Crocodile is original origin of Chinese Dragon: Ancient Taoist Origins

[voidisyinyang]

24 minutes ago, Stosh said:

I AM half German... but at least I have heard of the Pixiu Nian Sinyou and Xiezhi . ( and know what a crocodillian actually looks like ) , Heck !  this is an alligator I saw this weekend.

You got em too,, 

 

I realize it might be difficult to consider that the title of this thread is "origins" of dragon - not current paper-mache festival dragons.

 

And so if you want to engage with the evidence I posted about the crocodilian origins of Chinese dragons, be my guest.

 

As for the images I posted - half of them are Chinese dragons that look like crocodiles.

 

So apparently, based on those images, some current modern chinese people still associate their dragons with crocodiles.

 

Now according to you they are wrong. According to me - they are being true to the ancient origins of both dragons and Taoism. haha.

 

As for you being "half German" - I am more than half German - my dad's side moved out of Dresden (something about a sheep herding murder), fled to Sweden, married into Swedes - and then immigrated to U.S.

 

My mom's side fled the Palatine region to England with the Queen promising voyage to the U.S. but instead the Germans were roped into being skilled craftsworkers on Irish aristocratic palaces or what do you call those IndoEuropean things - forts oh yeah - castles! haha. there is some Castle in Ireland that is devoted to the Palatinians and my mom visited it and the castle treated her like family, since our German ancestors had worked there.

 

anyway so then the Germans married into actual real Irish in Canada.

 

So German-Celt-Aryan Crocodilian-Dragon-Reptilian bloodlines, unite to conquer the planet or at least pretend to - right?

 

haha. Whatever.

 

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Ancient Chinese descriptions, depictions and stone carvings of Pixiu from the Han dynasty (206 BC–220 AD) show the male with a single antler and the female with two.

 

Yeah real "ancient" - I'm talking 4000 BCE and you want the Han dynasty? Nope.

 

 

[Stosh]

Fine, thanks ,

I found an article which has your shell dragon, better angle,  it already has a long neck ,,,  you cant make much else out. SO that find , doesn't prove the origin was a croc. Going back all the way to the hongshan neolithic period around 7500 to 8000 years ago , the dragon already had its non crocodile form and was not paired with the tiger but with another chimera called a fenghuang which is a composite bird thing and that's before any recognizable traditional Chinese cultural tradition had begun.( Its really really far back in time. )

The word dragon Lo'ng is it? has no meaning other than the mythical thing.

For all we know , the original 'dragon' could've been the Yellow river or something. 

The invention of new chimeras and mythical creatures has continued through time , but you haven't proven anything about the origin of a dragon being a crocodile , esp when it has ears horns and flies. Yes I know people associate  it a bit with crocodiles now , but that is short cutting a long   and rich cultural tradition , and the crocodile thing seems a trivialization of what the symbolism has meant over time. Perhaps subconsciously We in the West, who have undermined so much of our own cultural heritage, building new stuff and moving on ..we might like to do the same 'favor' for them ,or  we might think that if we can just simplify history with a mundane origin , that the playing field might be evened or we can at least feel a sense that we have a good grasp on things. Personally , I think its cooler if its not a croc, but all things frankly admitted , it might have been once,, but thats all that can be said,,,  it    Might have been-  8000 ! yrs ago. .

 

Edited July 10, 2017 by Stosh

[voidisyinyang]

9 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Fine, thanks ,

I found an article which has your shell dragon, better angle,  it already has a long neck ,,,  you cant make much else out. SO that find , doesn't prove the origin was a croc. Going back all the way to the hongshan neolithic period around 7500 to 8000 years ago , the dragon already had its non crocodile form and was not paired with the tiger but with another chimera called a fenghuang which is a composite bird thing and that's before any recognizable traditional Chinese cultural tradition had begun.( Its really really far back in time. )

The word dragon Lo'ng is it? has no meaning other than the mythical thing.

For all we know , the original 'dragon' could've been the Yellow river or something. 

The invention of new chimeras and mythical creatures has continued through time , but you haven't proven anything about the origin of a dragon being a crocodile , esp when it has ears horns and flies. Yes I know people associate  it a bit with crocodiles now , but that is short cutting a long   and rich cultural tradition , and the crocodile thing seems a trivialization of what the symbolism has meant over time. Perhaps subconsciously We in the West, who have undermined so much of our own cultural heritage, building new stuff and moving on ..we might like to do the same 'favor' for them ,or  we might think that if we can just simplify history with a mundane origin , that the playing field might be evened or we can at least feel a sense that we have a good grasp on things. Personally , I think its cooler if its not a croc, but all things frankly admitted , it might have been once,, but thats all that can be said,,,  it    Might have been-  8000 ! yrs ago. .

 

 

O.K. thanks that's interesting.

 

 

Is this some kind of embryo form?

 

Maybe I didn't mention it before - but the Dragon and Tiger are not just "paired" but paired as East and West - which is the very specific Taoist alchemy meaning. If you study the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality it gives more details - or my free pdf.

 

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The dragon is 26 cm in height with the head of a swine and the body of a serpent, coiling like cirrus. Similar dragons were found later in Balin Right Banner and the Antiques Store of Liaoning Province. These cirrus-shaped jade articles can be classified into four types by analyzing their patterns and designs: decorative articles, tools, animals and special ones, of which the hoop-shaped articles are among the typical pieces of the jade ware of Hongshan Culture. The association of the shapes of these jade articles with their cultural context indicates that the special articles and the tools were made to meet the needs of religious ceremonies.

 

The discovery of cirrus-shaped jade dragon at Hongshan Culture strongly suggests Inner Mongolia as one of the essential sites to trace the worship for dragon by the Chinese people.

 

From the 1980s, religious relics of Hongshan Culture like the "GoddessTemple" and stone-pile tombs have been found at Dongshanzui of Kazuo County and Niuheliang at the juncture of LingyuanCounty and Jianping County of Liaoning Province. The central part of Dongshanzui relics is the foundation of a large-scaled square structure built of stone. The overall layout of bilateral symmetry of the foundation to a south-north axis, which is characteristic of the traditional Chinese architectural style, is the first of its kind ever discovered at the site of Neolithic Age.

 

 

http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/217743.htm

 

http://www.ancient-origins.net/ancient-places-asia/relics-niuheliang-goddess-temple-most-mysterious-site-ancient-hongshan-002594

 

So that jade dragon is supposed to have a pig's head?

 

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the site dates back 5,000 – 5,500 years.

 

hmm - is that before the crocodile dragon?

 

I got a pdf on Chinese ancient rituals...

 

So it mentions the 6000 year old dragon and tiger.

 

No mention of the pig-dragon.

 

O.K. says the temple where that pig-dragon is found is over 5000 years old.

 

So not as old as the crocodile Dragon.

 

Sorry.

 

Oh wait - sure enough a section on the "pig-dragon"

 

says dates back to 5,000 years ago.

 

So that's from the Institute of Archaeology, Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.

 

 

[Starjumper]

I would like to offer a different point of view here.  A Chinese dragon came to see me while I was meditating and it, the head, did not look anything like a crocodile or an alligator.  The head looked like a raptor type of dinosaur but with a frill, the difference was the eyes were looking forward, with binocular vision, instead of being on the side of the head, like in raptors.  Now there can be no doubt that if someone with my low level of psychic ability could see a dragon then more advanced people who are more psychic will see them too, and probably more often.  In fact these dragons are immortals who are allowing themselves to be seen by mortals, and as such they could be projecting an energy/image which could look different to different observers, depending on how their brains interpret the psychic information they are receiving.  Dragons are known for fighting each other, and I know that they can also fight to the death with a powerful shaman and win, only a powerful shaman would try to kill a dragon.

 

In addition it seems that a lot of people who see these beings from the spirit realm know perfectly well that they exist in the spirit world; but there's more.

 

Chinese people would sometimes find fossilized footprints of large dinosaurs in the wilderness, and sometimes these rock slabs would have been tilted up at steep angles.  So people of the time, reportedly not knowing of the immense time required to create a fossil, would think that the giant creature that could run up steep slopes and make footprints in solid rock was still around lurking in the wilderness right there with them.  People weren't stupid back then and they would know as well that crocodiles or alligators can't make giant footprints, with each one spaced six feet apart, in solid rock.  

 

So they would know without a doubt, for two or more reasons, that a crocodile is not a dragon!

 

I think what happened is that crocodiles were the only living flesh and bones thing that even slightly approximated a dragon and so they used them in burial ceremonies.

 

Someday I will draw a a picture of what the dragon that came to see me looked like, or get an artist to draw it.  Are there any artists around here interested in drawing an actual accurate picture of a dragon?

Edited July 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Stosh]

To me, the stylized green thing looks like a sea horse,,, with a real horse head , or a birds , but frankly,   its SO stylized,  I don't think it really looks like a pig head OR a crocodile.

It looks most like....whatever the person who made it says it is. ( it could be an embryo human! - ontology follows phylogeny) . 

An image made by a person who has no clue what the heck the creature looks like , is not a faithful depiction of the animal its intended to represent , and so its no proof what the creature would have been.  Lets see what Starjumper comes up with, once he gets off that crutch,  that he can't draw it. 

[Starjumper]

Oh I can draw very well,  I was a child prodigy at six.  It's just that I gravitated to loving to draw birds, from there I switch to drawing airplanes, and then to designing airplanes.  First I'll work on a sketch of front and sides views of the being that came to see me, then maybe a nicer perspective picture.  I described it in my dragon thread but I'll describe it again here.

 

Since I was meditating sitting in bed in a darkened room with my eyes closed the visual background was dark gray.  The being that came to visit faced me with it's head about three feet away, pretty close so I got a real good look, and it just looked into my eyes for awhile, like maybe ten seconds. It's head was about the same size as a human head only a lot longer, of course, and a little lower and wider. Due to the shape of the jaw and nose, which was similar to a raptor dinosaur, you could tell it had big teeth, but the mouth was closed.  It was covered with scales, just like a reptile.  The base color was off white.  the scales were small but the scales around the nostrils, lips, eyes, and on the spines of the large frill were larger and had a light violet color.  The eyes were not on the side of the head like in a raptor but looked straight ahead, they were big and round and were yellow.  The pupils were round, not slotted as in reptiles.  It had a frill, similar to an umbrella shape with spines and folds, like you see in some lizards, but it was very big.  It was neither closed and folded back nor was it opened all the way in a threat gesture, it was midway.  The strange thing is that the frill did not have an ending that I could see, it just faded into the background gloom, as if it was connected to the universe so to speak.  I go the feeling that this frill served as sort of a psychic antenna.

 

The look in the eyes was very telling.  It projected extreme calmness, the sense of calmness and quiet was way stronger than anything I had ever seen or felt before, and it was clear that it had this great calmness because it was extremely powerful.  Extreme power results in extreme calmness and peace, or can result in it, or should result in it.  At that time and for a couple of years after that I did not know it was a dragon, because I believed that dragons did not exist.  It wasn't till one evening I was sitting in my little wood shack in the Ecuador wilderness that we finally had a bit of conversation, where he told me that both he and I were dragons.  It went like this:

 

"Are you an alien?"

 

"Noooo"

 

"Then what are you?"

 

"We are dragonssss"

 

That is all, and the comment was soft and drawn out with a strong ululating quality.

 

More and more I feel that this being was actually my chi kung teacher, Mr. Yueng.

 

In the literature it sez that the pale off white dragon is the harbinger of death, but I didn't die.  Maybe when it goes to visit some practitioners it scares them to death, but I remained quite calm myself as I looked back into it's eyes.  Later I found out that this dragon is my guardian.

 

Maybe that description will give some artist something to work with, if so send me a sketch and I'll point out corrections.  I feel I'm close to getting a round tuit myself now.  You know, drawing scales is so tedious.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

Once my kung fu brother and fearless clan leader went to a coffee shop to have a coffee with a police officer and the officer said, "you have a 4800 year old demon in you" and he took out his gun and put it next to his coffee cup on the table where it was close to his hand.  Actually it wasn't a demon, he saw the dragon that is my brother.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Stosh]

Skip the scales then, yes that is tedious ,. and to show I am not lazy , I'll  match with a hoghead dragon. 

Edited July 11, 2017 by Stosh

[Starjumper]

Ok, we're in luck.  I decided to dust off an old mask I made and take some pictures of it this morning in order to make it a little easier to draw a sketch.  This is quite an accurate rendition of the size and shape of the head of the dragon that came to see me.  I had put a frill on it in a hurry for a halloween party but that was all wrong so I took it off to make a new one.  You can see markings across the top of the head where the spines of the frill are supposed to attach.  The difficulty with the frill is finding some kind of narrow tapered rod that is a bit flexible and then finding the right kind of fabric to drape over it.  I think I'll try cutting some small bamboo we have growing here and see if that can work.

 

I took it to the halloween party and that night when I walked into the kitchen a little boy there, who was sitting on his dad's lap, burst out crying.  It looked much more impressive when the big frill was on it even though that wasn't that accurate.

 

 

 

 

So this will give some artists something to start with.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Stosh]

Well ,It is spooky.

 I don't have a pre-made dragon , so I I'll need to get one done tonight. 

[Starjumper]

5 minutes ago, Stosh said:

Well ,It is spooky.

 I don't have a pre-made dragon , so I I'll need to get one done tonight. 

 

I suggest using plaster of paris because it dries way faster that paper mache and is also a lot stronger.  Looking forward to seeing that, is this one that you saw?

Edited July 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Stosh]

2 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

I suggest using plaster of paris because it dries way faster that paper mache and is also a lot stronger.  Looking forward to seeing that, is this one that you saw?

I was going to go digital starting with some photos I took , and try to show that the hog head is a more natural fit for the dragon as a chimera. The apt isn't really convenient for making things with plaster, or clay , and to do that I would want to spend a long time on it. 

[voidisyinyang]

3 hours ago, Stosh said:

To me, the stylized green thing looks like a sea horse,,, with a real horse head , or a birds , but frankly,   its SO stylized,  I don't think it really looks like a pig head OR a crocodile.

It looks most like....whatever the person who made it says it is. ( it could be an embryo human! - ontology follows phylogeny) . 

An image made by a person who has no clue what the heck the creature looks like , is not a faithful depiction of the animal its intended to represent , and so its no proof what the creature would have been.  Lets see what Starjumper comes up with, once he gets off that crutch,  that he can't draw it. 

 

 

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ontology follows phylogeny

 

Umm - you're supposed to quote Haeckel now as a joke - as his belief in that was the main foundation for Nazism.

 

 

Quote

 

Ernst Haeckel - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Haeckel

Ernst Heinrich Philipp August Haeckel was a German biologist, naturalist, philosopher, ... biology", and that phrase was picked up and used for Nazi propaganda. ... summed up by Haeckel in the phrase "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny".

 

 

[Brian]

9 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

 

Umm - you're supposed to quote Haeckel now as a joke - as his belief in that was the main foundation for Nazism.

 

 

 

Try Quine (borrowing from James Grier Miller) instead of Haeckel...

Edited July 11, 2017 by Brian

[Stosh]

7 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

 

Umm - you're supposed to quote Haeckel now as a joke - as his belief in that was the main foundation for Nazism.

 

 

 

Yeah, those coincidences happen to me all the time, I don't make much of it anymore , I cant figure out how to may it pay-off. 

[voidisyinyang]

4 minutes ago, Brian said:

Try Quine instead of Haeckel...

 

Yeah Stosh said "ontology" instead of Ontogeny - he meant the latter in terms of embryo.

 

 

Quote

 

Ontology Recapitulates Philology: Willard Quine, Pragmatism ... - JStor

https://www.jstor.org/stable/27759418

by JC Malone - ‎2001 - ‎Cited by 16 - ‎Related articles

Ontology Recapitulates Philology:1 wlllard quine,

 

 

Not philology. haha.

 

[Stosh]

My bad , spelling. 

[voidisyinyang]

2 minutes ago, Stosh said:

My bad , spelling. 

 

Point being that the phrase is used to claim that cultures follow the development of the embryo - so for example it was claimed by Piaget that certain cultures still have the mentalities of 5 year olds, and this line of thinking the justified claims of people still being "subhumans" etc.

 

My brother-in-law who is a blue-blood Aryan Reptilian said he was not African since he didn't live in trees. Nice.

 

But anyway crocodiles apparently when transformed into dragons are quite finicky about their ontogeny. haha. If it is a European crocodilian dragon then they have wings, meaning they are more "evolved" like birds. haha. Hilarious.

[Marblehead]

The Central and South American natives had a feathered dragon.

 

[Marblehead]

10 minutes ago, Stosh said:

My bad , spelling. 

You spelled the word correctly.  It was just the improper word.

 

[voidisyinyang]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

The Central and South American natives had a feathered dragon.

 

 

Instead of buffalo wings they should serve dragon wings.

[thursday]

.

Edited July 11, 2017 by thursday

[Brian]

http://2000clicks.com/Graeme/LangWisdomSayingOntogenyRecapitulatesPhylogeny.htm

[Starjumper]

I was asked to delete my answer to the quote that was deleted.

Edited July 11, 2017 by Starjumper

[Stosh]

 

 

Ontogeny Recapitulates Phylogeny

"Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" is a catchy phrase coined by Ernst Haeckel, a 19th century German biologist and philosopher to mean that the development of an organism (ontogeny) expresses all the intermediate forms of its ancestors throughout evolution (phylogeny). 

Whichever this one is,   is the one I was meaning - that the thing looks like an embryo , even a human one , since they all look creepy.