Tai Chi: long form vs short form

[morning dew]

2 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

The difference is the same as between reading a book vs. reading the blurb on the back cover highlighting its plot.  Or between watching a movie vs. watching a trailer to that movie.

 

As the student of the master whose first teacher created several short forms (including the standardized 24 and the 32 taiji sword form) and was instrumental to taiji having been re-legalized and re-embraced in post-Maoist China and propagated worldwide, I believe I am offering an informed opinion.    

 

This sounds fascinating. Would you like to share a bit more about what exactly you feel you gained from longer forms?

[Taomeow]

2 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

This sounds fascinating. Would you like to share a bit more about what exactly you feel you gained from longer forms?

 

More than I can express short of writing a book.  To point out a few benefits:

 

There's an inner logic to the sequence of moves in a traditional form.  This sequence is the outcome of genius coupled with unwavering focus and dedication of many generations (of the Chen family in the past 400 years, to say nothing of the forerunners and later disciples).  The masters knew how qi flows in the body, and designed a series of movements that work on exactly the same flow that is activated naturally during a 24 hour period, reaching peak expression in each consecutive meridian every 2 hour period, in sequence.  Each movement activates each organ of the body in the same sequence, in a time-fractal fashion, and in the long form this cycle of running qi through this "training wheel" is repeated 3 times.

 

Next, the inner logic of the martial application of these moves.  Another name for taiji is "shadow boxing," and for an experienced practitioner this "shadow" is real, and undertakes realistic attacks which you realistically respond to in the long sequence.  In the short, it is very confusing -- what is it that you're doing, and why, and what for?..  Your body and your mind learn a short form by rote, there's no inner necessity to do this and then immediately that...  In the long form, for a beginner, there isn't any either, but as you gain experience, it becomes more and more obvious.  It's not unlike grammar -- there's good grammar and bad grammar, and you gain much better language skills via exposure to good grammar.  Now let me paraphrase this sentence, shorten, simplify, bring closer to the level of the everyday speaker:  "It's, like, you know, grammar...  like, you learn grammar and shit."  You can still vaguely guess at what I mean...  but...

 

Next, the famous "relaxation response" -- modern science asserts it takes a minimum of 12 to 18 continuous minutes to accomplish.  That's the average time it takes to complete the long form at the "normal" taiji pace (mine takes about 17 at regular pace, although a beginner is likely to do it a bit faster.  If I want the kind of relaxation that transforms into deep meditative state, I can do 45.  Which is simultaneously a bone-building, core-building workout.  What else can combine the most strenuous physical activity with the deepest unwavering focus of profound meditation?..  Only the long form done excruciatingly slowly.)

 

Next, the impact on the mind that nothing else can offer.  What kind of impact?  All sorts of things that are the opposite of "spaced out," "brain-foggy," "unaware," "distractible," "mind racing" and so on.  You can do the short form while your mind wanders elsewhere.  You absolutely can't do the long form like that.  Out of the question.  The moment it wanders, you forget where you are and mess things up.  So that's when you know that the goal of uniting the body and the mind demands that the mind stays put where the body is.  This is the most difficult part of the training for many.  The long form places extraordinary demands on awareness and immediately tells you where you're at in this respect, no need to guess, you get accurate information every time.  The short form is too short and you can do it on autopilot while your mind attends to unrelated stuff.

 

To name a few .    

[dwai]

14 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

The long form places extraordinary demands on awareness and immediately tells you where you're at in this respect, no need to guess, you get accurate information every time.  The short form is too short and you can do it on autopilot while your mind attends to unrelated stuff.

 

To name a few .    

Do any mechanical process enough times and the mind will wander

Imho, meditation is in being present irrespective of whether one is twiddling the thumbs or doing a long form...

 

[Taomeow]

8 minutes ago, dwai said:

Do any mechanical process enough times and the mind will wander

Imho, meditation is in being present irrespective of whether one is twiddling the thumbs or doing a long form...

 

 

It's just that "being present" is such a wide umbrella.  What's your left little toe doing right now?  Were you present to that when I asked?  Was it heavier or lighter than the right one?  Warmer or colder?  Did you make it like that on purpose?  What was the purpose? 

 

The long form leads to where you fit so much more under that umbrella.   

[Miffymog]

Just curious, and I know it will be different for different people, but I was wondering ...

 

... how long does the short form and long form take?

 

I've looked through the thread and I've not been able to work this out.

[dwai]

3 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

It's just that "being present" is such a wide umbrella.  What's your left little toe doing right now?  Were you present to that when I asked?  Was it heavier or lighter than the right one?  Warmer or colder?  Did you make it like that on purpose?  What was the purpose? 

 

The long form leads to where you fit so much more under that umbrella.   

When it calls to you, you should answer

 

 

[dwai]

2 hours ago, Miffymog said:

Just curious, and I know it will be different for different people, but I was wondering ...

 

... how long does the short form and long form take?

 

I've looked through the thread and I've not been able to work this out.

When I am done with my single form workout, usually is 50-60 mins. 

[morning dew]

On 2017-7-7 at 2:20 AM, Taomeow said:

 

More than I can express short of writing a book.  To point out a few benefits:

 

...

 

To name a few .    

 

Thanks, that was an outstanding post. It was really interesting to read  

[morning dew]

18 hours ago, Miffymog said:

Just curious, and I know it will be different for different people, but I was wondering ...

 

... how long does the short form and long form take?

 

I've looked through the thread and I've not been able to work this out.

 

Short form (Wu) takes me around 3 to 4 min, but I've been recommended to slow it down to around 5, which seems to be the length most people on yt do it in. I've no idea what the long form takes, although the first part (of three) is basically the short form.

 

Also, when I used to do Yang short form for a little while, I have a feeling it would have taken 15 min and the longer form 40 to 50 min (as it was taught in that class)? I can't remember, to be honest.

[windwalker]

2 hours ago, morning dew said:

Short form (Wu) takes me around 3 to 4 min, but I've been recommended to slow it down to around 5, which seems to be the length most people on yt do it in. I've no idea what the long form takes, although the first part (of three) is basically the short form.

 

some observations

 

I've seen many people practice quiet slowly in playing their taiji.  IMO in most cases this destroys their timing.  The  major taiji family styles Chen, Yang, Wu, ect have addressed this by creating fast forms a mistake IMO. 

 

A mistake because in most cases the movements as done in the fast forms do not have the same qualities that they should have developed in the slow practice.  A good test to see if this is true is to try to play some movements at speed from the slow set and see whether one can do this or not with out changing how the movements are played.  

 

If one is not concerned with usage in a combative sense this may not be an issue. 

 

Just things I've noted over the yrs.  In my own practice there is no fast form, what is down slow can be and is also done fast with no changes other then quickness and speed. 

Edited July 8, 2017 by windwalker

[Starjumper]

2 hours ago, morning dew said:

Short form (Wu) takes me around 3 to 4 min, but I've been recommended to slow it down to around 5, which seems to be the length most people on yt do it in. I've no idea what the long form takes, although the first part (of three) is basically the short form.

 

This is a recommendation I got from one of my tai chi teachers:  Do it 'wrong' sometimes, play around with it, mix it up, do some extremely slowly, where it might take ten or fifteen minutes, which makes it a lot like standing meditation; and do it fast sometimes.  You can also experiment with Chen style methods in which there are accelerations and decelerations, some parts very slow, accelerating into fajin.

 

Grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen added Chen flavor back into his Double Yang style, my teacher added more of that flavor, and I added even more, so some experts say I'm doing it wrong  =)

 

You can also play around with it in other ways, from drunken style to stiff robot style.  Some experts may say this is wrong too but keep in mind it should be an exploration of ways of moving and helps you learn more.

[Seatle185]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

 

This is a recommendation I got from one of my tai chi teachers:  Do it 'wrong' sometimes, play around with it, mix it up, do some extremely slowly, where it might take ten or fifteen minutes, which makes it a lot like standing meditation; and do it fast sometimes.  You can also experiment with Chen style methods in which there are accelerations and decelerations, some parts very slow, accelerating into fajin.

 

Grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen added Chen flavor back into his Double Yang style, my teacher added more of that flavor, and I added even more, so some experts say I'm doing it wrong  =)

 

You can also play around with it in other ways, from drunken style to stiff robot style.  Some experts may say this is wrong too but keep in mind it should be an exploration of ways of moving and helps you learn more.

 

I like this recomendation. Every once in a while i will experiment like this too, i like flowing the form with some music.. i think its good to keep a playful attitude too.  And sometimes we will go through the form and just hold still  like zhan zhuang  every move.

[morning dew]

Thanks, some interesting thoughts here. 

 

Firstly, my main priority is health with tai chi. I'm not sure if I'll ever get to the point physically where I'll be able to think about fighting again; however, it's nice to build that up slowly and have that in reserve in case I do.

 

Secondly, yes, my teacher actually suggested in the mornings that you can run through the form fairly quickly a couple of times as a kind of warm up if you are having difficulties getting started and then slowing it down. Also, we've done it once in class really slowly as well.

 

There probably is merit in playing around with it a bit. It's still too early for me, really, to be messing around like that, though. I've only been doing it this year and only just got to the end of the short form.

Edited July 8, 2017 by morning dew

[CloudHands]

23 hours ago, Taomeow said:

 

It's just that "being present" is such a wide umbrella.  What's your left little toe doing right now?  Were you present to that when I asked?  Was it heavier or lighter than the right one?  Warmer or colder?  Did you make it like that on purpose?  What was the purpose? 

 

Presently you had me producing some particular vocalisation called laugh