Tai Chi: long form vs short form

[morning dew]

I'm reaching the end of my Wu short form and was curious as to what the differences are between the long and short forms in any style of Tai Chi. 

 

What's the difference between doing the long form a couple of times in the morning or the short form five or six times, for example. What extra do you gain from the long form? Extra health benefits? More martial arts techniques/applications? Better unblocking of channels? Better development of internal alchemy? Something else I can't think of?  

 

 

[Marblehead]

I like your questions.  I hope you get lots of responses.

 

[Chang]

The Long Form in any given style of Tai Chi is complete, in itself, for the purpose it was created.

 

It would be well at this point to state what exactly a Tai Chi  Form does. The answer is twofold. The Form is a means of practicing correct stance and posture and re educating the body as regards correct movement. Secondly the Tai Chi Form is a series of possibilities in martial applications.

 

The complete Long Form was designed for this purpose. Unfortunately we live in an age where the many desire simplification, not being prepared to put in the hours and the effort to learn a given art. Hence the shortening and simplification of traditional Forms to save time in both the learning and the practice and to boost the feeling of accomplishment.

 

Unfortunately claims that the shortened version fullfills all that the Long Form does are erroneous. The wise will always seek a system that teaches complete forms and is part and parcel of a whole system of both martial, health and spiritual arts.

 

In the modern world few are prepared to invest the time and effort required to learn the Taoist Arts correctly and so fail to reap the rewards that come from such dedication. Simply learning to perform a set of movements is a very small accomplishment though most fail to get beyond this stage.

[Starjumper]

I learned the Yang style double long form created by grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen.  It is called a double form because it includes the mirror image of the original form, which is all 'right handed'.  It has six sections, with the first section being very slow and the sixth section being very fast.  I dropped out of my tai chi class after a couple of years, after learning it well according to my teacher (he wanted me to teach it) in order to focus on my chi kung.

 

I returned a couple of years later, and during the time I was gone I mainly practiced section one, which in our system is double sided and twice as long, sometimes I did sections one and two.  When I returned my teacher told me that my tai chi had improved well.  I told him I had only been practicing section one, and he said:

 

Quote

All you really need is section one because it contains all the principles and ways of moving, the other sections contain mostly variations and elaborations of the movements you find in section one.

 

I'm fairly certain that the chi kung also helped to improve my tai chi.

 

So there you have it.  The important thing is how many minutes you practice each day.  You can do a long form once or a short form several times.

 

BUT, and that's a big but, isn't it.  it would be good to learn a  long form even if you mainly practice a short form, and you would want to be learning from a teacher who also knows the long form so you know that they aren't WMCA grade teachers or a tai chi version this:

 

 

[windwalker]

3 hours ago, morning dew said:

I'm reaching the end of my Wu short form and was curious as to what the differences are between the long and short forms in any style of Tai Chi. 

 

What's the difference between doing the long form a couple of times in the morning or the short form five or six times, for example. What extra do you gain from the long form? Extra health benefits? More martial arts techniques/applications? Better unblocking of channels? Better development of internal alchemy? Something else I can't think of?  

 

 

 

Most modern teachers use an abridged type of training for many different reasons.  For most I feel its kind of test to see if one can actually catch the idea before spending a lot of time with them..in the case of the 24 step for example it was meant to give a standard by which others could judge them by.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-form_tai_chi_chuan

 

One should understand that the practice org. was done with single movements and then linked together after one had gained the skill of the movement.  If you know and do the opening of the from well,  its enough...all of taiji comes from this movement. 

 

Its not a matter of more as in doing more,  its a matter of doing less,  the less has to be correct, very correct....this is the hard part....

 

which is why many do and seek more, feeling they get or know something from this.  

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by windwalker

[morning dew]

2 hours ago, Chang said:

The Long Form in any given style of Tai Chi is complete, in itself, for the purpose it was created.

 

It would be well at this point to state what exactly a Tai Chi  Form does. The answer is twofold. The Form is a means of practicing correct stance and posture and re educating the body as regards correct movement. Secondly the Tai Chi Form is a series of possibilities in martial applications.

 

The complete Long Form was designed for this purpose. Unfortunately we live in an age where the many desire simplification, not being prepared to put in the hours and the effort to learn a given art. Hence the shortening and simplification of traditional Forms to save time in both the learning and the practice and to boost the feeling of accomplishment.

 

Unfortunately claims that the shortened version fullfills all that the Long Form does are erroneous. The wise will always seek a system that teaches complete forms and is part and parcel of a whole system of both martial, health and spiritual arts.

 

In the modern world few are prepared to invest the time and effort required to learn the Taoist Arts correctly and so fail to reap the rewards that come from such dedication. Simply learning to perform a set of movements is a very small accomplishment though most fail to get beyond this stage.

 

Thanks, very interesting.

 

Quote

It would be well at this point to state what exactly a Tai Chi  Form does. The answer is twofold. The Form is a means of practicing correct stance and posture and re educating the body as regards correct movement. Secondly the Tai Chi Form is a series of possibilities in martial applications.

So with this paragraph here we could say a couple of things, perhaps? Beginning with the second factor, martial applications, we could say the long form prepares you for more situations? With the short form you may be missing out on how to deal with attacks from a particular direction or type (grapple, kick, punch, grab), or how to attack from a certain direction or side (you may only know how to strike with the right hand, or may have no kicks at all)?

 

With the first factor, practising correct stance and posture and re-educating the body as regards correct movement, this would be more related to health, both physically and energetically (chi flow)? If you only do the short form, you would not be opening your body physically (muscles) or certain channels energetically?

[morning dew]

1 hour ago, Earl Grey said:

I recommend you read Waysun Liao's Tai Chi Classics as well to get more insight on this, especially with what was written about what Yang taught the Qing courts and why he did so. 

 

Thanks. Can I get away with this version or should I aim for the full one?

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Essence-Tai-Chi-Selections-Classics/dp/1590305094/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1499175927&sr=8-2&keywords=Waysun+Liao's+Tai+Chi+Classics

[windwalker]

2 hours ago, Chang said:

Unfortunately claims that the shortened version fullfills all that the Long Form does are erroneous. The wise will always seek a system that teaches complete forms and is part and parcel of a whole system of both martial, health and spiritual arts.

 

interesting, why is more, more complete?  

how would one know that there is more

 

What you may be refering to is "time" In which case some teachers

have suggested that one can always do the form multiple times, or slow it down 

to achieve the same training effect. 

 

"Unfortunately claims that the shortened version fullfills all that the Long Form does are erroneous."

 

an interesting statement, what would say to someone who learned the 37 step for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch'ing  would you claim that his knowledge was incomplete

 

what would it be that one is trying to fulfill   

questions asked out of curiosity

 

 

 

 

[Aetherous]

The truth is that the long form takes a longer amount of time due to having more moves, and the short form takes a shorter amount of time due to having less moves. That's all.

[morning dew]

1 hour ago, Starjumper said:

I learned the Yang style double long form created by grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen.  It is called a double form because it includes the mirror image of the original form, which is all 'right handed'.  It has six sections, with the first section being very slow and the sixth section being very fast.  I dropped out of my tai chi class after a couple of years, after learning it well according to my teacher (he wanted me to teach it) in order to focus on my chi kung.

 

I returned a couple of years later, and during the time I was gone I mainly practiced section one, which in our system is double sided and twice as long, sometimes I did sections one and two.  When I returned my teacher told me that my tai chi had improved well.  I told him I had only been practicing section one, and he said:

 

 

I'm fairly certain that the chi kung also helped to improve my tai chi.

 

So there you have it.  The important thing is how many minutes you practice each day.  You can do a long form once or a short form several times.

 

BUT, and that's a big but, isn't it.  it would be good to learn a  long form even if you mainly practice a short form, and you would want to be learning from a teacher who also knows the long form so you know that they aren't WMCA grade teachers or a tai chi version this:

 

 

 

Thanks, fascinating as always.  

 

Double sided helps in terms of martial arts applications, and opening the body physically and energetically?

 

As for Gandhi video: LOL!  

 

Yeah, that's good advice. My teacher does know the long form and also martial arts applications. He's been doing around nine years on Wu style (I think); he's in the BKF system. That's plenty for me as a newbie. 

[windwalker]

2 hours ago, morning dew said:

BUT, and that's a big but, isn't it.  it would be good to learn a  long form even if you mainly practice a short form, and you would want to be learning from a teacher who also knows the long form so you know that they aren't WMCA grade teachers or a tai chi version this:

 

it would be good to learn from a teacher that "knows" taiji 

the level of the teacher depends on level of student. 

 

In most cases a PhD level student will tend to find a phd-level teacher. 

 

if one is a newbie, it matters little who one learns from until they build up 

their "own" understanding and seek the art through this

 

Edited July 4, 2017 by windwalker

[morning dew]

47 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

Most modern teachers use an abridged type of training for many different reasons.  For most I feel its kind of test to see if one can actually catch the idea before spending a lot of time with them..in the case of the 24 step for example it was meant to give a standard by which others could judge them by.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24-form_tai_chi_chuan

 

One should understand that the practice org. was done with single movements and then linked together after one had gained the skill of the movement.  If you know and do the opening of the from well,  its enough...all of taiji comes from this movement. 

 

Its not a matter of more as in doing more,  its a matter of doing less,  the less has to be correct, very correct....this is the hard part....

 

which is why many do and seek more, feeling they get or know something from this.  

 

 

Thanks, very interesting.

 

Quote

 If you know and do the opening of the from well,  its enough...all of taiji comes from this movement. 

 

Can you expand on this a little bit please? I've heard my teacher mention this as well. What exactly does that mean? I'm assuming you're not talking about the martial arts side. You're talking about posture/relaxation/(energetic) flow?

Edited July 4, 2017 by morning dew

[windwalker]

Just now, morning dew said:

Can you expand on this a little bit please? I've heard my teacher mentioned this as well. What exactly does that mean? I'm assuming you're not talking about the martial arts side. You're talking about posture/relaxation/(energetic) flow?

 

everything comes from this. If your teacher mentioned this then he/she should be the one 

showing you directly....

[Chang]

14 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

interesting, why is more, more complete?  

how would one know that there is more

 

It is important to point out that the Tai Chi Form is only one part of what should be a complete system of both health and martial arts. Sadly many persons consider that the Form is the be all and end all of practice. This is not the case. It can then go from bad to worse when the form is condensed.

 

14 minutes ago, windwalker said:

 

What you may be refering to is "time" In which case some teachers

have suggested that one can always do the form multiple times, or slow it down 

to achieve the same training effect. 

 

"Unfortunately claims that the shortened version fullfills all that the Long Form does are erroneous."

 

an interesting statement, what would say to someone who learned the 37 step for example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheng_Man-ch'ing  would you claim that his knowledge was incomplete

 

what would it be that one is trying to fulfill   

questions asked out of curiosity

 

As regards Cheng Man Ching and his simplified form we have a further dilemma. His short form was developed from the already simplified Tai Chi Form devised by Yang Chengfu who considered the more dynamic style of his Grandfather Yang Luchan too complex for the masses. It is not hard to see that we now have adulteration upon adulteration

 

The Yang Chengfu form was also devised for health rather than martial arts ( Chengfu hated the idea that the Chinese were then considered the sick men of asia) and so the baby has gone out with the bathwater.

 

[windwalker]

Just now, Chang said:

As regards Cheng Man Ching and his simplified form we have a further dilemma. His short form was developed from the already simplified Tai Chi Form devised by Yang Chengfu who considered the more dynamic style of his Grandfather Yang Luchan too complex for the masses. It is not hard to see that we now have adulteration upon adulteration

 

The Yang Chengfu form was also devised for health rather than martial arts ( Chengfu hated the idea that the Chinese were then considered the sick men of asia) and so the baby has gone out with the bathwater.

 

 

How do you "know" this 

 

is it from reading, or do  you "know" 

again asked from curiosity 

 

If indeed you do "know" I will refrain from saying anymore on this thread and let others deffer to you.

luck in training..

 

 

[Starjumper]

Grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen said that the deeper aspects of the art are being steadily hidden and lost and that even the top masters of today are like hollow shells compared to masters of the past.

[Chang]

I practiced Yang Style for a number of year in my younger days. The details of the development of the form are all recorded.

Chengfu was the creator of the yang style that we know today. The old Yang Luchan style has pretty much died out, though it is still possible to find teachers and practitioners.

 

Chengfu popularised Tai Chi for the masses but to my mind left an adulterated style.

 

Chengfu had an older brother Yang Shou-Hou and he continued to teach his Grandfathers form. Unfortunately Shou-Hou was a brutal and demanding teacher who failed to pass the art on to more than a handful of students. Hence the lack of teachers of the old style to this day. I no longer partake of the Yang Style myself and would not recommend it were there an alternative style to choose.

[Chang]

35 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

Grandmaster Tchoung Ta Tchen said that the deeper aspects of the art are being steadily hidden and lost and that even the top masters of today are like hollow shells compared to masters of the past.

 

It is sadly true that things are not what they were but I would have to disagree that the wisdom of the past is being hidden or lost.

 

Never has so much information been available or so many opportunities open.

 

The problem is really one of information overload linked with lack of discipline and commitment. In the past Masters lived their art and reaped the benefits from practice. Today we live in a world of distractions where students feel themselves oppressed if they cannot spend eight hours a day on their smartphone. Patience is lacking in the majority who want instant gratification with the minimum of effort. It is all rather sad and pathetic.

[windwalker]

1 hour ago, Chang said:

I practiced Yang Style for a number of year in my younger days. The details of the development of the form are all recorded.  Chengfu was the creator of the yang style that we know today. The old Yang Luchan style has pretty much died out, though it is still possible to find teachers and practitioners.

 

I would suggest that if one is still looking for the "old yang luchan style"  maybe they don't quite get it...

 

 

 

 

 

[Seatle185]

Here is a quote from way of the saint you might find interesting 

 

" returning home to the U.S. I put aside all my previous taiji instruction and practiced only the few things grandmaster yang had taught me. What prompted me to make this turnabout in training was a stroy i had heard in which his father perfected an essential aspect of his taiji skill by practicing only the 4 basic moves of grasp the birds tail. The real essence of a martial arts practice, it seemed, could be grasped more readily by going deeply into a short chain of moves than by practicing the entire set with only mediocre understanding." 

 

My teacher also told us that the opening and grasp the birds tail are the most important, if you can master that you can master the rest of the moves with ease. 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, Chang said:

 

It is sadly true that things are not what they were but I would have to disagree that the wisdom of the past is being hidden or lost.

 

Never has so much information been available or so many opportunities open.

 

The problem is really one of information overload linked with lack of discipline and commitment. In the past Masters lived their art and reaped the benefits from practice. Today we live in a world of distractions where students feel themselves oppressed if they cannot spend eight hours a day on their smartphone. Patience is lacking in the majority who want instant gratification with the minimum of effort. It is all rather sad and pathetic.

 

I agree, that is a big part of it.  I've posted this graph here before and it explains the situation pretty well.  You could even think of  it as a kind of yin yang diagram.

 

 

It's just that the numbers are sliding in the way of worse, or less.  Take for example Cheng Man Chin, he was the only one on the continent advanced enough to play push hands with Tchoung Ta Tchen, who lived in Vancouver Canada, so they would take turns traveling from one coast to the other to get together to visit and practice.  This is what my main Yang tai chi teacher said about Cheng.   "He became depressed because none of his students in New York got 'it' so he returned to China and drank himself to death.", but don't tell that to any of his NY students   Specially the ones who use Cheng's name for marketing.  Therefore anyone looking for top level Yang style would want to find one of Tchoung's students in the Vancouver area, but a lot of them have probably retired by now.  

 

Concerning the graph above, Bruce Lee said  "95% of kung fu teachers are offering only commercial bullshit, and of the remaining five percent half of them are trying hard but don't know anything."  That is a bit harsh but I think a similar trend exists in tai chi.

 

Those few masters who are top level are the kind that aren't going to be found by people looking at advertisements on the web or who have big classes open to the public.  

 

The best solution, for me personally, was to learn Chen style, the original flavor of tai chi.  The new Chen grandmaster Chen Xiaowang said that past masters were simplifying even the Chen style so he reversed that trend by making it more complicated, more like the original.  Yang Chenfu is in my lineage but I can't recall if it's on Tchoung's side or Mr. Yueng's side.  Here's one example of how it works sometimes (wing chun example)  Mr. Yueng was the star of the Chinese opera (Monkey King) and was a Red Boat Wing Chun master ... among other things.  Mr. Yueng taught wing chun to Bruce, and Bruce taught it to Jesse Glover, and once upon a time Jesse went to Hong Kong to play with the top wing chun guy there, can't recall his name.  The Hong Kong master was not able to hit Jesse, but Jesse could hit the other at will.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Starjumper

[Starjumper]

4 hours ago, morning dew said:

Double sided helps in terms of martial arts applications, and opening the body physically and energetically?

 

Not sure.  His main motivation was simply that Yang style was lopsided and was therefore incomplete, of course it helps with physical development.   Once one of my tai chi brothers went back to the Eastern half of the US and went to a class given by a 'master' there and mentioned the double style.  The teacher said that if you do 'the other side' that it will make your energy run backwards and you will die.  In response the brother told him he had been doing it for many years, and he appeared to be in fine health.  So the teacher stopped class and drove off in a huff.  We've heard of that type of vehicle, yes?  The Huff?

 

Quote

Yeah, that's good advice. My teacher does know the long form and also martial arts applications. He's been doing around nine years on Wu style (I think); he's in the BKF system. That's plenty for me as a newbie. 

 

I think the best reason for learning the long form is that it keeps you learning and getting feedback from the teacher for much longer.  I suppose that plenty of people would learn a quicky short form and then quit learning, supposing that they are then experts, particularly if they learn it from someone who only knows the short form.

 

Someone already beat me to it, but I was going to say, and still am, that for combat you only need to learn a few moves well and practice them a lot ... with a partner.

Edited July 4, 2017 by Starjumper

[morning dew]

2 minutes ago, Seatle185 said:

Here is a quote from way of the saint you might find interesting 

 

" returning home to the U.S. I put aside all my previous taiji instruction and practiced only the few things grandmaster yang had taught me. What prompted me to make this turnabout in training was a stroy i had heard in which his father perfected an essential aspect of his taiji skill by practicing only the 4 basic moves of grasp the birds tail. The real essence of a martial arts practice, it seemed, could be grasped more readily by going deeply into a short chain of moves than by practicing the entire set with only mediocre understanding." 

 

My teacher also told us that the opening and grasp the birds tail are the most important, if you can master that you can master the rest of the moves with ease. 

 

Thanks, very interesting  I was just going over my notes trying to remember which of the moves was 'grasp the bird's tail'. It seems to be between 'single peng right' and 'single whip', and it involves the clockwise and anticlockwise arm/hand rotations and the spinning right palm strike, etc. Did your teacher expand on exactly which bits of this sequence made it so important and how?

[doc benway]

3 hours ago, morning dew said:

So with this paragraph here we could say a couple of things, perhaps? Beginning with the second factor, martial applications, we could say the long form prepares you for more situations? With the short form you may be missing out on how to deal with attacks from a particular direction or type (grapple, kick, punch, grab), or how to attack from a certain direction or side (you may only know how to strike with the right hand, or may have no kicks at all)?

 

 

Caution - learning postures from a taijiquan routine and practicing them repeatedly, whether fast or slow, prepares you for nothing martially, absolutely nothing. Doing postures from the form in a martial situation is not what taijiquan is about. The form is designed to teach us to integrate the mental and physical dimensions of our experience in movement and cultivates two fundamental skills - power generation and mastery of the circle. Those are the hallmarks of taijiquan skill. As the Chen masters say: train the body [I'll add... and mind], not the tricks! Ultimately we do not rely on postures and specific techniques but energies - folding, plucking, sensing, tearing, leading to void, etc...  Sure, we can always talk about the martial meaning inherent in the postures but that is not really the point, that is an intellectual exercise, especially in the early stages. Once we know how to manipulate the energy, then we can plumb the forms for all sorts of obvious, hidden, and secret techniques. We can find applications in any and all forms of body movement, be it artistic or martial in intent.

 

What the long form does do is gives us additional ways of connecting with the energetic characteristics of more postures and, most importantly, the transitions. It also allows us to continue in that place of mental/physical integration for longer periods of time without interruption. Doing the shorter form multiple times is a little different than doing one continuous form for a much longer time. The short forms emphasize the basics, long forms add variations. All of it training the body/mind to work in an integrated fashion. If you are interested in martial application of taijiquan you need a teacher who knows how to teach you the specific methods of training to develop the circle, footwork, striking, body strengthening and toughening, qin na, shuai jiao, fa jin methods, and how to drill all of this so that you can make it really work. This means dozens (if not hundreds) of drills with partners, use of training equipment, push hands training, and so forth. Taijiquan is only a comprehensive and effective fighting art if it is taught as such, and that is a rare phenomenon. 

 

 

3 hours ago, morning dew said:

With the first factor, practising correct stance and posture and re-educating the body as regards correct movement, this would be more related to health, both physically and energetically (chi flow)? If you only do the short form, you would not be opening your body physically (muscles) or certain channels energetically?

 

All of the training (posture, movement, mental integration, etc...) has health value but those very characteristics that are beneficial to health are training the body/mind to generate integrated power. You can get that from the long or short forms but as described previously, there are some advantages to practicing longer forms. Short forms are best for competition and practitioners who don't have the time, patience, or proclivity to commit to the full routines. 

 

As alluded to by Starjumper above, I would also highly recommend that anyone practicing taijiquan teach themselves to do the form in mirror image, especially if not working on the individual techniques regularly with partner drills, strengthening methods, and so forth. We were never taught the form in mirror image and I once asked my teacher why the form was so unbalanced. His response was, do you mean to tell me that you haven't figured out that you should be practicing both sides?! Fortunately, I'd already been working on that and could demonstrate for him. 

[windwalker]

4 minutes ago, steve said:

As alluded to by Starjumper above, I would also highly recommend that anyone practicing taijiquan teach themselves to do the form in mirror image,

 

Do you feel your body is  balanced in this way? is the left and right the same a mirror image.