What's your Tai Chi (short) form like?

[morning dew]

22 hours ago, Taomeow said:

This is my short form, Chen Laojia Erlu, aka Cannon Fist.  Still working on that jump at 1:45.  

 

 

 

Woah, I stand corrected. I thought Steve's short frame Chen video was really martial but this is even wilder.

 

I've never seen anything like this in Tai Chi before. It looks quite amazing.

 

PS Yeah, that jump looks pretty tough, especially with the punch done right as well at the end of it.

Edited July 16, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

23 hours ago, Seatle185 said:

 

 

Now this is fascinating. I've not seen this Beijing-rotating-dan-tien Chen style before. Anyone want to comment on this or does anyone even do this?

[dwai]

3 hours ago, flowing hands said:

 This is the usual stuff quoted by many who practice so called 'internal arts'. That's why the Great Tai Ji Master lasted ten seconds with the MMA guy. There is no such thing as internal and external. Think about it, it doesn't make any sense. But a whole lot of stuff has been grown up around making a difference and almost snob value put upon so called 'internal arts' being able to develop so called 'internal power' and better sensitivity, that somehow so called 'external arts 'can't and are somewhat inferior? Complete rubbish. There are literally thousands of styles of Chinese Martial art and all have elements of varying practices that could be labelled internal or external. Wing Quan for instance, 'sticking hands'; is this not sensitivity training? Developing speed, power, jin and sensitivity is the aim. Iron palm gives the practitioner the edge that can be devastating. A mere touch from the trained hands can be deadly. People who train iron palm, and their internal power, have to be very careful in every day life; a mere poke in fun to your friend could lead to extensive internal damage. The internal power comes from where? They are so called external arts so where does this power come from?

I have to disagree with you @flowing hands. My Master was a Green Dragon Society (hardcore external kung fu, with hard qigong type stuff in there - these guys really knew how to brawl back in the 70s...from what i hear)  senior master when he first encountered Tai chi (Master Waysun Liao). Master Liao asked him to strike him anywhere, as a demo. As he struck Master Liao with a liver kite, ML just turned on golden bell and my Master went flying 15-20 ft upon contact (i.e. his strike contacting Master Liao). He had to give up the external stuff and learnt tai chi.

 

I'm not kidding you when I tell you that he has power. I've not encountered power like his from anyone else (and I've been fa-jin'ed by a few people since I met him). Daoist martial arts are not like external martial arts. Especially with an art like taijiquan, without giving up external strength, one cannot develop real internal power (empty force). If we are practicing taijiquan and then going and pumping weights and doing push ups etc, we can't develop the power and sensitivity that taijiquan is famous for...

 

[Starjumper]

1 hour ago, morning dew said:

 

Now this is fascinating. I've not seen this Beijing-rotating-dan-tien Chen style before. Anyone want to comment on this or does anyone even do this?

 

Sure, I'll comment, and I do it.  It's in the Chen form, and with some Chen players it's more hidden than others , but they all should have it, even including Yang style, but in there it's really hidden, so well hidden that for some it's lost.  In the video it looks like some of that rotation of the belly is not needed for the particular move, but sometimes a belly movement can manifest in a very small circle movement with a lot of power.  The way Gao Fu taught was that the tan tien should always move with the dominant hand, and if it ever stops moving then you're doing it wrong.  We had exercise to do that were just rolling the belly with hands over tan tien or near to it, which is an excellent training method.  Gao Fu would even do it in her sleep.

 

Since we've been talking about master Feng I found a video of him doing a Chen form.  it isn't a short form but you can make it short by just watching part of it .  If you look at him and some others you should be able to see the belly always moving.  Gao Fu had us focus on that so we did it a bit more, which maybe you can see in my video with Tiger and Squeeky.  Here's Feng

 

 

Here's more Feng, you can see how happy he is that he didn't have to teach Bruce.

 

 

Edited July 17, 2017 by Starjumper

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Fangshi said:

 

Also, this makes no sense whatsoever if you look into history. Masters like Yang Lu Chan (you know, real accomplished masters, forced by the emperor to teach the elite troups), were known to be pretty 'brutal' in training, with lot's of strong external heavy training.

They were not using li.

[dwai]

1 hour ago, Fangshi said:

 

The whole point about this is, when you reach a certain stage, internally (by lack of words), you can up your power by external training. AFTER the original training, ie. zhan zhuang and the basics.

External training is not what you think though, it's practising your taijiquan, like normal, but using those 'gravity' forces to carry or handle big weight.

 

I don't speak english as native language, it's hard to explain.

 

To give one real life example, Starjumper is talking about Feng Zhiqiang.

Feng Zhiqiang became famous 'overnight', while working in a factory, by 'catching' a motor weighing 500 kilos that was about to drop of the manufacturing line unto a co-worker.

 

This is the interview:

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/FZQinterview.html

If Master Feng zhiqiang used his muscular strength to catch the 599 kg motor, he would not be famous for being a taiji master. He did not use li. 

Dont mistake jin for external force. The Jin is developed by "soft" training not by lifting weights

[dwai]

11 minutes ago, Fangshi said:

 

My point was, when one gets to certain levels of internal, one can up his 'force' with 'external' methods.
...Again, like holding a stone ball, or holding a 60 kilo pole during practise.... like the accomplished masters of the old did.

I don't doubt that. But that is not using muscular strength

[doc benway]

I'd like to see the mods split off the trollish baiting and derailment in this thread.

 

[Kar3n]

7 minutes ago, steve said:

I'd like to see the mods split off the trollish baiting and derailment in this thread.

 

Split to-

 

[doc benway]

Thanks Kar3n!

[dwai]

4 minutes ago, Fangshi said:

 

Haha but that I never said either

 

They do or did however succefully merged the two, in my opinion.

 

But what is muscular force? The outward muscle? The smaller muscles? The bone? The sinew? The tendon? Or is that the same as the sinew??

So is training all that is a no go in your school?

We need to muscles to maintain the structure. That's the extent of it. In our system we don't train with weights. However, we do train in weapons like the broadsword, staff, spear and jian. Each of these have a different way to use the jin to run through the forms. Especially the broadswords which can be pretty heavy.

I'm yet to meet someone who has more power than Master Liao or my Master, Master Jose Perez. They do refer to old masters from taiwan and china who were unknown (not popular) but had unbelievable power. 

[Starjumper]

5 hours ago, steve said:

Here is a nice video of a Wu fast form:

 

 

That's really good.  I'm in love   

 

That form has good energy, it has the variations in speed and the accelerations, it has small and large circle, a lot like Chen style.  I would say it's more like Chen than Yang style.  It has the Starjumper seal of approval.  Thanks.

[morning dew]

20 hours ago, Fangshi said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSnob4PTJKo

 

This is awesome. He's very graceful and flowing.  

 

What exactly is Tung Hu Ling? Is this a style of Tai Chi? Or a particular lineage of a major style?

[Starjumper]

11 hours ago, Fangshi said:

At such a stage, you can put 'pressure', or strenghten the energy, and vessles by doing practise with heavy weights.

Not like a body builder, but like carrying a heavy object, you know...

 

Here I am again, drinking, music, 4.15 am, surfing the daobums And it is so cool once in a while, I learn alot from this by interacting It's fun.

 

Have a great night homeys,

 

You must have lots of energy to sty up late like that, but late the alcohol kicks in and the sleep comes.  My teacher told me that if you have too much energy and can't go to sleep then take a spoonful of whiskey ... and put it on a washcloth next to your pillow.

 

Concerning the weight training, what I was advised and recommend is to do your tai chi/chi kung and/or daily routine while wearing wrist weights and/or ankle weights.  This prevents the 'ugly face' weightlifter syndrome.  Back when I was in the US I would see magazines in stores that were about weight training, and the musclebound guys would have incredibly strained and ugly looks on their faces, like they were about to pop a blood vessel any minute, and I'll bet some of them do too.  Steroids and stuff make it worse.

[Starjumper]

13 hours ago, dwai said:

Dont mistake jin for external force. The Jin is developed by "soft" training not by lifting weights

 

From what I was told, hard muscles and heavy weight training will make very fast movement impossible, and from my own attempts at doing a one inch punch I've found that the only way is if you start from a position of absolute softness and relaxation.  The explosive movement is extremely brief and the kind of muscles that need training are called fast twitch muscles. Training slow twitch muscles just slows you down ... unless you use very small weights like wrist weights during training.

[morning dew]

19 hours ago, dwai said:

I'm not an analyzer but I would like to point out that the bagua video and the tai chi video are separated by many years (bagua one is older). In between that, I think Bruce underwent several accidents and broke his back and put on weight etc. From what i've heard, its almost a miracle that he is able to do tai chi again (and testament to the healing power of the internal arts).

 

That said, one of my taiji brothers attended a seminar by Bruce at Chicago last year (or was it this year). The feeling he got was that Bruce does a lot of talking (down) at people. I've been influenced by Bruce's books initially in my tai chi training. However, if he indeed was condescending like what I've heard him being described as being, I don't think I'd enjoy taking direct lessons from him.

 

That being said, who knows how our consciousness interprets someone else's personality. I know I've been wrong about people a few times and I'm pretty sure people have been wrong about me as well...

 

 

Yeah, he would have broken his back several times in between the two videos. That's a fair point.

 

Yes, I've heard similar stories. I'm not sure I'd want to train with him directly either, if they are true.

 

It's interesting you say you were initially influenced by his books. Was it Opening the Energy Gates? Do you have things like outer dissolving in Temple style? I suppose strictly speaking outer dissolving isn't in Wu style either, so maybe not a great question.

 

17 hours ago, Starjumper said:

 

OK, analysis, the tai chi is plenty bad, no doubt about that.  The Bagua is good but nothing extraordinary.  In the demo with Sam Masich keep in mind that the attacker is always at a disadvantage (as long as there is proper separation), and when they come running at you they are at a much greater disadvantage.  In tai chi it's called giving yourself away. or giving them a gift. in addition to that Sam was 'allowing' the demonstration to go forward by allowing Bruce to do his technique.  You can be sure that if it was Bruce giving himself away and running at Sam then Sam could have put him down and controlled the situation just as easily, and less brutally too.  Which brings up the subject of:

 

Brutality.  Bruce brutality, it's his nature.  When he went to China looking for a tai chi teacher he went around to different schools of tai chi brutally beating up some old men.  In tai chi you can control and dominate someone without brutally beating them up, specially if they are old men.  The he went another teacher, Inot certain but I'm pretty sure it was Feng Zhiqiang, my grandfather Chen teacher.  He tried to get brutal with Feng so Feng mopped the floor with him ... without brutally beating him up.  So Bruce found his teacher, or so he thought.  However he didn't respectfully ask to be accepted as a student, it was more like - ok now I'm going to be your student.  Feng almost frew up on the spot, but what he did is he moved his class to a new location and accidentally forgot to tell Bruce where that was.  YAAhahaha.

 

The student I have who was his student told me about the chi kung there and it seemed to mostly consist of small movements  holding a small ball around the solar plexus and tan tien areas.  Super wimpy.

 

So Bruce wrote some books early on when the public was clamoring for them and became a haughty rich guy, haughtier than before probably.   Way back when chi kung was unknown and there were no books except for those from Moretalk Chia, any books were much sought after,  Now there appear to be thousands of books

 

Yeah, some interesting points in the first paragraph. I think I would have liked to have seen him approaching Sam Masich as well. I'm not quite sure why it was so one-sided.

 

As for the rest, quite amusing, especially the Feng story if it's true lol

 

Also 'Moretalk Chia'  I'm guessing he's another one you're not a fan of.  

Edited July 17, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

18 hours ago, steve said:

 

I'm no expert in Wu style. Also, there are a few variations.

 

Here is a nice video of a Wu fast form:

 

 

And another nice older demo, the form starts at 2:40

 

 

Woah, that first video blew me away. It's probably my favourite one so far on here. She's amazing.  

 

That second one was very interesting. It's very similar to what we do (although he seemed to stop a bit short and miss a few bits out unless he was doing them differently).

[dwai]

21 minutes ago, Starjumper said:

 

From what I was told, hard muscles and heavy weight training will make very fast movement impossible, and from my own attempts at doing a one inch punch I've found that the only way is if you start from a position of absolute softness and relaxation.  The explosive movement is extremely brief and the kind of muscles that need training are called fast twitch muscles. Training slow twitch muscles just slows you down ... unless you use very small weights like wrist weights during training.

Just doing zhuang gong is sufficient to build fascia strength. Strong fascia will help us carry heavy loads (Like someone's entire body weight landing on our body, etc). 

 

A lot of the bouncy-bouncy stuff people do relies on a full-body integrated Fascial network. 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, morning dew said:

It's interesting you say you were initially influenced by his books. Was it Opening the Energy Gates? Do you have things like outer dissolving in Temple style? I suppose strictly speaking outer dissolving isn't in Wu style either, so maybe not a great question.

I read his "Opening the Energy Gates" but really liked his "Inner and outer dissolving books - The great stillness and Relaxing into your being. This was still early on in my tai chi practice, and I was very intrigued by the stories in his books.

 

In temple style we have a completely different way of "dissolving". We dissolve into emptiness but not how BKF presents it - that is a lot of "doing".  We drain stuff we don't need into the ground (there is both the "doing way" and the "not doing way"). In our way (after a certain point in practice maturation) we let go of volition to do things - we do by "not doing". 

 

By "not doing" means we hold a posture and let things happen as they happen. This doesn't work at the beginner level because there has to be a certain level of relaxation/sung that needs to develop for it to work. Also, in our system, more than verbal transmission there is energetic transmission of "knowledge". That's why a real teacher is necessary to learn from.  One can do preparatory work by following videos (or very rarely, by following books). But without the transmission, the essence of the system cannot be learnt.

[flowing hands]

17 hours ago, dwai said:

I have to disagree with you @flowing hands. My Master was a Green Dragon Society (hardcore external kung fu, with hard qigong type stuff in there - these guys really knew how to brawl back in the 70s...from what i hear)  senior master when he first encountered Tai chi (Master Waysun Liao). Master Liao asked him to strike him anywhere, as a demo. As he struck Master Liao with a liver kite, ML just turned on golden bell and my Master went flying 15-20 ft upon contact (i.e. his strike contacting Master Liao). He had to give up the external stuff and learnt tai chi.

 

I'm not kidding you when I tell you that he has power. I've not encountered power like his from anyone else (and I've been fa-jin'ed by a few people since I met him). Daoist martial arts are not like external martial arts. Especially with an art like taijiquan, without giving up external strength, one cannot develop real internal power (empty force). If we are practicing taijiquan and then going and pumping weights and doing push ups etc, we can't develop the power and sensitivity that taijiquan is famous for...

 

 

I think you are mixing up your terms and falling into the already made trap of what is external and what is internal. Lets start with the basics.

 

A Daoist art is like the yin/yang symbol and the Hexagrams around it. If something is practiced only in one way it is not balanced; one cannot acquire internal power (there are lots of differing understandings and opinions on what this is) by simply doing slow relaxed exercise.

Lets look at the basic process of Jin: The process involves the slowly building up of electricity. Electricity powers our bodies and of course more importantly our muscles. This electricity comes from the food, water and breath that we take. We must stimulate it, we must nurture it, etc etc. How we do this is specific exercises to develop it, that's not just doing Tai Ji or any other art. The clue I have already given. So we may use the muscles in these exercises which may get stronger, it is the electricity that we are trying to generate more. So when I have demonstrated internal power, I have used heavy inanimate objects, moved them with one or two fingers in a totally relaxed and upright stance. I have then got others to use both hands and a strong stance to move the same object which they could slightly or not at all. Now I am using the power I would use to strike, block etc. in an external way. I am externalising internal power that has been developed by external means.

Your story does not add up for it would mean that the recent defeat of the top Tai Ji Master would take up MMA? No it was that his practice was not as focused on martial means and he did not know how to externalise internal power. Nor did he have the iron palm/arm which would have made his blocks very painful to the MMA guy. It is really easy to push people over, especially when they do not resist and do not stand in a strong stance. Even a small child can do it, its all about mechanics. No one yet has shown me that they can really externalise internal power, by not using a compliant student or weak legged person. This is why when I used to teach many years ago, I would demonstrate the power using only very heavy objects and certainly not people. 

[doc benway]

1 hour ago, morning dew said:

 

Woah, that first video blew me away. It's probably my favourite one so far on here. She's amazing.  

 

That second one was very interesting. It's very similar to what we do (although he seemed to stop a bit short and miss a few bits out unless he was doing them differently).

 

That first form is quite interesting and beautiful.

My only criticism is that when she is issuing force (fajin), she doesn't seem to get her body and waist into it enough.

Fajin is an expression of whole body unified force.

It seems to be too much coming from the arms and legs in her form.

That said, I'm always cautious about judging others' forms, especially on video. 

Some folks have great form, can't push their way out of a paper bag.

Others have crappy form and have kicked my ass...

[Taomeow]

18 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

I've never seen anything like this in Tai Chi before. It looks quite amazing.

 

PS Yeah, that jump looks pretty tough, especially with the punch done right as well at the end of it.

 

 I'm glad you like it.  And after the long form it has this advantage of being short...  good for slackers... ...unless you do it the way it's done in Chen village, long then short back to back without stopping, the last move of the long form turns into the first move of the short...  then repeat the sequence three times, long then short then long, etc.  Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't...    

 

But seriously, it is only done "correctly" when it is done internally.  One way to confirm that you're doing it correctly (or find out you're not) is to check your vitals right after you're done -- if your heart rate and respiration rate increased, you're not doing it correctly.  The mantra of taiji classics, "use qi not li," is very verifiable.  If you use li, your vitals will go up, as from a sports performance.  If you use qi, they will stay put as though you're sitting in a chair meditating rather than jumping and kicking and punching. 

 

 

[dwai]

1 hour ago, flowing hands said:

 

I think you are mixing up your terms and falling into the already made trap of what is external and what is internal. Lets start with the basics.

 

A Daoist art is like the yin/yang symbol and the Hexagrams around it. If something is practiced only in one way it is not balanced; one cannot acquire internal power (there are lots of differing understandings and opinions on what this is) by simply doing slow relaxed exercise.

Lets look at the basic process of Jin: The process involves the slowly building up of electricity. Electricity powers our bodies and of course more importantly our muscles. This electricity comes from the food, water and breath that we take. We must stimulate it, we must nurture it, etc etc. How we do this is specific exercises to develop it, that's not just doing Tai Ji or any other art. The clue I have already given. So we may use the muscles in these exercises which may get stronger, it is the electricity that we are trying to generate more. So when I have demonstrated internal power, I have used heavy inanimate objects, moved them with one or two fingers in a totally relaxed and upright stance. I have then got others to use both hands and a strong stance to move the same object which they could slightly or not at all. Now I am using the power I would use to strike, block etc. in an external way. I am externalising internal power that has been developed by external means.

Your story does not add up for it would mean that the recent defeat of the top Tai Ji Master would take up MMA? No it was that his practice was not as focused on martial means and he did not know how to externalise internal power. Nor did he have the iron palm/arm which would have made his blocks very painful to the MMA guy. It is really easy to push people over, especially when they do not resist and do not stand in a strong stance. Even a small child can do it, its all about mechanics. No one yet has shown me that they can really externalise internal power, by not using a compliant student or weak legged person. This is why when I used to teach many years ago, I would demonstrate the power using only very heavy objects and certainly not people. 

That "Taiji Master" really was no master at all, imho.

 

The way we are told is this - we convert Qi to jin. The explanation is that just like gasoline is burnt to generate power, Qi is "burnt" to generate Jin. Jin is stored in the bone marrow. 

 

The method for "burning" Qi in our system is condensing. It is condensed and vibrated and stored in the bone marrow. It really has nothing to do with "physical" strength at all. There's no physical "squeezing" involved (like how a recently notorious person whose name rhymes with Larry Flyman demonstrates in his videos), rather the squeezing and vibration is activated mentally and gently.

 

This condensing happens on its own too, if one cultivates sung, only it takes longer to happen. Given that it is a natural process, it is considered safer to do it this way (diligent practice of 7-10 years). It manifests itself as Peng in the body/energy field of the practitioner. Internally it feels like a density falling into the core of the body (bone marrows, etc). It also generates a feeling of whole body connectedness...like there's silk under our skin (I think that's the feeling of fascia).

 

 

[Starjumper]

Excellent!

 

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

The way we are told is this - we convert Qi to jin. The explanation is that just like gasoline is burnt to generate power, Qi is "burnt" to generate Jin. Jin is stored in the bone marrow. 

 

My teacher told me that the inside of the bones are like batteries where we can store energy, so now I understand  what he was referring to in 'common' terminology.  This is more corroboration.

 

19 minutes ago, dwai said:

The method for "burning" Qi in our system is condensing. It is condensed and vibrated and stored in the bone marrow. It really has nothing to do with "physical" strength at all. There's no physical "squeezing" involved (like how a recently notorious person whose name rhymes with Larry Flyman demonstrates in his videos), rather the squeezing and vibration is activated mentally and gently.

 

 

Haha, Larry Flyman.  Like!

 

In my system too, there is no squeezing involved because it requires tension and tension was forbidden in our system, rather it is done with a gentle breathing technique.  We also use vibrating methods but teacher didn't say why.  It is said in China though, that shaking the body cures all sickness, so that's another facet of a similar thing.  My teacher never spoke of jin or shen, only 'energy'.

[flowing hands]

1 minute ago, dwai said:

That "Taiji Master" really was no master at all, imho.

 

The way we are told is this - we convert Qi to jin. The explanation is that just like gasoline is burnt to generate power, Qi is "burnt" to generate Jin. Jin is stored in the bone marrow. 

 

The method for "burning" Qi in our system is condensing. It is condensed and vibrated and stored in the bone marrow. It really has nothing to do with "physical" strength at all. There's no physical "squeezing" involved (like how a recently notorious person whose name rhymes with Larry Flyman demonstrates in his videos), rather the squeezing and vibration is activated mentally and gently.

 

This condensing happens on its own too, if one cultivates sung, only it takes longer to happen. Given that it is a natural process, it is considered safer to do it this way (diligent practice of 7-10 years). It manifests itself as Peng in the body/energy field of the practitioner. Internally it feels like a density falling into the core of the body (bone marrows, etc). It also generates a feeling of whole body connectedness...like there's silk under our skin (I think that's the feeling of fascia).

 

 

I think what you have been told is one stock way of telling people, but the truth actually is very different. The Chinese are very good at hiding the real truth and deceiving others in keeping secrets away from their enemies. So they make up some process that actually really doesn't exist and the real truth is lost and a great many of the Chinese no longer know what actually is the truth. What you say is typical of the type of story.

The real truth lies in science and not unproven myths and it is very simple. The most important aspects are the development of the lower dan tien; when you start exercising this properly, your genitals will recede towards the inside of your body. Now the lower dan tien is the battery of life. This battery is governed by your Jing or genetics from your family. Some people can start off with very good jing, others not so. So one has to start by stimulating this battery and the very source of its power and as one goes on over the years one can easily feel this power, control it, send it out and lots of other things. It is like sending volts through your body but you have control of them. These volts make your bones strong, your sinew and muscles strong when you want them to be for this is the very force that makes them move and be alive. So over the years of practice and cultivation the volts in the battery get bigger and bigger and so does the potency.

Now I could tell you this in the most flowery of language and terms and leave bits out and really who would be the wiser.

The Immortal Masters do not lie and when they teach you, they teach you properly, so what I am saying is what they taught me and what I have been cultivating for all these years. All I can say is results start coming very quickly, because it is explained properly, scientifically and not lost in a load of myth and mistruth.