Crocodile is original origin of Chinese Dragon: Ancient Taoist Origins

[Stosh]

The 'fur'  is due to using the smudge controls in photoshop with one of the assorted brushes attributable. Other parts were  hand-(mouse) painted , layered on from other photos I took. It was time consuming , for various reasons, like , I only had one side view of foot (from a snail kite) and had to reproduce that into the other three. 

[Starjumper]

I looked around on the internet and the closest thing I could find to something realistic was the head of a Komodo Dragon, because they are real, and not a fantasy creation (the blind leading the blind so to speak).  The problem with the Komodo is the same as with every single depiction of dragons, and that is that dragons are highly intelligent, so they have big brains, so they have a forehead.

 

Today I will do the drawing.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

OK, here is a second sketch, side view.  It didn't take so long after all.  This, ladies and gentlemen, is a depiction of real, at least as real as it gets in the spirit realm, which appears to be much larger than our own little realm.

 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2017 by Starjumper
to update drawing

[voidisyinyang]

 

Troodon was the smartest dinosaur.

 

 

Gorgon was the smartest animal of the Permian geological age some 280 million years ago.

 

An anthropologist Jones argued that the Dragon is a composite of all the dominant predators of primates - from our ancestor deep memory fears.

 

his book title - "An Instinct for Dragons."

 

 

http://enigmose.com/dinosaurs_dragons.html

 

So the composite of animals was Harpy Eagles, big Cats, and Snakes - and maybe one other.

 

But to bring it back to the OP we turn to Smithsonian:

 

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/where-did-dragons-come-from-23969126/

 

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Interestingly the Chinese word for year is nian. Nian was a dragon who terrorized villagers, killing their children and destroying their crops. Chinese new year is called "xin nian", or literally "new dragon". The custom of placing red placards on the door posts at Chinese new year directly mirrors the ancient Hebrew Passover, when the angel passed through Egypt killing the firstborn save for the Hebrews who had to paint their doorposts with the blood of a lamb.

 

Quote

 

Therefore "Python" would mean "The Divided Runner" which is in fact the heavens or night-time sky which is, of course, "divided" by the day. So if "Apollo" represented the "Sun" his serpent, "Python" would literally be Apollo's divided serpent; one who is split by the Sun.

The image of the snake or serpent as "motion" goes back to the cave-man days when we used logo-grams to represent ideas, words and concepts which you can find in ancient Egyptian sites.

 

 

[Starjumper]

This is starting to be more convincing =)  I was thinking yesterday about the crocodile origin idea, and I'll admit it could be.  The question, I think, is which came first, the chicken or the egg.  Maybe crocodiles served as the dragons and then when people became immortals they adopted the image.  Maybe some immortals from ancient prehistoric times already were dragons and people who didn't see them thought of the crocodile.

 

Another thing that occurred to me is the way psychic information can manifest.  For example my chi kung teacher could hardly speak English, but when he spoke to me via telepathy his English was perfectly fine.  It's kind of amazing how that could work, but following the same concept, possibly the dragon that was projecting his image saw himself differently and since I'm well enough informed about anatomy and structure, my mind filled in the spaces with something that had to look 'real' to me.

 

Just some thoughts.  ... and some questions, like, are there some immortals that are from long past lost prehistoric civilizations?

Edited July 14, 2017 by Starjumper

[gendao]

On 7/10/2017 at 5:44 PM, Stosh said:

I found an article which has your shell dragon, better angle,  it already has a long neck ,,,  you cant make much else out. SO that find , doesn't prove the origin was a croc. Going back all the way to the hongshan neolithic period around 7500 to 8000 years ago , the dragon already had its non crocodile form and was not paired with the tiger but with another chimera called a fenghuang which is a composite bird thing and that's before any recognizable traditional Chinese cultural tradition had begun.( Its really really far back in time. )

The word dragon Lo'ng is it? has no meaning other than the mythical thing.

For all we know , the original 'dragon' could've been the Yellow river or something. 

The invention of new chimeras and mythical creatures has continued through time , but you haven't proven anything about the origin of a dragon being a crocodile , esp when it has ears horns and flies. Yes I know people associate  it a bit with crocodiles now , but that is short cutting a long   and rich cultural tradition , and the crocodile thing seems a trivialization of what the symbolism has meant over time.

Yea, I have to admit that while the crocodile origin story is an intriguing possibility, it doesn't quite seem like an exact fit, either.

 

For one thing, the mythological depictions of Chinese dragons tend to have longer necks and legs than a crocodile/alligator.  And even in the earliest scripts, they tend to show an ornate head with "catfish whiskers"...that still looks remarkably consistent with modern artwork today!

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龍 dragon

So nothing's really changed over thousands of years!!!  Whatever this creature is supposed to be - it looks similar to a crocodile/alligator - but not entirely.

 

Not to mention, there have been various Chinese terms for dragons, crocodiles, and alligators, with some distinctions and some possible overlap.  But if they were all basically one and the same, wouldn't there just be 1 word?

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Jiaolong (蛟龍) or jiao (蛟) is a polysemous aquatic dragon in Chinese mythology.

Three classical texts (Liji 6, tr. Legge 1885:1:277, Huainanzi 5, and Lüshi Chunqiu 6) repeat a sentence about capturing water creatures at the end of summer; 伐蛟取鼉登龜取黿 "attack the jiao 蛟, take the to 鼉 "alligator", present the gui 龜 "tortoise", and take the yuan 黿 "soft-shell turtle".

Besides a legendary dragon, jiao and jiaolong anciently named a four-legged water creature, identified as both "alligator" and "crocodile". The "Dragons and Snakes" section of the (1578 CE) Bencao Gangmu, which is a comprehensive Chinese materia medica, differentiates (tr. Read 1934:314-318) between jiaolong 蛟龍 (or e 鱷) "Saltwater Crocodile, Crocodylus porosus" and tolong 鼉龍 "Chinese Alligator, Alligator sinensis"

So in some texts, they even refer to "jiao" and alligators separately as different aquatic creatures.  A "jiao" is therefore at least not an alligator, but some type of distinct "dragon" or possibly, a saltwater crocodile.

 

But then why would there be 2 different words for crocodile?  Although, 鱷 for crocodile, appears to be a relatively new term, not existing in older Bronze or Oracle scripts...

Well, the key words to research here would be 龍 (lóng), 蛟 (jiāo), and to a lesser extent, 鱷 (è).

Edited July 15, 2017 by gendao

[voidisyinyang]

1 hour ago, gendao said:

Yea, I have to admit that while the crocodile origin story is an intriguing possibility, it doesn't quite seem like an exact fit, either.

 

For one thing, the mythological depictions of Chinese dragons tend to have longer necks and legs than a crocodile/alligator.  And even in the earliest scripts, they tend to show an ornate head with "catfish whiskers"...that still looks remarkable consistent with modern artwork today!

So nothing's really changed over thousands of years!!!  Whatever this creature is supposed to be - it looks similar to a crocodile/alligator - but not entirely.

 

Not to mention, there have been various Chinese terms for dragons, crocodiles, and alligators, with some distinctions and some possible overlap.  But if they were all basically one and the same, wouldn't there just be 1 word?

So in some texts, they even refer to "jiao" and alligators separately as different aquatic creatures.  A "jiao" is therefore at least not an alligator, but some type of distinct "dragon" or possibly, a saltwater crocodile.

 

But then why would there be 2 different words for crocodile?  Although, 鱷 for crocodile, appears to be a relatively new term, not existing in older Bronze or Oracle scripts...

Well, the key words to research here would be 龍 (lóng), 蛟 (jiāo), and to a lesser extent, 鱷 (è).

It may have been thousands of years but the Chinese dragon as sea crocodile went extinct already and now the Chinese alligator maybe went extinct already: http://www.nytimes.com/2001/08/21/science/rare-alligator-is-threatened-as-china-feeds-its-people.html

 

Those animals have been around for hundreds of millions of years.

 

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what could be called the country's only living dragon appears to be in serious trouble.

According to a new study, the Chinese alligator -- the animal that may have inspired the mythical creatures and is known as tu long, or earth dragon -- is barely hanging on in nature.

Researchers say fewer than 130 of these animals are left in the wild, though their current habitat in southeastern China can hardly be called wilderness.

 

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he saltwater crocodile has been long extinct in China,

 

 

That's the earliest Chinese character for Dragon - looks pretty Crocodile Dundee to me.

 

https://www.languagewire.com/en/lw/themes/chinese-dragon

 

Which brings us to this intriguing link

 

The Tao of the Alligator and the Crocodile

By J.M. Garlock

https://books.google.com/books?id=7QDclHhIwwAC&pg=PT75&lpg=PT75&dq=chinese+dragon+character+on+oracle+bone+crocodile&source=bl&ots=Ja_KMaHd2n&sig=-PadkCBDwhwIKJwuuGcywl7-fq8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiL5fqx54fVAhXpjlQKHeExCkkQ6AEIPzAJ#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Says yep the Oracle Bone character is a Crocodile as Dragon in Shang dynasty.

 

But of course what I'm talking about is older than the Shang Dynasty.

 

4000 BCE. So a good 2500 years of the Crocodile as dragon in China. Sure it's "pre-history" as archaeology but it's also REAL Taoist alchemy - dragon is east and tiger west. You gotta study the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality for the details or read my free pdf. haha.

 

So that book is not about China but rather arguing that Crocodiles and Alligators are "living dragons" and were considered such in China.

 

yeah 230 million years old.

 

 

Edited July 14, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[Stosh]

  I dont know that this symbol suggests .. Anything in particular , it could be some kind of bug , catfish, or a kangaroo ,, it just isnt showing clearly any feature clearly associated with a Chinese Dragon.  Drawing mine , it strikes me that the attempt starts to be making your dragon , not look much like something else. Mines a little feline. What kind of it ends up being is a chimera ,, whether you intend it to or not.  If the dragon is a composite of many water creatures , one of those could be a crocodile , but you gotta see that other traits are mixed in that crocodiles just dont have , like the whiskers Gendao mentioned. 

I'm wondering though if Old Chinese dragons even breathe fire , or whether they are exhaling clouds ,, spun as smoke n fire in western lore. 

[Brian]

47 minutes ago, Stosh said:

  I dont know that this symbol suggests .. Anything in particular , it could be some kind of bug , catfish, or a kangaroo ,, it just isnt showing clearly any feature clearly associated with a Chinese Dragon.  Drawing mine , it strikes me that the attempt starts to be making your dragon , not look much like something else. Mines a little feline. What kind of it ends up being is a chimera ,, whether you intend it to or not.  If the dragon is a composite of many water creatures , one of those could be a crocodile , but you gotta see that other traits are mixed in that crocodiles just dont have , like the whiskers Gendao mentioned. 

I'm wondering though if Old Chinese dragons even breathe fire , or whether they are exhaling clouds ,, spun as smoke n fire in western lore. 

That symbol is clearly an early iteration of this:

Spoiler

 

[Stosh]

LOL Thats IT ! perfect  

[Stosh]

Work is slow today , and so I am googling around to find out what an old dragon used to look like , Im finding apollo fetishes which could be pretty much anything,but found one  described as a hog head dragon from Honshan dynasty that   had hoofed feet , and its a figure that would morph into those other ones that look like embryos and get called dragons(for lack of any idea what else to call them I suppose ) 

I think it would be fair to say that nothing that actually looked like a dragon existed much  before 1000 BC , they are  other creatures morphed into nondescript blobs , which get called dragon to raise sales value.  I cant be exact on the date yet , please  show me the recognizable dragon that goes back to Hongshan and which looks enough  like a crocodile , that one should reasonably say they are related. 

The point of contention , I am thinking, is that one can see from some proof provided that the early origin of what are known as dragons now , has been  and still is what we call crocodiles.  My claim that they are chimeras , similarly has an issue in that they have no original form from which the image has descended .  

It was originally an undifferentiated blob, which has, over time become attributed with body parts of various creatures , various meaning or associations. 

Edited July 14, 2017 by Stosh

[Marblehead]

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon

 

[Stosh]

3 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

  Hide contents

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_dragon

 

What am I supposed to gather from that or are you going to be like Nungali and just have me guess.

[Marblehead]

Well, assume that I am saying that the Chinese Dragon evolved from the snake, not the crocodile.

 

 

[Stosh]

21 minutes ago, Marblehead said:

Well, assume that I am saying that the Chinese Dragon evolved from the snake, not the crocodile.

 

 

That's  as good as any   choice , and better n some    

 

What the hell is wrong with the text , I cant even fix an apostrophe without deleting the following words !

[gendao]

8 hours ago, Stosh said:

 

Great art!!!  And I'm also still not sure that that pictograph depicts a crocodile.  Sure, it has 4 legs and a serpentine body...but it still also has what appears to be some head shield or frill?  Which you still often see in past and present artwork.

(Bronze dragon, A.D. 220–589)

(Earthenware Dragon, 400-600 CE)

(Painted Ceramic Dragon, Tang Dynasty)

Honestly, all these Chinese dragons look more like these (than just a crocodile):

(Dracorex hogwartsia)

(Pachycephalosaurus)

(Nothosaurus)

(Sirrush by Ishtar Gate from 600 BC)

(Ojibwa Indian art, Agawa Rock, Ontario, CA)

(Petroglyh - Wupatki National Park, Arizona)

(Tomb Tapestries - Ica, Peru, 200 – 700 AD)

 

It makes you wonder if perhaps the Chinese dragon...might have been some sort of rare, cross-cultural, "living dinosaur?"  Maybe something that not ONLY the Chinese saw - but some others around the planet too, as well???

 

And there's even a few other varieties of Chinese dragons too.  These (alleged) Hongshan "pig dragon" figurines appear to be Montanoceratops, for instance...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpHgo8BV8MA

So, all these old, dinosaur-like depictions seem pretty cross-cultural.  And the classic Chinese dragon motif seems to typify one of the most common forms of these...a slim-bodied, long-necked, long-tailed reptile up on catlike legs with a frilled or armored head.

Edited July 14, 2017 by gendao

[Starjumper]

12 hours ago, Stosh said:

 

Very cool, did you make that?

[voidisyinyang]

Let's be clear - there are three factors in play here.

 

1) the 4,000 BCE dragon in the grave with the tiger is to indicate Taoist alchemy training, Dragon for east, tiger for west.

 

That's the most important point - it is a very specific alchemy teaching.

 

Now everyone can point out lots of frilly dragons and those are obviously very well known to be the "chimera" dragons - great.

 

But can anyone show those dragons as symbols indicated east with the tiger also together as west - in the same location?

 

2) Now having the real ancient Taoist alchemy principles elucidated - the claim is that what people - Chinese people and others have considered to be a crocodile as a dragon is rejected by some readers here because the clam shell dragon has a neck too long to be a crocodile?

 

Similarly the early Oracle Bone dragon that Chinese people and others consider to be a crocodile is rejected by some readers here because - the character "could be anything"?

 

Let's remember the context of what we are considering here - did people read the link of the book, Tao of the Crocodile? It describes how this 15 foot long Sea Crocodile used to terrorize the Chinese.

 

Now if a 15 foot long monster is attacking humans - do you think maybe it might have a long neck, in relation to say the alligators? Or do you think maybe its depiction as an early Oracle Bone character might show some frills on top or some kind of extra "body" to it? C'mon it's a huge monster crocodile - people are gonna add to it, compared to a normal crocodile image.

 

3) Yes later dragons look different than the crocodile - because the sea crocodile went extinct at an early time. But the key point here is that the real Taoist alchemy training principles originated from the dragon as the crocodile. Now what is fascinating about that is that in Egypt, as I mentioned, it was taught that the crocodile energy had to be absorbed - meaning celibacy. And so the crocodile as dragon is tied to the need to putting the fire under the water so that the water is turned to steam to create the qi energy.

 

So sure you all can keep rejecting the crocodile - but please remember the real alchemy principles that it represents. haha. Keep making excuses of why the crocodile was not the original Dragon - I guess it is kind of shocker.

 

People apparently need "fancy" art work to appreciate the dragon. I don't!  I appreciate the alchemy principles - not the art work. haha.

 

 

[Nungali]

I have met a dragon.

 

I had heard a story that a dragon lived up in the high rocky mountains , so I went there to see for myself . Of course, there were many stories, about how the dragon guarded a treasure, how no one had ever come back , how human bones littered the bottom of the high cliffs,  how, the only ones that ever came back, only saw the dragon from afar, its dark profile crossing the sky, flapping and swooping, off in the distance  and they turned and ran back in fear. 

 

So I climbed up into the far mountains and up in the rocky terrain to get a good view of where the dragon had last been seen . On sunset I saw a dark, huge, fluttering, serpentine, shape, streaming down from the sky, like a deranged bat . Its form spread wide wings and talons forward and it crashed into a nearby rocky pinnacle and began shuffling around and settled in the dark shadows. I couldn't make anything out, darkness was increasing so I decided to retire to a crevasse  I had earlier found and await dawn to watch and see what happened . 

 

But during the night I was awakened by a constant scraping and tearing noise in the distance. I went back out onto the ledge to listen, then a flare of flame lightened the back of the rocky pinnacle where the dragon had landed but I could not see any sign. The the scraping started again followed by the sound of falling rocks. I went back into the crevasse  and tried to sleep but occasionally the  nearby rocks would flicker in  reflected light from distant flames and flares .

 

I awoke at first light and nestled down in a spot between rocks to watch . The Sun rose , and the dragon took off, but from the back of the rocks, from my view, so I only saw its dim form flapping away , behind the pinnacle, over the rocky highlands. I decided to find a better hide, closer, so I could observe without being seen.  I spent the day crossing  terrain, I found another nearby pinnacle where I could see the spot where the dragon had been last night, it had good cover and, as I could see past that spot, out to the sea, the sea wind should mask my scent .   I found a suitable spot with some shelter, made a small camp, and found a nearby observation hide.  Towards sunset I settled myself down in it, hoping the dragon would return to its same spot. 

 

Just before sunset the dragon appeared , suddenly it came cascading down out the sky, spread its wings and fluttered down onto the mountain. It shuffled over to the side and lay there clinging onto the rocks. What a magnificent creature , how can I describe it ? Well, you have all seen the pictures ... imagine the most fantastic ones you have seen all combined together . Its scales shone in a multihued  sheen , scintillating in the golden sunset so I could not be sure what color it was . Actually the shining and reflecting light seemed to be playing tricks of refraction on my eyes. Where it shone upon the rocks nearby the dragon were gold and silver and bronze coloured flashes ... with red , green , yellow and bright white and blue flashes ... or were they reflections of sunset  off the dragon's scales ? 

 

The dragon settled more and appeared to be resting, its breathing got slower. I must have dozed off as I awoke with a start to  the clawing noise , now deafening as I was closer.  The dragon was scurrying about on the rocks, and I have to say, I would never have supposed that a dragon moves in the way they do !  It was nimble and dexterous  with its clawed fingers. Its heard darted around and looked, it seemed very intelligent  and purposeful. But what was it actually doing?  I picked up my telescope and extended it . 

 

It was digging into the rock with its claws,  effectively but delicately  . It seemed to be hollowing out an area into a  hollow shape.   I then noticed that next to where it was working there were other different shapes. They had channels cut into the  sloping smooth rock above them and now, the dragon was making a channel out of the shape it had just finished .  Fascinating !  What strange behavior !    Then it  continued digging out the channel over to the side of the rocks where the smooth wall seemed to have been dug into all over the place , not shapes but random . It was the place where I had early seen the colours reflected on the rocks . But now it was just too dark to see more. The digging and scraping noise continued. Now I could see hardly anything. The noise stopped. I heard the dragon shuffle around then the digging and clawing became much more louder and .... ferocious ... not delicate or 'carving like' at all  .  Then that stopped . 

 

Almost immediately the whole area  burst into light.  The dragon  had let out a massive burst of continuous flame from its nostrils.  And it just kept coming out, like liquid fire, gushing. It hit the  rocks and illuminated the scene. The dragon directed the flame closer onto the rock face and I could see that some of it reflected back as flame illuminated rock, but some seemed a more gold colour ,  and there was a big seam of that. The dragon directed its flaming breath onto it and it began to move ... to flow ... to melt ...  is that gold ?   The running golden stream ran into the channel the dragon had dug down the sloping cliff face and began to fill the shape in the rock it had carved out . When it was full, it clawed around and scrapped at the rocks and flamed its breath and the second shape began to fill up .  Then it scurried back to the seam and blasted that, blasted the channel and so on.  Then it started on the silver seam and that went off to the other side, I noticed there were more shapes there carved into the rock . 

 

Then , I swear by God Almighty ,  that dragon stop up on its two hind legs, and ran across the near vertical rock face, plucked out a red gleaming stone from the nearby still hot rock , clawed it, tapped bits off on the rock and used its teeth to work on it, so quickly,  and danced back and inserted it into a silver cup shaped piece while it  was still glowing with heat .

 

I sat there, amazed watching the dragon dance back and forth nimbly over the  rocks doing all sorts of things illuminated by alternate bursts of its fiery breath and glowing flowing metals and rocks  and glinting gems .

 

Then, when all the carved out shapes were full, it stood back reared up on its back legs spread its magnificent  wings and began beating them in a fanning motion onto the cliff face .  It did this for some time, and then with nimble claws extracted the silver piece with the red stone welded into it  and held it up. I snatched up the telescope to get a close look.  Is that a cup or a chalise .... it was to dim to make out, although by now a bright Moon had arisen . 

 

I watched the dragon prise another piece out and act as if it was actually admiring it, it was golden . It took them off to the side, and again looking through the glass, I saw it enter into a concealed entrance, it disappeared. It must be big in there for something that big to be able to move around in.  Then it came back out, without the pieces , gathered some more and took them in, this continued until all were in the cave . Then the dragon lay down at the entrance to the cave, and appeared to go to sleep. 

 

Well !   What can anyone say about such a thing ! 

 

I decided I would to and await until dawn to decide what to do about all this.  But I lay  there unable to sleep, and I adit my thoughts turned  to wondering how much dragon made treasure was in that cave ? Does the dragon go out every day, only to return  at sunset?   Could I get from here  to there, go into the cave and back to here and   hide, between one dawn and one dusk ?   If so what would I do then ?  ...... What would the dragon do then ? !  

 

I lay there wondering  ..... 

 

Next Episode ;  Do I Steal  Dragon Treasure or Not ? 

 

 

[gendao]

^^ Well, I'm not ruling it out, but saltwater crocodiles (Crocodylus porosus) tend to be wider, flatter, and stubbier.  So, they just don't seem to quite fit the visual description - that has remained remarkably consistent over millenia!

If anything, a smaller freshwater crocodile (Crocodylus johnstoni) would seem a better match.  As they do tend to be thinner and more upright.

But you also have to consider that a lot of Chinese mysticism is actually simply literal.  And Westerners who have yet to experience said phenomena, often attempt to WEIRDsplain it as something that they are already familiar with.  Yet, this is often a mistake...

 

For example, Westerners who have never felt qi, may believe it is actually simply air or electromagnetism, or something...  When in fact, it is actually what Chinese have defined it as - a subtle, "woo woo" bioenergy.  Yes, that is EXACTLY what it is, believe it or not!  It's simply a concept that does not exist AT ALL in modern WEIRD science - and is therefore incomprehensible within that cultural framework!

 

Like, look at this painting of a giraffe by Shen Du in 1414.  It's pretty accurate with not much creative license taken there!  It simply is what it is...  Which if you've never heard of a giraffe before - would thoroughly confuse you.  But if you have, then it would give you an "aha!" moment of instant recognition!

So, what if classical dragons are also the same way?

 

Now, I do think the crocodile hypothesis is still plausible...but it just seems a little off, would require a little shoehorning, and so I'm just not really convinced.  I don't get that "aha!" moment, but more of a, "hmm, mayybbee?"

Edited July 15, 2017 by gendao

[voidisyinyang]

18 minutes ago, gendao said:

 And Westerners who have yet to experience said phenomena, often attempt to WEIRDsplain it as something that they are already familiar with. 

 

umm - next time read the OP links.

 

Quote

Chinese archeologists say studies prove that the crocodile is the prototype of the dragon

Quote

In the 1930s, noted scholar Wei Juxian offered the theory that the crocodile was actually the creature honored by the ancients.

http://en.people.cn/english/200004/29/eng20000429_40001.html

 

Who's doing the WEIRDsplain again?

 

 

So you think that the sea crocodile is too snubby compared to what? Clam shells? and an ancient Oracle Bone character?

 

haha. Seriously. 15 feet is pretty long for a croc - I'm sure details are not that important.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by voidisyinyang

[gendao]

7 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

http://en.people.cn/english/200004/29/eng20000429_40001.html

 

Who's doing the WEIRDsplain again?

But there's still no actual proof there...just more subjective interpretations.  In fact, just in that one article alone, some archeologists believe dragons were crocodiles, and other researchers still believe they were boa constrictors...  So, there's not even a consensus, there.

Quote

But for centuries, no one knew exactly how or where the legend started. Scholars speculated that the ancient Chinese modeled the dragon after the boa constrictor or lightning. In the 1930s, noted scholar Wei Juxian offered the theory that the crocodile was actually the creature honored by the ancients.

The boa constrictor snake was thought to be the dragon prototype about 4,500 years ago. Crocodiles had migrated to south China by then because of changed weather, and the ferocious boa became a common sight in the Yellow River, Zheng said.

He cited the snake-like images of dragons discovered in ancient cultural relics in central and northeast China areas as the basis for his theory about the change in the dragon's ancestry.

He Xingliang, a research fellow with the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences, echoed Zheng's views, saying, "The image of Chinese dragon has evolved through the centuries to finally become a sacred symbol for the whole Chinese nation."

And do note that most of these Chinese guys are still rather Westernized (left-brained, materialist, Mad Scientist) archeologists, academic researchers, etc etc. 

Edited July 15, 2017 by gendao

[voidisyinyang]

1 minute ago, gendao said:

Crocodiles had migrated to south China by then because of changed weather, and the ferocious boa became a common sight in the Yellow River, Zheng said.
 

 

They are stating that the later Chinese dragon is based on the sanke because the crocodile went extinct along the Yellow River, farther north.

[Stosh]

8 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

Very cool, did you make that?

Thanks, yes, its mostly  just the liquify filter and shoving the pixels of a fish around ,

I like the way it looks, but its not so much an example of personal vision .. it just worked out like that.  Im still trying to produce a more classic dragon.. its tougher than I expected it would be. 

[Stosh]

I agree Nungali with what you,  and Gendao, are saying, yep mine is trying to use common motif. I just cant locate  a nice consecutively dated series of early images before appx 1000 BC , which would over time evolve from something identifiable. 

To me it looks like the fengshan bird ,or pig  became stylized apollo fetish embro, and was reborn into the snakey one from there. ...  Someone  Must ! have collated that somewhere, just like you can trace trends in ceramic design. ......... Which might make the most enduring part ,the frill,or mane, evolved from a birds crest!

Edited July 15, 2017 by Stosh