

Would you say that Daoism in today's world is a "neo-Daoism".  A view point more concerned around health and vibrant expression?  I think from what I have seen of posts and such that could be true but that I am almost missing some valuable dimensions and aspects to be added to that understanding.

 

You seem to be a heavy poster in this forum and I am guessing quite knowledgeable, could you expand a bit

[Marblehead]

Life and death.  Cycles.  Reversion.  Tzujan.

 

We see the cycles of life and death throughout the universe.  This process applies to all of the Ten Thousand Things.

 

 

[RiverSnake]

Personally i'd meditate on the process of the spirit leaving the body and the seasons of life. 

Edited July 4, 2017 by OldSaint

[thelerner]

14 hours ago, CedarTree said:

Would you say that Daoism in today's world is a "neo-Daoism".  A view point more concerned around health and vibrant expression?  I think from what I have seen of posts and such that could be true but that I am almost missing some valuable dimensions and aspects to be added to that understanding.

 

You seem to be a heavy poster in this forum and I am guessing quite knowledgeable, could you expand a bit

, lets not confuse heavy posting with knowledge.  Still, the West if filled with philosophical "taoists", those influences by pieces of Taoist philosophy and focus on them.  Such people would not be considered Taoists in China.  We lose depth, but escape cultural dogmatism. 

 

Maybe to find what you're missing you need to dig deep.  Start reading Thomas Cleary's translations of The Taoist Classics https://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Classics-Collected-Translations-Shambhala/dp/1570629056/ref=la_B000AP6ZLI_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499183803&sr=1-7.  These books are cheap, get you closer to the source, and provide the bread crumbs that you're looking for. 

[CedarTree]

14 hours ago, OldSaint said:

Personally i'd meditate on the process of the spirit leaving the body and the seasons of life. 

 

Old Saint, So Daoists would believe in a Spirit?  And can you expand on how you view the seasons of life.

[CedarTree]

9 hours ago, thelerner said:

, lets not confuse heavy posting with knowledge.  Still, the West if filled with philosophical "taoists", those influences by pieces of Taoist philosophy and focus on them.  Such people would not be considered Taoists in China.  We lose depth, but escape cultural dogmatism. 

 

Maybe to find what you're missing you need to dig deep.  Start reading Thomas Cleary's translations of The Taoist Classics https://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Classics-Collected-Translations-Shambhala/dp/1570629056/ref=la_B000AP6ZLI_1_7?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1499183803&sr=1-7.  These books are cheap, get you closer to the source, and provide the bread crumbs that you're looking for. 

 

Thank you for the resources, I will stick to my view that you are a wise soul

[RiverSnake]

9 hours ago, CedarTree said:

 

Old Saint, So Daoists would believe in a Spirit?  And can you expand on how you view the seasons of life.

 

Taoists are quite friendly to the idea of reincarnation and the idea of an eternal deathless soul. Taoism emphasizes harmonizing oneself with nature and it's cycles. So looking at the life of the human being: Birth, Youth, Young Adulthood, Middle Age, Old Age and Death of the body. 

 

Examine the natural cycle of things: The Seasons, the stars and planets, the biorhythms of the body, migration of animals...etc. It's thought that in Taoism when we harmonize our internal nature (internal Tao) with the greater nature that exists around us then we can live effortless yet fruitful lives. Kind of like always sailing with the wind at your back....but in the sense of subtle energies.... moving in the cosmic flow of things. 

Edited July 5, 2017 by OldSaint

[Marblehead]

8 hours ago, OldSaint said:

 

Taoists are quite friendly to the idea of reincarnation and the idea of an eternal deathless soul ...

Except for Marblehead but his opinion doesn't count here.

 

[CedarTree]

13 hours ago, OldSaint said:

 

Taoists are quite friendly to the idea of reincarnation and the idea of an eternal deathless soul. Taoism emphasizes harmonizing oneself with nature and it's cycles. So looking at the life of the human being: Birth, Youth, Young Adulthood, Middle Age, Old Age and Death of the body. 

 

Examine the natural cycle of things: The Seasons, the stars and planets, the biorhythms of the body, migration of animals...etc. It's thought that in Taoism when we harmonize our internal nature (internal Tao) with the greater nature that exists around us then we can live effortless yet fruitful lives. Kind of like always sailing with the wind at your back....but in the sense of subtle energies.... moving in the cosmic flow of things. 

 

This sounds very close to our practice in Soto Zen:

 

Shoryu Bradley of Gyobutsuji Zen Monastery in the United States had a good write up of why he chose the name for his monastery and it seems very close to how you describe Dao practice

 

   The inspiration for Gyobutsuji's name is found in Eihei Dogen Zenji's Shobogenzo Gyobutsu Igi (True Dharma Eye Treasury: Dignified Behavior of Practice Buddha):

     All buddhas without exception fully practice dignified conduct: this [practice] is Practice Buddha.  [...] Sharing one corner of the Buddha's dignified conduct is done together with the entire universe, the great earth, and with the entire coming-and-going of life-and-death.  [...] This is nothing other than the dignified conduct of the oneness of Practice and Buddha.

     Rather than a means for individual spiritual attainment, practice at Gyobutsuji is approached as the actualization of boundless "truth", done together with "all things".  It is in this actualization, this sincere practice of the present moment, that we are released from suffering.  Dogen Zenji expressed this attitude in Gyobutsu Igi by presenting genuine practice as the universal buddha he called "Practice Buddha"(Gyobutsu).  At Gyobutsuji we aspire to honor our practice as Practice Buddha, the boundless "reality" beyond concepts of self and other, existence and nonexistence, and time and space. Practice at Gyobutsuji is the actualization of our trust that genuine practice is the greatest offering we can make to ourselves and to the whole of life.

     At this time, earth, grasses and trees, fences and walls, tiles and pebbles, all things in the dharma realm in ten directions, carry out buddha work. Therefore, everyone receives the benefit of wind and water movement caused by this functioning, and all are imperceptibly helped by the wondrous and incomprehensible influence of Buddha to actualize the enlightenment at hand.  — Dogen Zenji in Bendowa (Wholehearted Practice of the Way)

     It is through this practice of universal offering that we find our individual paths.  Personal development through study, work practice, interpersonal interactions and meditation, allows us to nurture our vow to awaken to universal life as we allow it to blossom through our individual activities.

 

 

Old Saint:  Could you explain a bit more about how Daoists perceive or think about this eternal deathless soul?  Thank you friend.

[CedarTree]

4 hours ago, Marblehead said:

Except for Marblehead but his opinion doesn't count here.

 

Lol this made me laugh,

 

You can share too!

[RiverSnake]

In some sense life and death do not exist (according to Taoists) as distinct divides.....rather just different stages of a process of transformation (different sides of the same wheel). Just as there are seasons and cycles in life there are so in death. Life flows into death and vice versa. 

 

To put it simply, the Tao is eternal....and you are part of the Tao and therefore go on riding the wheel.  

 

There are many different folk and cultural beliefs surrounding Death and the Soul in Taoism....but i am not an expert on those things. Sorry to be so ambiguous, but Taoists seem to prefer a certain amount of ambiguity when it comes to the unknown season of existence. They choose to focus on life and making the best of it and flowing from one state into another without being overly fretful about this natural cycle. 

 

Taoists are often more concerned with flow and wisdom than strict intellectual methods, stages and "defining" things. Alan Watts has some good videos online about Taoism. 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2017 by OldSaint