voidisyinyang Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) http://en.people.cn/english/200004/29/eng20000429_40001.html So - http://donlehmanjr.com/China/china chapters/china book2/china26.htm#_edn19 That site cites an Art historian claiming Southeast Asian crocodiles as the source of Chinese dragons. So I investigated this claim - and it turns out - ..... that crocodiles actually lived by the Yellow River around 4400 BCE when the Yangshao used dragons and tigers for Taoist alchemy symbols of yin and yang. Quote t the crocodile is the prototype of the dragon, a sacred, mythical animal which has long been a symbol of the Chinese nation. Their conclusion was based on research of the earliest image of the Chinese dragon, which was formed out of clam shells about 6, 400 years ago. Archeologists unearthed the sculpture in 1987 in an ancient tomb in the Yangshao relics in Puyang city, Henan Province. So we can see the ancient Taoist origins - so the below is a 4000 BCE burial also at Puyang: Quote Burial site of Yangshao culture features a depiction believed to be an ancient cosmogram depicting the round Heaven and the square Earth. https://books.google.com/books?id=aCTHIbK43sUC&pg=PA429&lpg=PA429&dq=crocodile+is+yangshao+dragon&source=bl&ots=jYPHzdPDcP&sig=QZfWnBxSfcX581GBjy5TIgkYHfc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjljr7J9e7UAhWpjFQKHX7xASEQ6AEINDAC#v=onepage&q=crocodile is yangshao dragon&f=false An ancient giant species of crocodile.... Quote Records for the saltwater crocodile in China come primarily from the Han Dynasty (206 .. https://books.google.com/books?id=PRgxX4F4wH0C&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=Crocodylus+porosus+china+dragon&source=bl&ots=eCUBmzjjJc&sig=qrGiQkS4S85i1E_sAcFn5SVK9Kk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjk_v7K-O7UAhVGxVQKHb6MCzkQ6AEIJDAA#v=onepage&q=Crocodylus porosus china dragon&f=false So there is also an alligator in southern China... So I guess the dragon does look like a crocodile. Quote The association with the crocodile is also supported by the view in ancient times that large crocodiles are a variety of dragon. For example, in the Story of Zhou Chu, about the life of a Jin Dynasty warrior, he is said to have killed a "dragon" that infested the waters of his home village, which appears to have been a crocodile. Quote The earliest depiction of dragons was found at Xinglongwa culture sites. Yangshao culture sites in Xi'an have produced clay pots with dragon motifs. http://dragon-mythicalcreature.page.tl/Chinese-dragon.htm The thing about this burial dragon - is that the dragon is "east" while the tiger is west - this is very specific to Taoist Alchemy - and yet it is from how far back.... Quote dates to about 6460 years ago. So - 4400 BCE approximately. Amazing. Also around the same time period is the square earth and round heaven depiction. Quote The commentary of Guo Pu glosses hujiao as "a type of [long 龍] dragon that resembles a four-legged snake." The "Classic of Central Mountains" (5, tr. Birrell 2000:93, 97) records jiao in the Kuang River 貺水 and Lun River 淪水: "There are numerous alligators in the River Grant" and "The River Ripple contains numbers of alligators". Guo adds that the jiao "has a small head, narrow neck, white scales, is oviparous, can grow up to ten meters long, and eats people." Wolfram Eberhard (1968:378) quotes the (11th century CE) Moke huixi 墨客揮犀 for the "best definition" of a jiao, "looks like a snake with a tiger head, is several fathoms long, lives in brooks and rivers, and bellows like a bull; when it sees a human being it traps him with its stinking saliva, then pulls him into the water and sucks his blood from his armpits." He concludes (1968:378-9) that the jiao, which "occur in the whole of Central and South China", "is a special form of the snake as river god. The snake as river god or god of the ocean is typical for the coastal culture, particularly the sub-group of the Tan peoples." Jiao 蛟 is sometimes translated as "flood dragon". The (c. 1105 CE) Yuhu qinghua 玉壺清話 (Carr 1990:128) says people in the southern state of Wu called it fahong 發洪 "swell into a flood" because they believed flooding resulted when jiao hatched. The Chuci (13, tr. Hawkes 1985:255) uses the term shuijiao 水蛟 "water jiao": "Henceforth the water-serpents must be my companions, And dragon-spirits lie with me when I would rest." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiaolong Quote Besides a legendary dragon, jiao and jiaolong anciently named a four-legged water creature, identified as both "alligator" and "crocodile". The "Dragons and Snakes" section of the (1578 CE) Bencao Gangmu, which is a comprehensive Chinese materia medica, differentiates (tr. Read 1934:314-318) between jiaolong 蛟龍 (or e 鱷) "Saltwater Crocodile, Crocodylus porosus" and tolong 鼉龍 "Chinese Alligator, Alligator sinensis". Most early references describe the jiaolong as living in rivers, which fits not only this freshwater "Chinese alligator" but also the "Saltwater crocodile" that spends the tropical wet season in freshwater rivers and swamps. Comparing maximum lengths of 8 and 1.5 meters for this crocodile and alligator respectively, "Saltwater crocodile" seems more consistent with descriptions of jiao reaching lengths of several zhang 丈 "approximately 3.3 meters". So what is fascinating about this is that in Egyptian Alchemy - the power of the crocodile is absorbed - which is to mean celibacy - and so this is the same in Taoism - the dragon is the crocodile. Amazing synchronicity - or maybe some ancient African connection? Edited July 4, 2017 by voidisyinyang 4 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) Quote The crocodile, the alchemical serpens, in this context symbolizes the realization of the unity of material and spiritual ascent. To pull the mystery in a couple of other directions, the body of Osiris is often depicted on the back of a crocodile. Sobek, the Egyptian crocodile god cures ills. I can't find any proof for this but someone mentions this in a blog: Drug suppliers would present gifts to apothecaries who sold their goods (plus ça change) and a favourite offering was an alligator or crocodile due to their associations with learning and as a symbolic defence against disease. They were also relatively easy to preserve; indeed, the oldest surviving example of taxidermy is said to be a crocodile mounted in 1623 and exhibited at St. Gallen's Museum of Natural History in Switzerland. http://forum.alchemyforums.com/archive/index.php/t-2215.html Crocs are also the number one killer animal in Africa. Quote Egyptians who worked or travelled on the Nile hoped that if they prayed to Sobek, the crocodile/Nile god, he would protect them from being attacked by crocodiles... As a creator god, he [Sobek] was occasionally linked with the sun god Ra... Gradually, Sobek also came to symbolize the produce of the Nile and the fertility that it brought to the land; its status thus became more ambiguous... a representation of strength and power... the symbol of royal authority - the uraeus. He was also shown with an ankh, representing his ability to undo evil and so cure ills. Once he had become Sobek-Ra, he was also shown with a sun-disc over his head, as Ra was a sun god... Sobek was credited for catching the Four sons of Horus in a net as they emerged from the waters of the Nile in a lotus blossom. - source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sobek) Edited July 4, 2017 by voidisyinyang Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 4, 2017 (edited) Edited July 4, 2017 by voidisyinyang Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted July 9, 2017 (edited) Like the other mythical creatures of Cinese lore, their dragon is a chimera, and its head is that of a boar, which is why it doesnt look like a croc. Otherwise, like the tortoise and Lion, they would just have called it a crocodile. If you make your mythical creatures real ones it gets too confusing. It would be like naming all your kids Yu. Edited July 9, 2017 by Stosh 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 9, 2017 On 7/4/2017 at 2:24 AM, voidisyinyang said: Crocs are also the number one killer animal in Africa. I think man has taken the number one position for doing that. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted July 9, 2017 That got a chuckle from me. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phore Posted July 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Stosh said: Like the other mythical creatures of Cinese lore, their dragon is a chimera, and its head is that of a boar, which is why it doesnt look like a croc. Otherwise, like the tortoise and Lion, they would just have called it a crocodile. If you make your mythical creatures real ones it gets too confusing. It would be like naming all your kids Yu. I must have some look alikes running around locally, because I have invariably been referred to as Yu, Hei, Hem, and Tat Gui. Maybe they are my long lost quintuplets. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted July 10, 2017 I am aware of modern new age construals about this. I am curious what Starjumper or Apec say about this though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qicat Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, voidisyinyang said: this is a European dragon. You have to distinguish Europe vs Asian dragons. I have never seen an Asian dragon with a crocodile head. European dragons perhaps, but I have not seen them, so cannot talk about it. I might accept that crocodiles came from European dragons. Asian dragons came from the sky. They are still there actually. Just because humans do not have proper vision to see them, does not mean they are not there. Just like with anything else "humans are blind to". There are dragon meditations, perhaps you should invoke one and ask them if they are crocodiles. I am sure he/she will bite your head off...Unless you are with an European dragon... then perhaps he/she is a crocodile... Also, there is a difference between Nagas ( flying snakes) and Dragons. But I think they are more like cousins(?) to each other. Different clans of the common type(?). I.e. when you see a dragon and Naga, you know which one is which. They are not the same. Edited July 10, 2017 by qicat 5 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 10, 2017 So even dragons have a "tribe" ethnicity? Interesting. Eurocentric New Age b.s. is quite common on this website. haha. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
doc benway Posted July 10, 2017 On 7/4/2017 at 2:24 AM, voidisyinyang said: Crocs are also the number one killer animal in Africa The number one (non-human) killer in Africa is the hippo. The second is the mosquito. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
voidisyinyang Posted July 10, 2017 Yes and with global warming the African mosquitoes are heading north to wipe out the white people. haha. But dragons? Nope they stay in Europe if they're crocodilian apparently. ooh - that gives me an idea - google crocodilian dragon and what do I get? Wani (dragon) - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wani_(dragon) Wani (鰐) was a dragon or sea monster in Japanese mythology. Since it is written using the kanji 鰐 wani is translated as "crocodile", or sometimes "shark Wani ... Crocodilian Art - Dragon and Croc - Herpy Image Archive - Herpy.nu herpy.nu/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=7325 Jan 13, 2017 - Album name: Archive / Crocodilian Art. Keywords: crocodilian / crocodile / dragon / male / anthro / M/M / penis / masturbation / spooge / grimal. The Tao of the Alligator and the Crocodile - Google Books Result https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1468933906 J.M. Garlock - 2013 - Religion alchemist or a shaman or a wizard to change a crocodilian into a dragon. Some intellectuals believe that for hundreds of thousands of years the dragon slept, ... All About Chinese Dragons - Page 10 - Google Books Result https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1435703227 Roy Bates - 2007 - Animals, Mythical I showed in Chapter 1 that the shape of a dragon had been found in a graved dated to the Neolithic era. The similarity to a crocodile is unmistakable. In South ... As I was saying. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
qicat Posted July 10, 2017 you never seen a real dragon, do you? p.s. if flying crocodile is hanging out around you, perhaps he is your spirit animal... interesting... 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted July 10, 2017 (edited) 32 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said: Yes and with global warming the African mosquitoes are heading north to wipe out the white people. haha. But dragons? Nope they stay in Europe if they're crocodilian apparently. ooh - that gives me an idea - google crocodilian dragon and what do I get? Wani (dragon) - Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wani_(dragon) Wani (鰐) was a dragon or sea monster in Japanese mythology. Since it is written using the kanji 鰐 wani is translated as "crocodile", or sometimes "shark Wani ... Crocodilian Art - Dragon and Croc - Herpy Image Archive - Herpy.nu herpy.nu/gallery/displayimage.php?pid=7325 Jan 13, 2017 - Album name: Archive / Crocodilian Art. Keywords: crocodilian / crocodile / dragon / male / anthro / M/M / penis / masturbation / spooge / grimal. The Tao of the Alligator and the Crocodile - Google Books Result https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1468933906 J.M. Garlock - 2013 - Religion alchemist or a shaman or a wizard to change a crocodilian into a dragon. Some intellectuals believe that for hundreds of thousands of years the dragon slept, ... All About Chinese Dragons - Page 10 - Google Books Result https://books.google.com/books?isbn=1435703227 Roy Bates - 2007 - Animals, Mythical I showed in Chapter 1 that the shape of a dragon had been found in a graved dated to the Neolithic era. The similarity to a crocodile is unmistakable. In South ... As I was saying. Don't big font at me dude. You're still wrong. wrong and rude. Apologize for the big font, correct it..... As far as being wrong you've only proved you aren't the only one to be misled . Edited July 10, 2017 by Stosh 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted July 10, 2017 Proceeding like a mentally stable person, crocodillians do not fly , nor do they breathe fire , nor do they have overlapping scales like a snake nor do they have antlers ears or a mane .. Their eyes do not point forward , and they dont have much of a neck The only thing like an asian crocodile , is that this thing has is an elongate shape , and its just as likely to consider it similar to a salamander ,of lizard of any type ,, and only those of feeble imagination or knowledge of natural creatures would consider croc to be the only candidate as a model. 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 10, 2017 5 hours ago, qicat said: this is a European dragon. You have to distinguish Europe vs Asian dragons. I have never seen an Asian dragon with a crocodile head. European dragons perhaps, but I have not seen them, so cannot talk about it. I might accept that crocodiles came from European dragons. Asian dragons came from the sky. They are still there actually. Just because humans do not have proper vision to see them, does not mean they are not there. Just like with anything else "humans are blind to". There are dragon meditations, perhaps you should invoke one and ask them if they are crocodiles. I am sure he/she will bite your head off...Unless you are with an European dragon... then perhaps he/she is a crocodile... Also, there is a difference between Nagas ( flying snakes) and Dragons. But I think they are more like cousins(?) to each other. Different clans of the common type(?). I.e. when you see a dragon and Naga, you know which one is which. They are not the same. Chinese dragon is beautiful, handsome and brings good luck and fortune . European dragon is is ugly, beastly and represents the animal lust which must be suppressed . They threaten maidens and brave young men must rescue the maidens from their lust .... I mean the dragon's lust ! Voidisyingyang seems to have confused the two ... externally and internally . Inner conflicts ; 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 10, 2017 48 minutes ago, Stosh said: Proceeding like a mentally stable person, crocodillians do not fly , nor do they breathe fire , nor do they have overlapping scales like a snake nor do they have antlers ears or a mane .. Their eyes do not point forward , and they dont have much of a neck The only thing like an asian crocodile , is that this thing has is an elongate shape , and its just as likely to consider it similar to a salamander ,of lizard of any type ,, and only those of feeble imagination or knowledge of natural creatures would consider croc to be the only candidate as a model. careful there Stosh .... if you do not agree with what he says ... and do as he instructs YOU will be tagged as a Nazi by the Voidisyinyang's 'stick you in the 'appropriate' box ' categorizing system 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nungali Posted July 10, 2017 " And we shall eliminate all non 'pure' crocodiles from our waterways and sewers ! Only western crocodiles shall remain .... the original Aryan crocodile shall reign supreme ! " 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stosh Posted July 10, 2017 I AM half German... but at least I have heard of the Pixiu Nian Sinyou and Xiezhi . ( and know what a crocodillian actually looks like ) , Heck ! this is an alligator I saw this weekend. You got em too,, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
