What's your Tai Chi (short) form like?

[dwai]

1 minute ago, steve said:

I'd like to offer some opposing viewpoints to balance the discussion.

 

Wu style taijiquan has a history of being esteemed for martial efficacy. I made the point in another thread that, unlike in other martial arts, taijiquan form practice is not simply practicing postures that are martially effective. It is about cultivating coordination and integration of body, mind, and energy in order to generate whole body power whether sensing or issuing. Whether the martial intent of the postures is explicitly obvious is irrelevant, neigong and qigong combined with body movement is the cultivation. The overtly martial practice takes an entirely different form - solo drills, partner drills, body toughening, strength training, and so forth. 

 

I think the Wu videos posted are excellent. The first one maybe a little stiff. Both very powerful and integrated. 

I learned about Wu to judge international taijiquan forms and tui shou competition and know some masterful and powerful Wu stylists. Beware of underestimating a style by its form, you may simply not understand it. I learned that lesson in pushing competition.

 

Here's an old Wu military video:

 

 

 

 

Bruce Frantzis has a large and dedicated following for good reason. He's a powerful and dedicated practitioner with excellent lineage. No teacher can please everyone and each of us needs something different out of our schools and styles and teachers. No one benefits from speaking poorly of others.

 

I don't study Wu and I've never trained with Bruce but I know quality when I see it. 

 

 

 

 

 

I'll +1 that. Wu style is pretty effective. I know a few Wu stylists and they have very good game. It looks strange because Wu is taught and learnt in small frame. But as we know, we can practice taijiquan in medium, large and small frames, medium, low and high stances (and slow, medium or fast speeds as well).

 

[Starjumper]

33 minutes ago, steve said:

I'd like to offer some opposing viewpoints to balance the discussion.

 

Wu style taijiquan has a history of being esteemed for martial efficacy. I made the point in another thread that, unlike in other martial arts, taijiquan form practice is not simply practicing postures that are martially effective. It is about cultivating coordination and integration of body, mind, and energy in order to generate whole body power whether sensing or issuing. Whether the martial intent of the postures is explicitly obvious is irrelevant, neigong and qigong combined with body movement is the cultivation. The overtly martial practice takes an entirely different form - solo drills, partner drills, body toughening, strength training, and so forth. 

 

I think the Wu videos posted are excellent. The first one maybe a little stiff. Both very powerful and integrated. 

I learned about Wu to judge international taijiquan forms and tui shou competition and know some masterful and powerful Wu stylists. Beware of underestimating a style by its form, you may simply not understand it. I learned that lesson in pushing competition.

 

Bruce Frantzis has a large and dedicated following for good reason. He's a powerful and dedicated practitioner with excellent lineage. No teacher can please everyone and each of us needs something different out of our schools and styles and teachers. No one benefits from speaking poorly of others.

 

I don't study Wu and I've never trained with Bruce but I know quality when I see it. 

 

Thank you for your clarifications.  I had heard before that Wu style is effective for combat but forgot, and I'll admit to commenting on these two things from a viewpoint of limited experience in them.  

 

I like that video a lot and it looks like an excellent system for cultivating what's needed for self defense, but it doesn't look anything like what I saw in the videos above.  Why so different?

 

Concerning BK, what i know about what he teaches is what one of his students showed me, I put that together with what I saw in those videos and it just seemed so weak.  Also, people who become popular via writing books are always suspect from my point of view.  If I told you some other things I was told about him it might cause a shit storm here, so I won't.

 

Again, thanks for sharing.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2017 by Starjumper

[doc benway]

The old video is showing the fast form for martial training.

It's done like you're pushing hands... shadow boxing... 

The slow form is more for cultivation of qi. 

 

Yeah, I've heard shit about Bruce too, and others... 

People don't always have their expectations satisfied.

Whose problem is that?

 

Anyway - thanks for the kind response.

 

 

 

 

 

[morning dew]

5 hours ago, Starjumper said:

Ok Morning Dew,  here's the Chen video I made yesterday afternoon.  This form is kind of short because my teacher, Madam Gao Fu passed away after only teaching me less than half of the whole form.  I think it has all you really need to 'get it'.   Gao Fu was the sweetest little old grandma type that you could ever hope to meet, but even at 88 she had a wicked fajin in her punch, the kind that would make lots of little old ladies shatter into pieces.   Gao Fu was student of Feng Zhiqiang, and was an official National living Treasure of China.  She said that her master wrote a book but that she never read it because she was always learning from him in person.  Later when she moved to Seattle she read the book and she told us that she had been doing it all wrong all these years and this time she was going to teach it right!  Unfortunately she got less than half way through the form with the 'right' way.  You might need to watch this twice because the first time the cats may be too distracting.    Warning -  this does not look like most videos of Chen style that you will find because I like to show some of the variations that have more combat energy ... or something.  So ya, doing it wrong again  =)

 

The cats names are Tiger and Squeeky!

 

 

 

Very interesting to watch this (and your cats  ). 

[Miffymog]

 

Say you play a musical instrument as fast as you can, you can keep the tune and show off your technical abilities, but it makes it more difficult to express your emotions. If you play a tune at 70% of the speed you are capable of, that leaves the rest of your ability to naturally express your emotion.

 

I remember reading an article that said around 70 years ago, it was not an issue if a concert pianist made a mistake. This meant that the pianist could throw all their emotion into the performance with some abandon. Where as now, it is really frowned upon if any mistake is made, which means there's not quite the same passion in the performance.

 

So, there are those who much prefer recordings from the past because they don't mind having some mistakes because they like the extra passion. It's always interesting looking at recordings from the past because the attitudes and culture was so different and you get insight to this.

 

I have admit, I know very little about forms, but that old recording was fascinating.
 

[silent thunder]

Your comments remind me of Jamie Foxx.

When he was auditioning to play the role of Ray Charles, the Producers wanted him, but he needed to meet Ray and get his approval.

 

So Jamie met with Ray and they hung out and then he wanted to hear Jamie play.

 

So Jamie laid out his 'best' and Ray stopped him.

 

(paraphrase) "no no no no... you can't just play the notes... let go man... feeeeel it.  It doesn't matter if you get every note right... but if you don't feel every note, it won't matter."

 

So Jamie cut loose and Ray smiled that smile and said "Yea Baby! You GOT IT!"

and off Jamie went to an oscar worthy performance.

[silent thunder]

Don't think... feeeeeel.  It's like a finger pointing to the moon.  Don't look at the finger, or you miss all the heavenly glory.  ~Master Bruce Lee

[doc benway]

5 hours ago, dwai said:

I'll +1 that. Wu style is pretty effective. I know a few Wu stylists and they have very good game. It looks strange because Wu is taught and learnt in small frame. But as we know, we can practice taijiquan in medium, large and small frames, medium, low and high stances (and slow, medium or fast speeds as well).

 

 

The more "real" the situation, the smaller the frame needs to be, I think that's why Wu is so effective.

 

You can't move quickly in large frame, but it's great for training power, examples Yang Chen Fu and Chen

Medium frame is a nice compromise, powerful yet flexible - great training tool, example Chen Pan Ling and Yang old styles

Small frame in some ways is the highest level of practice, integrating the power generation with stances that allow for utility of movement, examples Wu and Chen

[doc benway]

Chen small frame

 

 

[Taomeow]

This is my short form, Chen Laojia Erlu, aka Cannon Fist.  Still working on that jump at 1:45.  

 

 

[Seatle185]

 

[Starjumper]

On 7/15/2017 at 11:58 AM, steve said:

The old video is showing the fast form for martial training.

It's done like you're pushing hands... shadow boxing... 

The slow form is more for cultivation of qi.

 

Since moving to a small town in Ecuador I find there is no one here who wants to put forth the effort to learn tai chi, but there were some people who wanted to 'do' it  , a couple of times in their whole life, as long as it was free.  So for them I started doing my Chen form very slowly, with larger circles, and with no fast movements or accelerations.  Doing Chen very slowly felt like a  real good chi kung, better than doing Yang style slowly, which is how Yang starts anyway.  In my opinion doing tai chi slowly is better for energy and health than a lot of the chi kung that's out there. Maybe I'll make a video of slow boring Chen this afternoon, have to wait till after sunset to go out on the terrace.

[morning dew]

On 2017-7-15 at 3:08 PM, Starjumper said:

 

The more I see and learn about that guy's chi kung the more I see he's presenting a glaring case of extremely wimpy chi kung.  I have a student here who told me what he was learning from him and it was absolutely dismal!  Either he actually knows little or he's hiding what he knows.   You can do MUCH better by learning some real tai chi, like Yang or Chen style, from just about any accomplished teacher.  As a chi kung system what I see in the first video is pointless and lifeless.  Pointless because although it is an ok moving meditation there is almost no focus on moving energy in any way that is of benefit to health and zero benefit for cultivating chi power, other than the fact that it is a moving meditation, which has some health benefit of it's own.

 

On 2017-7-15 at 3:22 PM, Miffymog said:

 

 

 

Having read some of his books, I can see where you are coming from. It is possibly due to him just trying to make the techniques as palatable and as easy to access for westerners as possible. Doing some kind of form is better than doing nothing ...

 

 

 

On 2017-7-15 at 3:35 PM, Starjumper said:

The main benefit I see from that form is that when the palms of the hands face downwards it helps to get rid of sick energy, that is all, and there is some movement.  A much more effective way to accomplish the same thing is simply repeating the closing movement of most tai chi forms ... and chi kung forms too.  The thing is that if you don't have much sick energy to dispose of then you would be like throwing away good energy.  Same thing with his sitting meditations, hands facing downward resting on legs or lap is good for relaxing or getting rid of sick energy, but those are the wimpiest and lowest energy versions of that kind of sitting meditation posture.

 

The thing is that while he needs to do a lot of that for his own health, maybe you don't need that.

 

Real tai chi has a focus on the intent of each movement, in other words how the movement would be used to hit someone.  When you have intent then you can move in a more 'correct' fashion because you understand the purpose of the movement, which is bette than waving arms.  When you move in the correct fashion, with intent, then that is much more effective for health than waving arms around without intent.

 

You can do a lot better just by doing Mr. Lin's 'Moving Yin and Yang'  which is, believe it or not, a variation of Cloud Hands.

 

Okay, I'm sensing you're not a Bruce Frantzis fan, haha!  

 

A few thoughts:

Because I have fascia and muscle problems, it has helped my health on a 'gross' physical level. A year ago I could do only seated Eight Pieces of Brocades and a few years before that I couldn't even do it seated. Now I've got to the point where I can go through the short form once before needing to take a break and sit down. Part of this progress is simply due to opening/loosening out my body through things like Wu Tai Chi and Cloud Hands. So I would have to agree with Miffymog in my particular case.

 

I'm not worried about energy work or martial arts, yet; right now I'm literally just concerned with getting to grips with the basic shape and stretching out my body. Even Yang looks like it may be too 'big frame' for me, so I don't really have much choice anyway right now. 

 

Another thing I'd say is Bruce Frantzis isn't teaching me himself. My teacher isn't a direct clone; for example, he's done around five years of a Yang-derivative Tai Chi style. So things like this are going to influence his teaching.

 

As I said to Flowing Hands further up, however, I'm not locked into any one style/lineage, so later on I may well switch to something else when I'm able (in fact, if I have to move in October, it's going to force the issue even sooner).

 

Edited July 16, 2017 by morning dew

[morning dew]

On 2017-7-15 at 5:07 PM, steve said:

I'd like to offer some opposing viewpoints to balance the discussion.

 

Wu style taijiquan has a history of being esteemed for martial efficacy. I made the point in another thread that, unlike in other martial arts, taijiquan form practice is not simply practicing postures that are martially effective. It is about cultivating coordination and integration of body, mind, and energy in order to generate whole body power whether sensing or issuing. Whether the martial intent of the postures is explicitly obvious is irrelevant, neigong and qigong combined with body movement is the cultivation. The overtly martial practice takes an entirely different form - solo drills, partner drills, body toughening, strength training, and so forth. 

 

I think the Wu videos posted are excellent. The first one maybe a little stiff. Both very powerful and integrated. 

I learned about Wu to judge international taijiquan forms and tui shou competition and know some masterful and powerful Wu stylists. Beware of underestimating a style by its form, you may simply not understand it. I learned that lesson in pushing competition.

 

Here's an old Wu military video:

 

 

 

 

Bruce Frantzis has a large and dedicated following for good reason. He's a powerful and dedicated practitioner with excellent lineage. No teacher can please everyone and each of us needs something different out of our schools and styles and teachers. No one benefits from speaking poorly of others.

 

I don't study Wu and I've never trained with Bruce but I know quality when I see it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the feedback, Steve.  It was very interesting to read this and your background.

 

Do you have any YouTube videos of some of the Wu stylists you rate?

 

Also, I really liked that video. I was watching it yesterday. I loved all the various contraptions; they were absolutely fascinating to watch. I also found it quite amusing to see him keep getting backrubs from them.  

[morning dew]

On 2017-7-15 at 5:10 PM, dwai said:

I'll +1 that. Wu style is pretty effective. I know a few Wu stylists and they have very good game. It looks strange because Wu is taught and learnt in small frame. But as we know, we can practice taijiquan in medium, large and small frames, medium, low and high stances (and slow, medium or fast speeds as well).

 

 

If you fancy sharing some YouTube videos of these Wu stylists as well, Dwai, I'd be interested to check them out.  

Edited July 16, 2017 by morning dew

[flowing hands]

18 hours ago, Taomeow said:

This is my short form, Chen Laojia Erlu, aka Cannon Fist.  Still working on that jump at 1:45.  

 

 

 

Ah... this is a better form with more martial content, although there are some techniques that have lost it. One rule is never give your opponent all your arm, you will never get it back! Cannon fist should have a bend in the arm. Good to see some stamping, which should be in as basic martial practice. Good stances also and sweeps, this is more like what Tai Ji should be. Add iron palm/fist, iron arm and leg, plus tit da medicine and you have something near what is needed to be a good martial art. When I was in Malaysia, I met an old Sifu who had practiced the iron techniques all his life using the medicine. His Sifu had done the same and when he died he was cremated and the bones of his hands and forearms could not be destroyed by the fire. Combined with his 'jin' and steel fingers and arms a mere touch could be deadly and even a glancing block could easily do severe damage to his opponent.

 

Whoever tells you that just doing slow forms, deep relaxation etc will develop internal power and lightening speed has never experienced what real internal power is. It does not come from doing slow and wooden types of practice. It merely helps the circulation etc and perhaps after some years the 'blood Qi'.

[morning dew]

On 2017-7-15 at 5:40 PM, Starjumper said:

 

Concerning BK, what i know about what he teaches is what one of his students showed me, I put that together with what I saw in those videos and it just seemed so weak.  Also, people who become popular via writing books are always suspect from my point of view.  If I told you some other things I was told about him it might cause a shit storm here, so I won't.

 

Again, thanks for sharing.

 

 

 

On 2017-7-15 at 5:58 PM, steve said:

 

Yeah, I've heard shit about Bruce too, and others... 

People don't always have their expectations satisfied.

Whose problem is that?

 

Anyway - thanks for the kind response.

 

 

 

 

 

 

From my perspective, it doesn't bother me what people want to say about Bruce on this thread (or in general). I would say, however, it might be more productive if we could analyse his videos rather than focusing on his character and hearsay.

 

The first video is Bruce demonstrating Wu short form. To me, this looks awful.

 

 

This second video is him demonstrating Ba Gua and fighting Sam Masich. To me, this looks quite skilful.

 

 

I will, however, leave the proper analysis to the more experienced people.  

 

[Taomeow]

@ flowing hands:

 

I respectfully disagree with everything you said.  

 

You only need dit da medicine with this form if you do it as an external stint.  Which is what someone trained in external arts might attempt, and invariably injure himself.  This form is precise and requires no improvements.  None.  Not when you do it the way it is supposed to be done -- after your long form (Laojia Yilu in this case) has become fully internal, after years of correct practice. 

 

Iron this and iron that methods are for bodies that don't mind trading in sensitivity for insensitivity, losing a chance for exponential speed-of-reaction development, and willing to get used up rather than building internal power slowly but surely (with no age cut-offs or limitations).   I.e. they are not for taoist bodies.  It all depends on what you want to do with yours.  Different strokes... 

Edited July 16, 2017 by Taomeow

[dwai]

17 minutes ago, morning dew said:

 

 

From my perspective, it doesn't bother me what people want to say about Bruce on this thread (or in general). I would say, however, it might be more productive if we could analyse his videos rather than focusing on his character and hearsay.

 

The first video is Bruce demonstrating Wu short form. To me, this looks awful.

 

 

This second video is him demonstrating Ba Gua and fighting Sam Masich. To me, this looks quite skilful.

 

 

I will, however, leave the proper analysis to the more experienced people.  

 

I'm not an analyzer but I would like to point out that the bagua video and the tai chi video are separated by many years (bagua one is older). In between that, I think Bruce underwent several accidents and broke his back and put on weight etc. From what i've heard, its almost a miracle that he is able to do tai chi again (and testament to the healing power of the internal arts).

 

That said, one of my taiji brothers attended a seminar by Bruce at Chicago last year (or was it this year). The feeling he got was that Bruce does a lot of talking (down) at people. I've been influenced by Bruce's books initially in my tai chi training. However, if he indeed was condescending like what I've heard him being described as being, I don't think I'd enjoy taking direct lessons from him.

 

That being said, who knows how our consciousness interprets someone else's personality. I know I've been wrong about people a few times and I'm pretty sure people have been wrong about me as well...

 

[flowing hands]

6 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

@ flowing hands:

 

I respectfully disagree with everything you said.  

 

You only need dit da medicine with this form if you do it as an external stint.  Which is what someone trained in external arts might attempt, and invariably injure himself.  This form is precise and requires no improvements.  None.  Not when you do it the way it is supposed to be done -- after your long form (Laojia Yilu in this case) has become fully internal, after years of correct practice. 

 

Iron this and iron that methods are for bodies that don't mind trading in sensitivity for insensitivity, losing a chance for exponential speed-of-reaction development, and willing to get used up rather than building internal power slowly but surely (with no age cut-offs or limitations).   I.e. they are not for taoist bodies.  It all depends on what you want to do with yours.  Different strokes... 

 This is the usual stuff quoted by many who practice so called 'internal arts'. That's why the Great Tai Ji Master lasted ten seconds with the MMA guy. There is no such thing as internal and external. Think about it, it doesn't make any sense. But a whole lot of stuff has been grown up around making a difference and almost snob value put upon so called 'internal arts' being able to develop so called 'internal power' and better sensitivity, that somehow so called 'external arts 'can't and are somewhat inferior? Complete rubbish. There are literally thousands of styles of Chinese Martial art and all have elements of varying practices that could be labelled internal or external. Wing Quan for instance, 'sticking hands'; is this not sensitivity training? Developing speed, power, jin and sensitivity is the aim. Iron palm gives the practitioner the edge that can be devastating. A mere touch from the trained hands can be deadly. People who train iron palm, and their internal power, have to be very careful in every day life; a mere poke in fun to your friend could lead to extensive internal damage. The internal power comes from where? They are so called external arts so where does this power come from?

[Taomeow]

@ flowing hands:

 

 

[morning dew]

21 hours ago, steve said:

Chen small frame

 

 

 

 

Very nice.  This has to be the most overtly martial short form I've seen so far on this thread: loads of punches and kicks.

[doc benway]

2 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

Thanks for the feedback, Steve.  It was very interesting to read this and your background.

 

Do you have any YouTube videos of some of the Wu stylists you rate?

 

Also, I really liked that video. I was watching it yesterday. I loved all the various contraptions; they were absolutely fascinating to watch. I also found it quite amusing to see him keep getting backrubs from them.  

 

I'm no expert in Wu style. Also, there are a few variations.

 

Here is a nice video of a Wu fast form:

 

 

And another nice older demo, the form starts at 2:40

 

[flowing hands]

19 minutes ago, Apeiron&Peiron said:

If external training is done correctly, sensitivity won't go away. It can (and should) even increase. But, with that, I am not meaning "purely" external training (like many Karatekas do). Lots of iron skills in kung fu have before-and-after qigong sets to heal. Dit-da-jow for immediate on-site soothing and dit-da-wan for enhancing recovery internally. For different skills similar to iron body (e.g. cotton body) this is true to an even greater extent (since cotton body requires sensitivity to be useful in applications).

 

In fact...all of the rather "external" looking styles like tiger claw and praying mantis, which have a lot of hard-style training for their hand-forms, also have a lot of sensitivity training. Praying mantis more-so than tiger claw styles---but the internal and external are combined. External training to strengthen externally; internal training to fortify and heal internally. The two together preserve and (usually) enhance sensitivity. 

 

Granted, this is rather old-school kung fu that most people don't teach any more but it is the traditional way of training...

 

Yes, exactly and how Tai Ji was also taught and the way I was taught. Before starting off one would warm up and exercise the 'blood qi' apply the 'iron fist oil', do the training and finish then with further so called 'internal' exercises to finish. Then new oil applied. If one went too strong and hurt  the part you were conditioning you then applied with ginger the 'iron fist wine'. After some years of training the Sifu would give you iron fist wine that you could take internally. As you progressed and you became more powerful so the 'iron fist' formulae would change and so would the exercises and the things you trained with. In many of the styles I have practiced it is absolutely necessary that one trains in these arts, all have elements of internal power and fingers penetrating the body and power let go to do extensive internal damage to your enemy.

[Starjumper]

3 hours ago, morning dew said:

 

 

From my perspective, it doesn't bother me what people want to say about Bruce on this thread (or in general). I would say, however, it might be more productive if we could analyse his videos rather than focusing on his character and hearsay.

 

The first video is Bruce demonstrating Wu short form. To me, this looks awful.

--------------------------

 

This second video is him demonstrating Ba Gua and fighting Sam Masich. To me, this looks quite skilful.

--------------------------

 

I will, however, leave the proper analysis to the more experienced people.  

 

 

OK, analysis, the tai chi is plenty bad, no doubt about that.  The Bagua is good but nothing extraordinary.  In the demo with Sam Masich keep in mind that the attacker is always at a disadvantage (as long as there is proper separation), and when they come running at you they are at a much greater disadvantage.  In tai chi it's called giving yourself away. or giving them a gift. in addition to that Sam was 'allowing' the demonstration to go forward by allowing Bruce to do his technique.  You can be sure that if it was Bruce giving himself away and running at Sam then Sam could have put him down and controlled the situation just as easily, and less brutally too.  Which brings up the subject of:

 

Brutality.  Bruce brutality, it's his nature.  When he went to China looking for a tai chi teacher he went around to different schools of tai chi brutally beating up some old men.  In tai chi you can control and dominate someone without brutally beating them up, specially if they are old men.  The he went another teacher, Inot certain but I'm pretty sure it was Feng Zhiqiang, my grandfather Chen teacher.  He tried to get brutal with Feng so Feng mopped the floor with him ... without brutally beating him up.  So Bruce found his teacher, or so he thought.  However he didn't respectfully ask to be accepted as a student, it was more like - ok now I'm going to be your student.  Feng almost frew up on the spot, but what he did is he moved his class to a new location and accidentally forgot to tell Bruce where that was.  YAAhahaha.

 

The student I have who was his student told me about the chi kung there and it seemed to mostly consist of small movements  holding a small ball around the solar plexus and tan tien areas.  Super wimpy.

 

So Bruce wrote some books early on when the public was clamoring for them and became a haughty rich guy, haughtier than before probably.   Way back when chi kung was unknown and there were no books except for those from Moretalk Chia, any books were much sought after,  Now there appear to be thousands of books

Edited July 16, 2017 by Starjumper
spelling and clarification.